Lance Armstrong and doping

toutbruntoutbrun Washington, USAPosts: 1,501MI6 Agent
Does it matter if Lance Armstrong is doping? A lot of very credible doctors report once in a while that in their understanding, 95% of riders dope. So who cares if Lance is doping? He's still doing it, winning the TDF and riding his bike 8 hours a day.

Am I the only one who thinks doping isn't really that big of a deal? And what do you think these riders feel - they will always know that whatever they win they cheated and can't truly appreciate it - but if they didn't they couldn't compete because everyone is doing it?
If you can't trust a Swiss banker, what's the world come to?
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Comments

  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    Armstrong did not ride the TOUR de France for years now.
    I am of the opinion that it matters a lot if he and others do dope or not:
    There are riders in the field like Jens Voigt who don't and they are simply being cheated by those who do!
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • 00-Agent00-Agent CaliforniaPosts: 453MI6 Agent
    I have to agree with Bondtoys, I do think it matters for exactly the reason he said. Those who are competing by the rules are being put at a disadvantage. I don't know how you can argue that is fair.

    That being said. Lance last won the Tour in 2005, and hasn't competed in the Tour for the last 3 years. I don't see any reason to continue to pursue charges at this point.
    "A blunt instrument wielded by a Government department. Hard, ruthless, sardonic, fatalistic. He likes gambling, golf, fast motor cars. All his movements are relaxed and economical". Ian Fleming
  • Moore ThanMoore Than EnglandPosts: 3,173MI6 Agent
    It matters greatly whether Lance Armstrong cheated or not. Cycling has been severely tarnished in recent years by doping scandals, the credibility of the Tour de France and the whole of the sport is at stake. If Armstrong cheated then he must be severely punished. The sooner his charges are resolved the better for everyone.

    Cycling does appear slowly to be getting it's house in order. Team Sky are showing the way forward with their scientific approach to racing. Go Wiggo! :)
    Moore Not Less 4371 posts (2002 - 2007) Moore Than (2012 - 2016)
  • 00-Agent00-Agent CaliforniaPosts: 453MI6 Agent
    Lance has been accused and cleared of doping charges repeatedly. Yet it seems every year new accusations are made that he doped, coincidentally these new accusations and new evidence always come to light right before the Tour starts. I am just saying it has been 7 years since the guy won his last Tour. I think it is time to let it go.

    I am a big cycling fan. I hate to see the sports reputation tarnished by doping. I also hate that it seems that no one can win the Tour without being accused of doping. Wiggins will be accused of doping too and it’s a shame.
    "A blunt instrument wielded by a Government department. Hard, ruthless, sardonic, fatalistic. He likes gambling, golf, fast motor cars. All his movements are relaxed and economical". Ian Fleming
  • thesecretagentthesecretagent CornwallPosts: 2,151MI6 Agent
    If you can't ride and get the results you want without doping - get a bloody motorbike!
    Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:

    http://apbateman.com
  • toutbruntoutbrun Washington, USAPosts: 1,501MI6 Agent
    How can you know that they did dope or not? How can you be sure that Sky isn't doping? Truth is, you have no clue, testing doesn't work and they probably do take EPO or testosterone or other stuff. Personally it doesn't matter to me, what they do is incredible and it's not a bit of EPO that's doing that, it's them on their bike.
    If you can't trust a Swiss banker, what's the world come to?
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    After Hamiltons and Hinkapeas statements, one can safely say that Armatrong doped
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Mr BeechMr Beech Florida, USAPosts: 1,749MI6 Agent
    Bondtoys wrote:
    After Hamiltons and Hinkapeas statements, one can safely say that Armatrong doped

    Agreed. It's pretty widely understood at this point.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    P.S
    It was Landis and Hamilton, sorry
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • 00-Agent00-Agent CaliforniaPosts: 453MI6 Agent
    Bondtoys wrote:
    P.S
    It was Landis and Hamilton, sorry

    Two people who swore that they never doped and then admitted that they did. Not much credibility there. Now if Hincapie said Lance doped..... :#
    "A blunt instrument wielded by a Government department. Hard, ruthless, sardonic, fatalistic. He likes gambling, golf, fast motor cars. All his movements are relaxed and economical". Ian Fleming
  • Moore ThanMoore Than EnglandPosts: 3,173MI6 Agent
    toutbrun wrote:
    How can you know that they did dope or not? How can you be sure that Sky isn't doping? Truth is, you have no clue, testing doesn't work and they probably do take EPO or testosterone or other stuff. Personally it doesn't matter to me, what they do is incredible and it's not a bit of EPO that's doing that, it's them on their bike.

    Testing does work, it's getting more sophisticated all the time. Many riders have been caught, including Tour de France winners Floyd Landis and Alberto Contador. The best indicator that cycling is much cleaner now than anytime in the last decade or so comes from the time taken to climb the mountains. Certain mountains are used regularly on the Tour de France and it is taking approx five minutes longer on average to climb them now than a few years ago.
    Moore Not Less 4371 posts (2002 - 2007) Moore Than (2012 - 2016)
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    edited August 2012
    00-Agent wrote:

    Two people who swore that they never doped and then admitted that they did. Not much credibility there. Now if Hincapie said Lance doped..... :#

    Well, it's always the same game: When they are active, they swear that they never doped. When they finish their career, they come out with the truth :D
    It's a bit like with drugdealers. When they are active, they hardly admit what they are doing ;)
    And Armstrong has been proven of EPO in his urine from 1999 in 2005 and only escaped for formal reasons.

    Let's wait until Hincapie throws the towel, we'll hear some interesting stories I bet :D
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    Moore Than wrote:
    Testing does work, it's getting more sophisticated all the time. Many riders have been caught, including Tour de France winners Floyd Landis and Alberto Contador. The best indicator that cycling is much cleaner now than anytime in the last decade or so comes from the time taken to climb the mountains. Certain mountains are used regularly on the Tour de France and it is taking approx five minutes longer on average to climb them now than a few years ago.

    I doubt that testing really works. They only catch the stupidest riders immediately.
    Good thing is that they keep the blood and urine samples and years later when the analysis methods are utd we see the truth (however riders like Armstrong object that the samples "have not been maintained competently" :v )
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • toutbruntoutbrun Washington, USAPosts: 1,501MI6 Agent
    It's proven that if you use EPO wisely (and other drugs), they can't detect it. Or own blood transfusion, etc. And maybe they'll catch you one day (MAYBE), but by then you're a champion.

    If you have the choice between not being a champion and being a champion with a bit of EPO, I'm not sure it's a choice.

    And again, people see these drugs as if it does the work for them... I'll pay for your EPO, why don't you go ride the TDF?
    If you can't trust a Swiss banker, what's the world come to?
  • Ens007Ens007 EnglandPosts: 863MI6 Agent
    Bondtoys wrote:
    Moore Than wrote:
    Testing does work, it's getting more sophisticated all the time. Many riders have been caught, including Tour de France winners Floyd Landis and Alberto Contador. The best indicator that cycling is much cleaner now than anytime in the last decade or so comes from the time taken to climb the mountains. Certain mountains are used regularly on the Tour de France and it is taking approx five minutes longer on average to climb them now than a few years ago.

    I doubt that testing really works. They only catch the stupidest riders immediately.
    Good thing is that they keep the blood and urine samples and years later when the analysis methods are utd we see the truth (however riders like Armstrong object that the samples "have not been maintained competently" :v )

    So the biggest name in the sport, (as well as being one of the most famous soortsmen - ever) supposedly gives a positive test, yet the lab / testers don't think that it warrants proper procedure or practice?? Hmmmm. Seems more than a little odd to me.

    They've been trying to nail Armstrong's hat on for years, yet to my knowledge there's no formal, undisputed positive test on record. A number of discredited riders are now willing to testify against him in order to avoid lifetime bans. As mentioned above, these guys lied about their own actions, so why believe them now??

    Hand on heart my judgment is more than a tad clouded, as Lance is a huge hero to me, so I hope to god he's not guilty. Reading between the lines that my rose-tinted glasses allow there does appear to be smoke, however the witch hunt, quality of witnesses & methods adopted seem to be beyond comprehension to me.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    Like I have said, they tested a 1999 Armstrong urine sample EPO positive in 2005.
    And Armstrong only got away by accusing the lab for not having stored the sample properly.

    Additionally after all scandals with EPO in training periods, blood transfusions before or after races and stuff, we have an idea how advanced doping works and it's very likely that the smart ones (and I consider Armstrong to be one of the smartest in the field) get away with it.

    However, we'll know the truth in some years as testing methods improve as well ;)

    Armstrong used to have my utmost respect in the late 90s but I am not wearing my yellow LIVESTRONG bracelet for a very long time anymore and that's sad.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Ens007Ens007 EnglandPosts: 863MI6 Agent
    But why wouldn't they store it properly?? It could be one, if not the biggest story in sport, yet they don't bother following even the most basic of protocols. Doesn't make sense to me whatsoever. I'm sure any sportsman or woman would challenge the results on this basis. There was even talk that the samples weren't even labelled or handled in anything like a fit & proper manner, in addition to the lack of most basic storage / refrigeration.

    In addition, if Armstrong is such a prolific drug taker, why in all these years has no bona-fide positive result emerged?? Yes there's masking agents & techniques, but surely there would have been some indisputable indication prior to this recent story?? I can't buy the fact that its been a cover up all along, as surely he's too big a name in the media world that someone would see the opportunity to try to cash in on??

    IMO the wristband signifies so much more than Armstrong. To me it's a symbol of trying to beat a disease that affects too many & it's association with Armstrong has assisted in bringing it to the fore of people's minds. Like you've said though, it's very sad you don't feel you can wear it any longer.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    edited August 2012
    It's quite the opposite:

    After the EPO test was positive, Armstrong accused them for having stored the sample improperly which voids the entire test.
    And as the lab could not prove that it has been stored properly the last 6 years, the case has dropped.

    And I remember that after EVERY stage of the 2000 TdF, Armstrong dissapeared immediately intothe tour bus. he says, that he took a shower, many people say, that he's gotten himself prepared for the doping test.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Mr BeechMr Beech Florida, USAPosts: 1,749MI6 Agent
    Perhaps it is just because I am not in the same position as these athletes, but I can't imagine it feels rewarding or special to dope your way to a win against many honest athletes.

    I'd just feel lame and guilty.
  • 00-Agent00-Agent CaliforniaPosts: 453MI6 Agent
    I hope Lance didn't dope and I have to admit that I have my doubts. However I am giving the guy the benefit of the doubt.

    Many of the riders Lance had rode against in his Tour victories have been proven to be dopers, including Jan Ullrich. This raises two questions in my mind.

    First, are they keeping all riders samples for 7 years and then retesting them. If we are going to have a level playing field they should.

    Second, and more disturbing to me, is if great riders like Jan were competing against Armstrong while doping how did he beat them? Lets say doping gives you 5% better performance, and yet Lance beats his nearest rival by 2-3% Was Lance really 7-8% better than Jan Ullrich? Maybe, and I hope so, but in elite sports usually the best athlete is just a little better than his nearest rival.
    "A blunt instrument wielded by a Government department. Hard, ruthless, sardonic, fatalistic. He likes gambling, golf, fast motor cars. All his movements are relaxed and economical". Ian Fleming
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    Jan Ulrich was relatively lazy but great talent.
    He still keeps on telling that " he did not cheat anyone" when asked, if he doped which leaves him the escape path that if most of the other guys in the field doped, he did not cheat them by doing the same.

    There is no 100% evidence that he doped but everything leads to his involvement in doping - same with Armstrong - who always was a step smarter than Ulrich.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • 00730073 COPPosts: 1,067MI6 Agent
    toutbrun wrote:
    Does it matter if Lance Armstrong is doping? A lot of very credible doctors report once in a while that in their understanding, 95% of riders dope. So who cares if Lance is doping? He's still doing it, winning the TDF and riding his bike 8 hours a day.

    Am I the only one who thinks doping isn't really that big of a deal? And what do you think these riders feel - they will always know that whatever they win they cheated and can't truly appreciate it - but if they didn't they couldn't compete because everyone is doing it?


    He was on chemo! :p


    No matter what, Lance Armstrong edition of the Nikes Just Do It ads had IMHO the greatest impact. If I remember correctly it went something like: "According to the latest cancer statistics, Lance Armstrong is neither alive, nor is he competing in Tour de France. Just do It.
    "I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
    -Mr Arlington Beech
  • Moore ThanMoore Than EnglandPosts: 3,173MI6 Agent
    I am a little surprised that Lance Armstrong has decided he will no longer fight the charges, given how vigorously he has defended himself up to this point. I guess he knew the righting was on the wall. Reaction has been mixed so far, but it does appear Armstrong will continue to have a good deal of support from many of his fans.
    Moore Not Less 4371 posts (2002 - 2007) Moore Than (2012 - 2016)
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    Well, someone who took every turn possible to infuence the law for his own good giving up now?

    I'd say that he realized that the end of his lies where near and now he's looking for an elegant way to get out of his own construction ;)
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • 00-Agent00-Agent CaliforniaPosts: 453MI6 Agent
    Sad news....and not just because Bondtoys gets to gloat. :))
    "A blunt instrument wielded by a Government department. Hard, ruthless, sardonic, fatalistic. He likes gambling, golf, fast motor cars. All his movements are relaxed and economical". Ian Fleming
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    believe me, there is no gloating from my side.

    I used to admire Armstrong for his incredible vita, for his passionate training quantities. I never admired Ulrich as he was simply lazy.
    I know exactly how it feels when all this admiration falls into pieces.

    On the other hand; I learned how Armstrong kind of occupied the UCI with all his influence and lawyers and how he treated many high-profile journalists when they tried to find out what really happened.
    Armstrong fought the entire german and many parts of the european press in his last years in a way of a russian dictator only to prevent that the truth about him came out.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • toutbruntoutbrun Washington, USAPosts: 1,501MI6 Agent
    Lance keeps support from Nike and other sponsors - NYT
    If you can't trust a Swiss banker, what's the world come to?
  • Moore ThanMoore Than EnglandPosts: 3,173MI6 Agent
    The United States Anti-Doping Agency is preparing to reveal it's evidence against Lance Armstrong. The Colorado based Agency realises it must do more to convince a divided public it has compelling and ultimately damning evidence. Some of the story will emerge during the public hearings that have been requested by Armstrong's manager, a coach, and a Doctor. But that is unlikely to be before the end of this year. However, significant parts of the evidence against Armstrong will be made public before those hearings via the media or in communication with the UCI (Cycling's governing body).

    The FULL article.
    Lance Armstrong: Usada will reveal doping evidence
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19433990
    Moore Not Less 4371 posts (2002 - 2007) Moore Than (2012 - 2016)
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