A question for the AVTAK haters

Jarvio

So it's no secret that I love AVTAK and think it's the most underrated film in the franchise. But unfortunately, so many rank it as one of the worst.

For those people that hate it / dislike it / just rank it low:

Where would the film rank with you if the following three changes were made?:

1 - California girls music removed from the PTS
2 - Roger Moore given better makeup/facelift or whatever, so he looks the same age as he did in OP
3 - Someone decent cast as Stacey Sutton instead of Tanya Roberts

These seem to be the three most criticized things from the film, so just curious to see where it would rank with people if those three changes were made?

77007

Still dead last. :007)

Thunderpussy

Well I for one quite like AVTAK.
and think the changes mentioned would help
( although after Skyfall, an aging Bond. should cause less screaming ) )
Stacy Sutton makes Mary Goodnight look like a Nuclear scientist.

chrisisall

Thunderpussy wrote:

Stacy Sutton makes Mary Goodnight look like a Nuclear scientist.

I wouldn't go that far... )
Mainly my problem is Moore's facelift- he looked fine in OP IMO....
The Beach Boys song is like the Tarzan yell; I can get over it.
...and sleeping with Mayday... that was kind of not cool... only because Moore was clearly not into it...

Thunderpussy

I think in a situation like that You do what Mayday Tells you to. )

chrisisall

Thunderpussy wrote:

I think in a situation like that You do what Mayday Tells you to. )

Yeah, but you get INTO it!!!!

Dalkowski110

Jarvio wrote:

1 - California girls music removed from the PTS
2 - Roger Moore given better makeup/facelift or whatever, so he looks the same age as he did in OP
3 - Someone decent cast as Stacey Sutton instead of Tanya Roberts

I would bump it up a bit (EDIT: and if you look at my ranking of it recently, it's quite a bit higher than most of the lists that tend to favor Fleming Bonds). I would also add in "remove or alter the Bond/May Day scene" simply because it didn't advance either one of their goals and makes May Day look like she has a brief lapse of incompetence. In the case of Fiona Volpe in TB, it was to lull Bond into a false sense of security/you got the feeling Bond didn't know quite how bad she was (although then delivered a truly terrific comeback once he found out.). You also get the same vibe from Helga Brandt in YOLT. In TWINE, Elektra King literally digresses the tone of the film to explain why. Yet, it just sorta happened/we don't get a reason why other than Max Zorin told her to entertain him. In my opinion, you give Zorin and/or May Day a better motive, at least, if you're keeping this in the film.

Stacey Sutton had to be more assertive. I've actually said before that Tanya Roberts practically ruined the film, so casting someone more assertive as her would without question have helped.

I didn't mind California Girls all that much, honestly. As chrisisall said, if this was the only thing wrong with the film, I'd have said it weakened PTS and left it at that.

Blackleiter

The absence of Tanya Roberts might have given it a slight uptick (depending upon who was cast in her place), but AVTAK would still be at the bottom of my list. For me, the biggest problem besides the way too old Roger Moore, who was no great shakes Bond when he was younger, is that the movie is BORING!

Dutchfinger

I would have to agree on Blackleiter on the boring factor... Last December, me and a friend watched all Bond movies chronologicly over the course of a couple of weeks.. I remember very vividly which movies we had a blast with, and which movies we were a little bit more bored with. We were kind of bored with A view to a Kill. The three points you mentioned would help it a bit, (mainly casting someone else for Stacey stutton.) And it's definitely not the worst Bond movie either... Christopher Walken lifts it up a lot as well... But I feel like the plot is the main factor, it kind of feels like 'this has been done before'... Some scenes drag along quite slowly. Me and my friend could have also been quite bored with it, since it was the seventh Roger Moore film we saw over a couple of days, and it doesn't help that AVTAK is one of the weaker one's he has done... (IMO of course )


Oh, by the way, by no means would I call myself an AVTAK hater!

Peppermill

I really don't mind the Beach Boys music. Remember, this is the first time the big public saw something that resembled snowboarding. It might look and sound silly now, but in 1985 this was something new. I was 2 years old at the time so I have no way of knowing, but I could imagine that this scene, along with the music, got a big laugh in cinemas.

I agree Roger Moore might have stayed on for one movie too many.

Tanya Robberts was just awful IMHO. Too young for Moore to be believable (I read somewhere that Sir Roger decided this would be his last movie when he realized that Tanya Robberts mom was younger than he was), in no way did she ever remotely looked/acted like a smart geologist and I really really really HATE her voice and screaming. So yes, maybe another actress could have made a big difference.

But all in all I agree with previous posters that this movie feels a bit 'been there, done that'. So yes, I think (which is something totally different than 'it is') this movie is borderline boring. But it is still a Bond movie so I don't hate it, just not one of my favorites and a bit sad that this was Roger Moore's last movie and not Octopussy that I like a lot better and looked more tailored to his advanced age.

JP

I quite like AVTAK, i enjoy watching it. Its not a classic, but i prefer it to Moonraker and some of the other weaker bond films.

Thunderbird 2

Erm, although I still don't rate AVTAK very highly, I can say I don't hate it anymore. Having seen Skyfall (twice and now reviewed it in the approp thread,) I have realised even if its on, I'll watch AVTAK, and get some measure of value from it. QoS on the other hand, I completely ignore, except for the final scene! I guess enjoying Skyfall has given me a sharper perspective on this.

Plus, I must admit a Blimp is a cool Bond baddie vehicle in its own way!



Re the original questions, - recast the Sutton character, and remove the shots (no pun) of Zorin machine gunning everyone. Considering he was about to drown the place, that was a bit excessive.

Dalkowski110

I'll say this: recasting Stacey Sutton seems to be almost a concensus here. And since when has AJB actually reached a concensus last? )

Q and M

i love A View To A Kill but i think it would have been better with Timothy Dalton going up against Christopher Walken

chrisisall

Q and M wrote:

i love A View To A Kill but i think it would have been better with Timothy Dalton going up against Christopher Walken

I'll go so far as to say ANY Bond movie would have been better with Dalton! )

Virgil37

I´m quite fond of AVTAK because it was my first Bond, the first that I watched from start to finish, the first gunbarrel that I saw... Because it was my first, I was completely unbiased. I didn´t even know about Connery (when my dad pointed out that that bald guy with the beard was the first and best Bond, I laughed). I enjoyed it a lot and watched it twice (VHS rental, back in 1986 or so).

That being said, after 25 years of watching Bond movies, and a better knowledge of movies in general, I agree that the movie would be much better without the Beach Boys ruining the tone of the PTS and the John Barry score, and without Roger Moore (57 years old! no facelift would have done it) and with Timothy Dalton/Pierce Brosnan. I must say I quite like Tanya Roberts myself (back in 86 I had a big crush on her).

The rest works for me; great villain, great henchwoman, great theme song (in my top 5), great villain plan, and IMO one classic Bond sequence: I love the Eiffel Tower chase. Just imagine Timothy Dalton there.

BIG TAM

I'd like A VIEW TO A KILL more if there weren't the bizarre tonal shifts between serious & comic. This is a film that for me just isn't the sum of its parts. Jettison the silliness (California Girls, fire truck chase gags) & beef up the last act a bit & you'd have a pretty good effort.

That said it does have an air of being made by people whose collective hearts just aren't in it. Perhaps it was a mid-80s lull.

Moore Than

For sure, it's not without it's problems, but I am still fond of A View To A Kill. I particularly enjoy the scenes on the Eiffel Tower, water pumping station, and the airship at the end of the film. Also, memorable characters such as Max Zorin (one of the best villains), May Day, and Sir Godfrey Tibbett.

In terms of improvement. A script more tailored to an older Bond, giving him a more mature leading lady (like in Octopussy) would have been a good start. Remove California Girls, the keystone cops, re-edit and direct the Paris chase sequence so it's not painfully obvious that it's a stunt double driving the car.

BIG TAM

You make an interesting point, Moore Than; that they should have played on Moore's age rather than pretend he's a 30+ year old bloke all the while. They touched on it in FOR YOUR EYES ONLY but never capitalised on it.

Moore Than

BIG TAM wrote:

You make an interesting point, Moore Than; that they should have played on Moore's age rather than pretend he's a 30+ year old bloke all the while. They touched on it in FOR YOUR EYES ONLY but never capitalised on it.

Indeed, it is not as if the script was already written before Roger signed up for A View To A Kill. From my understanding he signed up well in advance, unlike Octopussy for example.

Virgil37

Moore Than wrote:

In terms of improvement. A script more tailored to an older Bond, giving him a more mature leading lady (like in Octopussy) would have been a good start. Remove California Girls, the keystone cops, re-edit and direct the Paris chase sequence so it's not painfully obvious that it's a stunt double driving the car.

Good points, but in essence, what they needed was a younger Bond. Dalton at 38 years old in 1984-85,almost 20 years younger than 57 year old Moore. I actually can´t understand why he wasn´t replaced after OP beat NSNA.

Moore Than

Virgil37 wrote:

Moore Than wrote:

In terms of improvement. A script more tailored to an older Bond, giving him a more mature leading lady (like in Octopussy) would have been a good start. Remove California Girls, the keystone cops, re-edit and direct the Paris chase sequence so it's not painfully obvious that it's a stunt double driving the car.

Good points, but in essence, what they needed was a younger Bond. Dalton at 38 years old in 1984-85,almost 20 years younger than 57 year old Moore. I actually can´t understand why he wasn´t replaced after OP beat NSNA.

I can easily understand why Roger Moore wasn't replaced. Octopussy beat Never Say Never Again at the box office, Roger won "The Battle of the Bonds" His performance in Octopussy was one of his best as 007.

If there was no Sean Connery/Never Say Never Again, then Roger would probably not have been 007 in Octopussy. Whether it would have been Timothy Dalton instead is another question. He may not have been available, or may not have wanted to take on the role at that time.

Virgil37

Moore Than wrote:

Virgil37 wrote:

Moore Than wrote:

In terms of improvement. A script more tailored to an older Bond, giving him a more mature leading lady (like in Octopussy) would have been a good start. Remove California Girls, the keystone cops, re-edit and direct the Paris chase sequence so it's not painfully obvious that it's a stunt double driving the car.

Good points, but in essence, what they needed was a younger Bond. Dalton at 38 years old in 1984-85,almost 20 years younger than 57 year old Moore. I actually can´t understand why he wasn´t replaced after OP beat NSNA.

I can easily understand why Roger Moore wasn't replaced. Octopussy beat Never Say Never Again at the box office, Roger won "The Battle of the Bonds" His performance in Octopussy was one of his best as 007.

If there was no Sean Connery/Never Say Never Again, then Roger would probably not have been 007 in Octopussy. Whether it would have been Timothy Dalton instead is another question. He may not have been available, or may not have wanted to take on the role at that time.

Well, yes, I see your point. If Moore could beat Connery that meant he was still good business and they could use him again. They focused on the business aspect, and forgot about the age aspect. Another face lift, get rid of the wrinkles on his forehead and do another one.
You´re probably right also about Moore not doing OP had Connery not done NSNA.

Muston

My fav two Moore films are FYEO and AVTAK. Can't put my finger on why I like Moore's final outing, as it isn't a great film, but it was the end of an era and wasn't a bad way for Moore to bite the bullet.

Shady Tree

I don't know why Tanya Roberts gets so panned. Although Stacey is very much in 'The Perils Of Penelope' mode, Tanya looks terrific: having her around is one of the movie's visual strong points, I'd say.

Thunderbird 2

Shady Tree wrote:

Although Stacey is very much in 'The Perils Of Penelope' mode, Tanya looks terrific: having her around is one of the movie's visual strong points, I'd say.

As a fan of Thunderbirds I resent that!! Besides what she looked like is not the issue. The writing of the character and the acting were terrible! Perils of Penelope, bloody cheek!

Dalkowski110

Shady Tree wrote:

Tanya looks terrific

True, but overlooking her poor acting, poor development, and screaming (the AVTAK Drinking Game: each time Stacey Sutton screams, take a swig of beer...you'll be unconscious in no time) is pretty difficult. Honestly, I'd have the film WAY up my personal ranking if someone else capable of coming across as more assertive as opposed to almost totally helpless had been cast. I personally think she hobbled this film worse than Denise Richards hobbled TWINE, albeit not by much.

Shady Tree

BIG TAM wrote:

I'd like A VIEW TO A KILL more if there weren't the bizarre tonal shifts between serious & comic. This is a film that for me just isn't the sum of its parts. Jettison the silliness (California Girls, fire truck chase gags) & beef up the last act a bit & you'd have a pretty good effort.

That said it does have an air of being made by people whose collective hearts just aren't in it. Perhaps it was a mid-80s lull.

I agree that sudden shifts in tone between comedy and seriousness are jarring in AVTAK. This is also true of OPY and, to a lesser extent, TLD.

Also, the 'heritage' inflection in AVTAK's representations of Englishness (Ascot, and all the slow-paced business with Bond/St John-Smythe and Tibbet) lacks lustre compared with 60s Bond's emphasis on fashionable modernity. The film's Merchant Ivory- influenced elements are thrown into relief by the American characters and San Francisco settings of later: the contrast makes the Englishness of Moore's 'senior' Bond (and Patrick Macnee's 'senior' Steed) seem all the more redundant.

Shady Tree wrote:

I don't know why Tanya Roberts gets so panned. Although Stacey is very much in 'The Perils Of Penelope' mode, Tanya looks terrific: having her around is one of the movie's visual strong points, I'd say.

Reading between the lines in Roger Moore's new book, 'Bond On Bond', Moore didn't much rate Tanya Roberts or Grace Jones - but this might have been more to do with behind-the-scenes issues than with their performances per se. On screen, I think Tanya was fine. It wasn't her fault that Moore was too old for his role and that the age gap made them look mismatched.

Thunderbird 2 wrote:

As a fan of Thunderbirds I resent that!!

Stacey was more Penelope Pitstop than Lady Penelope! (Lady Penelope's a FAB character for whom I have nothing but admiration!) :-)

When I say 'The Perils Of Penelope' I'm thinking, really, of all those damsels-in-distress of the silent movies era... the ingenues who were tied down to railway tracks by dastardly, moustache-twiddling villains but rescued in the nick of time by matinee idols.

Thunderbird 2 wrote:

Besides what she looked like is not the issue.

For me it is. I fell in love with her from her first appearance in the movie - her arrival at Zorin's chateau, underscored by a John Barry 'glamour' signature as Bond looks on appreciatively. Barry's enchanting instrumental 'love' arrangement of the AVTAK main theme lends atmosphere, too, to Stacey's romantic scenes with Bond.

I note that Tanya was a former 'Charlie's Angel'. Can we, perhaps, have Minka Kelly as the next Bond Girl?

Dalkowski110 wrote:

The AVTAK Drinking Game: each time Stacey Sutton screams, take a swig of beer...you'll be unconscious in no time.

Stacey was a traditional, unapologetically 'femme' girl in frequent need of rescuing, so it fitted her character that she screamed a lot. Her slightly hoarse voice made her screams distinctive.

If I have a problem with Stacey it has nothing to do with Tanya Roberts' performance. It's to do with the character's position within the film's relational structures. As in LALD, there's a kind of binary opposition in play, mapped onto racial difference, which resolves itself in an implicitly racist way. Stacey is ultimately an imperilled Barbie blonde in a white dress. She's set up in contrast to May Day, an assertive black woman - whose survival the film does not permit. In the final act Zorin subjugates Stacey by pulling her onto his airship, leaving her in need of rescue again, while May Day has decisive agency, saving Silicon Valley by riding Zorin's detonator out of the mine and blowing herself up with it. Yet this is no affirmation of black womanhood. "For all that [May Day] serves to expose the sexual and practical insufficiencies of the English hero ... [her] death, to put it bluntly, expresses the pious hope that both the women's and black liberation movements might take themselves off somewhere into the Californian desert and blow themselves up." (Tony Bennett and Janet Woollacott: 'Bond and Beyond: The Political Career of a Popular Hero', 1987.) Bond movies have thankfully moved on somewhat since the 70s/80s.

bailorg

Jarvio wrote:

2 - Roger Moore given better makeup/facelift or whatever, so he looks the same age as he did in OP

What makes this reason even more prevalent as time goes on is that Bond has been kept so much younger in subsequent films that the later Moore films starting with FYEO, just start getting more and more absurd as time goes on.

Thunderpussy

As we all get Older, we might appreciate an Older Bond.
Let us think We can still do all those sort of things. )

Jarvio

Blackleiter wrote:

The absence of Tanya Roberts might have given it a slight uptick (depending upon who was cast in her place), but AVTAK would still be at the bottom of my list. For me, the biggest problem besides the way too old Roger Moore, who was no great shakes Bond when he was younger, is that the movie is BORING!

Did you really find the brilliant city hall fire, fire engine chase, mine sequence, and golden gate bridge fight boring?