For those interested in whether US Intelligence is authorized or not, please review the following URL: http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/12333.html This was signed by the then President Ronald Regan as a result of the "Church/Pike" commitee hearings. I think you'll find your answer in section 2.11. Cheers.
Bond: "Who would spend $1 million to kill me?"
M: "Jealous husbands. Outraged chefs. Humiliated tailors. The list is endless!"
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,865MI6 Agent
I too am a gun owner who supports responsible gun ownership here in the UK, the law having changed in 2004 so that firearms need a licence renewed every 5 years with references etc. -{
America needs gun reform and if anyone can do anything about it, it'll be President Obama.
Now, back to the topic in hand, please... -{
Just bear in mind that the situation in NI, and the gun laws in NI are quite different to the UK.
Thankfully, shootings are a lot less common in the UK than NI and the states, which is why I believe the need for UK police officers to carry guns is dramatically less.
I imagine they're actually very similar. We here in NI are part of the UK and as a law graduate I can tell you most of our laws are simply put through the photocopier, making them very near to English law, although these 2004 gun laws were an Order in Council, meaning Stormont (which was of course prorogued at that time due to 2002 spying allegations) did not pass said law - but that it came direct from Westminster to the Northern Ireland Office to be implemented - see the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,865MI6 Agent
I too am a gun owner who supports responsible gun ownership here in the UK, the law having changed in 2004 so that firearms need a licence renewed every 5 years with references etc. -{
America needs gun reform and if anyone can do anything about it, it'll be President Obama.
Now, back to the topic in hand, please... -{
Just bear in mind that the situation in NI, and the gun laws in NI are quite different to the UK.
Thankfully, shootings are a lot less common in the UK than NI and the states, which is why I believe the need for UK police officers to carry guns is dramatically less.
I imagine they're actually very similar.
Nah, they're not.
You're allowed pistols for a start aren't you?
Also I was more referring to the social situation than the laws.
Where as America has it's 2nd amendment and a more accepting stance on gun ownership, and NI has had 'the troubles' for the last 30 odd years obviously resulting in a different attitude to violence etc, the UK remains more of a reserved collective when the views of gun ownership and use are considered.
So going back to whether the police should carry guns, I think the UK public have different views due to the history of the country. With no one outside of the authority being allowed to carry guns in public, the police rarely have a situation where a gun is pulled on them, thankfully. If there's no real need for police to be armed, then I see no reason to place loaded firearms in the hands of very nervous and shaky coppers.
Just bear in mind that the situation in NI, and the gun laws in NI are quite different to the UK.
Thankfully, shootings are a lot less common in the UK than NI and the states, which is why I believe the need for UK police officers to carry guns is dramatically less.
I imagine they're actually very similar.
Nah, they're not.
You're allowed pistols for a start aren't you?
Also I was more referring to the social situation than the laws.
Where as America has it's 2nd amendment and a more accepting stance on gun ownership, and NI has had 'the troubles' for the last 30 odd years obviously resulting in a different attitude to violence etc, the UK remains more of a reserved collective when the views of gun ownership and use are considered.
So going back to whether the police should carry guns, I think the UK public have different views due to the history of the country. With no one outside of the authority being allowed to carry guns in public, the police rarely have a situation where a gun is pulled on them, thankfully. If there's no real need for police to be armed, then I see no reason to place loaded firearms in the hands of very nervous and shaky coppers.
I need to look at the quoted law - gun laws here are quite restrictive - where paramilitaries etc. get guns is through illegal means - smuggling/theft etc. - but for the law-abiding citizens it's more of a case of getting references from neighbours (at least in the countryside) to prove you're not a nut who's going to decimate little toddlers in the nursery. I think our laws and those in GB are much the same, actually, and ours are probably more restrictive given that Sinn Fein/IRA wishes "all of the guns to be taken out of Irish politics" (except of course their own cache of sub-machine guns, mortars, Semtex, anti-tank missiles etc.) What's an old farmers' 12-bore shotgun to this, then. The authorities want to make it super hard/annoying for you to hold on top your old shot gun that's been in your family for years! It's easy enough to see that!
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
In regards to the original question.
I'll toss in a couple of observations others may find useful from a currently serving Military Intelligence NCO. This is all public knowledge.
In (most) NATO countries the "Agent", secret or not so, is generally a foreign country national working for an Intelligence Officer, such as an SIS or MI Officer. The Officer directs ("handles") the agent, normally referred to as the "asset". This is the text book example, as we all know in real life things get a little obscure, but in a nutshell that's what a "Secret Agent" is. Do the governments give them authority to kill? Probably not. Certainly not in any provable way. For clarification on that last point, it would be useful to understand the difference between covert and clandestine. As an example, the effort surrounding the locating of Osama BL was covert intelligence operation, likely carried out by numerous agents handled by case officers.
The SF raid on the compound was a clandestine operation.
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,865MI6 Agent
In regards to the original question.
I'll toss in a couple of observations others may find useful from a currently serving Military Intelligence NCO. This is all public knowledge.
In (most) NATO countries the "Agent", secret or not so, is generally a foreign country national working for an Intelligence Officer, such as an SIS or MI Officer. The Officer directs ("handles") the agent, normally referred to as the "asset". This is the text book example, as we all know in real life things get a little obscure, but in a nutshell that's what a "Secret Agent" is. Do the governments give them authority to kill? Probably not. Certainly not in any provable way. For clarification on that last point, it would be useful to understand the difference between covert and clandestine. As an example, the effort surrounding the locating of Osama BL was covert intelligence operation, likely carried out by numerous agents handled by case officers.
The SF raid on the compound was a clandestine operation.
Thank you very much. Always great to hear from real-life secret intelligence officers. Welcome to AJB, Fairbairn!
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
In regards to the original question.
I'll toss in a couple of observations others may find useful from a currently serving Military Intelligence NCO. This is all public knowledge.
In (most) NATO countries the "Agent", secret or not so, is generally a foreign country national working for an Intelligence Officer, such as an SIS or MI Officer. The Officer directs ("handles") the agent, normally referred to as the "asset". This is the text book example, as we all know in real life things get a little obscure, but in a nutshell that's what a "Secret Agent" is. Do the governments give them authority to kill? Probably not. Certainly not in any provable way. For clarification on that last point, it would be useful to understand the difference between covert and clandestine. As an example, the effort surrounding the locating of Osama BL was covert intelligence operation, likely carried out by numerous agents handled by case officers.
The SF raid on the compound was a clandestine operation.
Actually you have it a bit backwards. The collection efforts (HUMINT, SIGINT, IMINT, etc) surrounding the identified location of UBL were the result of clandestine activities and the raid by SOF was a covert action. Clandestine operations are designed to be "non-attributable" if discovered, while covert action typically becomes "attributable" to and organization/nation state, post operation. Unfortunately, most laymen use the terms interchangably, especially in literature .
Bond: "Who would spend $1 million to kill me?"
M: "Jealous husbands. Outraged chefs. Humiliated tailors. The list is endless!"
Well, Flemming was an Agent during WW2. Most of his own Personal Experiences would become the Basis for Bond. There were Agents on both sides of the 'Cold War' behind Enemy Lines. But I doubt there were any Car Chases or Secret Lairs going up in Smoke.
i think that Fleming was more a desk-bound organiser than a field agent in WW2
He is believed to have organised the defection of Rudolph Hess to Britain
Well, Flemming was an Agent during WW2. Most of his own Personal Experiences would become the Basis for Bond. There were Agents on both sides of the 'Cold War' behind Enemy Lines. But I doubt there were any Car Chases or Secret Lairs going up in Smoke.
i think that Fleming was more a desk-bound organiser than a field agent in WW2
He is believed to have organised the defection of Rudolph Hess to Britain
Well, Flemming was an Agent during WW2. Most of his own Personal Experiences would become the Basis for Bond. There were Agents on both sides of the 'Cold War' behind Enemy Lines. But I doubt there were any Car Chases or Secret Lairs going up in Smoke.
i think that Fleming was more a desk-bound organiser than a field agent in WW2
He is believed to have organised the defection of Rudolph Hess to Britain
Which was a shameful cover up from the start.
Not exactly out finest hour....
My understanding was that Hess wished to meet with some British nobility who were pro-Hitler in an attempt to negotiate a peace using their political contacts
His pilot miscalculated and he was captured by authorities who were not "in on the joke"
It's a mystery to me why Hess remained in prison until his death in the 70s - he did not commit war crimes
There are several examples of this. SOE agent in WWII did a lot of assasinations, particularely hits on gestapo interrogators. The KGB sometimes used Rumenian secrets agents to kill defectors in the west. The Israeli Mossad had teams of assasins killing people related to the Munich olympics attacks
It's without doubt that at some point or other in the world's history people have been employed to 'off' certain unlucky individuals.
However, I sincerely doubt anyone will ever find an admition from the UK security forces with regards the silencing of said people. When the chips are down, if these people have any sense, any risky operation to permanently remove people needs to be deniable and as such would presumably be carried out by a third party, most likely native to the country in which 'the job' would be (pardon the pun) executed.
Like I've said previously, any heavy tactics are usually carried out by specially picked members of specialist groups within the armed forces, SAS, SBS, RAF SD Flight.
MI6 intelligence officers do not drive Aston Martins, carry Walthers and single handedly save the world from cat admiring bald psychotics with facial scars.
Some of what you see in a James Bond is truthful to the real world MI6, but only very very slightly by means of 'surface details' such as where MI6 is based and a Chief in overall charge.
The rest of it, the guns, gadgets, girls, cars, drinks and gambling are all added in For Your Entertainment Only.
When you consider that even the basic police officer has authority to use deadly force to make an arrest... whereas the private citizen only has the right to use deadly force in self defense or in defense of another.. there is an implied "license" or rather more appropriately put, an "authority" to kill placed on the shoulders of even the police.... And this being an authority thatis distinct to that profession.. The police may take a life when the public could not. Take that in comparison with the duties and expectations of a government operative working to protect a greater cause with national security, secrets etc.. I would say that the authorization or "license" to kill would be implicit in the job.
Not in my country there ain't bub.
Silhouette, I suggest you read 'defence of the realm', it might help you out.
Yes, I have a copy of that book on MI5, minigeff - thanks for the ref.
The guy who wroter the new history of MI6, Professor Keith Jeffery, taught me History at university!
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Comments
M: "Jealous husbands. Outraged chefs. Humiliated tailors. The list is endless!"
I imagine they're actually very similar. We here in NI are part of the UK and as a law graduate I can tell you most of our laws are simply put through the photocopier, making them very near to English law, although these 2004 gun laws were an Order in Council, meaning Stormont (which was of course prorogued at that time due to 2002 spying allegations) did not pass said law - but that it came direct from Westminster to the Northern Ireland Office to be implemented - see the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004.
http://www.lawteacher.net/human-rights/essays/deadly-force-by-police.php
Nah, they're not.
You're allowed pistols for a start aren't you?
Also I was more referring to the social situation than the laws.
Where as America has it's 2nd amendment and a more accepting stance on gun ownership, and NI has had 'the troubles' for the last 30 odd years obviously resulting in a different attitude to violence etc, the UK remains more of a reserved collective when the views of gun ownership and use are considered.
So going back to whether the police should carry guns, I think the UK public have different views due to the history of the country. With no one outside of the authority being allowed to carry guns in public, the police rarely have a situation where a gun is pulled on them, thankfully. If there's no real need for police to be armed, then I see no reason to place loaded firearms in the hands of very nervous and shaky coppers.
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
I need to look at the quoted law - gun laws here are quite restrictive - where paramilitaries etc. get guns is through illegal means - smuggling/theft etc. - but for the law-abiding citizens it's more of a case of getting references from neighbours (at least in the countryside) to prove you're not a nut who's going to decimate little toddlers in the nursery. I think our laws and those in GB are much the same, actually, and ours are probably more restrictive given that Sinn Fein/IRA wishes "all of the guns to be taken out of Irish politics" (except of course their own cache of sub-machine guns, mortars, Semtex, anti-tank missiles etc.) What's an old farmers' 12-bore shotgun to this, then. The authorities want to make it super hard/annoying for you to hold on top your old shot gun that's been in your family for years! It's easy enough to see that!
I'll toss in a couple of observations others may find useful from a currently serving Military Intelligence NCO. This is all public knowledge.
In (most) NATO countries the "Agent", secret or not so, is generally a foreign country national working for an Intelligence Officer, such as an SIS or MI Officer. The Officer directs ("handles") the agent, normally referred to as the "asset". This is the text book example, as we all know in real life things get a little obscure, but in a nutshell that's what a "Secret Agent" is. Do the governments give them authority to kill? Probably not. Certainly not in any provable way. For clarification on that last point, it would be useful to understand the difference between covert and clandestine. As an example, the effort surrounding the locating of Osama BL was covert intelligence operation, likely carried out by numerous agents handled by case officers.
The SF raid on the compound was a clandestine operation.
Thank you very much. Always great to hear from real-life secret intelligence officers. Welcome to AJB, Fairbairn!
Actually you have it a bit backwards. The collection efforts (HUMINT, SIGINT, IMINT, etc) surrounding the identified location of UBL were the result of clandestine activities and the raid by SOF was a covert action. Clandestine operations are designed to be "non-attributable" if discovered, while covert action typically becomes "attributable" to and organization/nation state, post operation. Unfortunately, most laymen use the terms interchangably, especially in literature .
M: "Jealous husbands. Outraged chefs. Humiliated tailors. The list is endless!"
i think that Fleming was more a desk-bound organiser than a field agent in WW2
He is believed to have organised the defection of Rudolph Hess to Britain
Which was a shameful cover up from the start.
Not exactly out finest hour....
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
My understanding was that Hess wished to meet with some British nobility who were pro-Hitler in an attempt to negotiate a peace using their political contacts
His pilot miscalculated and he was captured by authorities who were not "in on the joke"
It's a mystery to me why Hess remained in prison until his death in the 70s - he did not commit war crimes
Perhaps he knew too much?
However, I sincerely doubt anyone will ever find an admition from the UK security forces with regards the silencing of said people. When the chips are down, if these people have any sense, any risky operation to permanently remove people needs to be deniable and as such would presumably be carried out by a third party, most likely native to the country in which 'the job' would be (pardon the pun) executed.
Like I've said previously, any heavy tactics are usually carried out by specially picked members of specialist groups within the armed forces, SAS, SBS, RAF SD Flight.
MI6 intelligence officers do not drive Aston Martins, carry Walthers and single handedly save the world from cat admiring bald psychotics with facial scars.
Some of what you see in a James Bond is truthful to the real world MI6, but only very very slightly by means of 'surface details' such as where MI6 is based and a Chief in overall charge.
The rest of it, the guns, gadgets, girls, cars, drinks and gambling are all added in For Your Entertainment Only.
MG
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
Yes, I have a copy of that book on MI5, minigeff - thanks for the ref.
The guy who wroter the new history of MI6, Professor Keith Jeffery, taught me History at university!
By the way, for the story of Hess, check out ISBN 978-0-7509-4757-2
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
Is the Hess book the Double Standards one from 2001?
Could you give the title minigeff?
http://www.lookupbyisbn.com/Lookup/Book/0750947578/978-0-7509-4757-2/1
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
http://youtu.be/XSiE8s36fEM
http://youtu.be/aPxoBZe_Zmc
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
Thanks for this, minigeff.
Thanks also for the You Tube links. Might just watch those 2 parts later.
The book on Hess is an insight as well.
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
Thank you again, minigeff.
I will track that Hess book down at some point hopefully - sounds very interesting indeed!