I think we have to Wait and see what Mr. Rogers
Decide to do when his aston is finished.
He told me it's ok to make a replica for
Personal use but if your doing it for
Comersial (spelling 8-) use it's another
Game and aston will probably have something
To say about that.
It happend not long ago With a Mercedes
Replica build.
As a DB5 owner myself, I remember the magazine replica been discussed on the AM Owners Club forum at the time. As I recall,
Aston Martin came down on the guy like a ton of bricks and that was the end of it. So, I'm sure this is the reason that no replicas have been done on a, commercial basis, at least.
Whoever, is planning to build a replica DB5 would be wise to check the legalities before spending any money on what might be a doomed venture.
Continuing with the "possible" legal issues...a combination of the DB5 and DB6 design may be a creative way to work around any so called legal issues. I am still not convinced there is any on a fifty year old design. I am not particularly fond of the rear end of the DB5 and actually think the DB6 is somewhat better. However...I dislike the side view of the DB5 above the doorline and rear pop-out glass venting...DB5 much better IMO.
Here is an interesting legal view on design patents...specific sections taken from WiseGeeks:
"Patents
A patent is a form of legal protection for an invention. They afford inventors with property rights that are intended to prevent anyone else from making, using, or selling the patented invention. There are three types of patents: utility, plant, and design.
•Design patents are reserved for creators of new ornamental designs for functional items. This could include the design of a piece of furniture or a water bottle. (my italics)
Patent protection lasts for a limited amount of time, usually 20 years from the date of the application, and is only effective in the country in which it was filed. The application must include a detailed description of how the invention works. Since a patent is considered "property," it may be bought, sold, mortgaged, or licensed by the owner. " (my bold)
I guess the question is...does AM have legal protection over the DB5 body design in 2013 ? And if they do...where do they have legal protection ? I note the recent selling of the AM DB5 1/8 scale diecast model in the UK as a monthy subscription...did AM license this...or EON productions...or both ? Hmmm.... 8-)
As a DB5 owner myself, I remember the magazine replica been discussed on the AM Owners Club forum at the time. As I recall,
Aston Martin came down on the guy like a ton of bricks and that was the end of it. So, I'm sure this is the reason that no replicas have been done on a, commercial basis, at least.
Whoever, is planning to build a replica DB5 would be wise to check the legalities before spending any money on what might be a doomed venture.
Spot on corrie.. And welcome to the forum.
This was what I implied in my post above.
I can see it wasn't what others wanted to read, but as minijeff was trying to help, I Tgt it needed saying/repeating.
Fact is, the simple answer is to engage a very good patent lawyer now. Better that (and waste a few hundred pounds ) than get embroiled in a long drawn out legal battle that ties up thousands (even if you get it back in the end-far from certain).
It may be fun to build toy astons in the garage, and they may even be safe to drive on the road.
But it's never smart nor safe to build a legal case in your kitchen using materials obtained from google search and fan sites. 8-)
As for previous comments on it being more cost effective to trick out a real vanquish.... Have you seen under the bonnet of a vanq? To say its cosy in there is an understatement! Add on static guns for car shows maybe, press the button and out pop the guns however... no chance. Nick Finlayson and Andy Smith didn't rip out the V12 for nothing ya know. The toys require masses of space and £10-20k ain't gonna cover the cost of that kinda modding.
Good look with the DB5 replicas though, but I'd rather build my own car from my own design, otherwise it's a bit like a fake watch ain't it?
On the Vanquish, I was thinking you would have to pull out the V12, sell it, and replace it with a crate V8 like the film cars to make gadgets work. In this buyer's market that's still a decent estimate.
His Royal Bickeringness has a good point about "fake watches" and such that ties in to where this conversation seems to be going. A single car for your own use so that you don't need to cut into a priceless vintage DB5 to make the ultimate "Goldfinger" conversion is one thing. Selling copies of someone else's product is another.
Apart from the murky legal matter, I think of it as this - you want to go to all of this effort because you love the Aston design and the Aston brand, so what's the point of trying to steal their copyright and make a buck off their products? Do you want to spend the rest of your life fighting the better trained and better paid legal team representing the design you saw as so compelling?
But it's never smart nor safe to build a legal case in your kitchen using materials obtained from google search and fan sites.
Just ask the 1989 Batmobile builders. They do it correctly; the smart builders let Warner Brothers know about their single use hobby projects in a polite and professional manner, and agree to WB's draconian terms about what can and cannot be done with the finished car. Most of the successful Batmobile builds are used exclusively for charity events with WB's knowledge.
It's important to understand the difference between patent and trademark. It seems unlikely that Aston have a patent on the DB5 (or any other marque) design; but they have almost certainly trademarked their brand. It was noted earlier that Porsche allowed and continues to allow for replica Speedsters; replicating the Speedster goes back decades, starting at a time when Porsche may not have been positioned to protect the design and, even if they could have exercised trademark protection may not have recognized the need to do so: building replicas was then an obscure, literally home-garage-based activity, not the industry it is today.
If Bond's DB5 is "the most famous car in the world," surely the second most famous is the '66 Batmobile designed by George Barris. I'm sure there are members here who might challenge this, but the Batmobile is likely the more distinctive vehicle and replicating one a clearer trademark violation, the very reason that Barris has historically sued people for even calling their car a Batmobile (whether it really resembled one or not) and caused owners to destroy their replicas (granted, though, most often when that replica was being used for monetary gain through exhibition, etc.). If someone has something other than a "bat car" and it looks like a '66, they've paid a license fee to Barris.
It's been asked what Aston could come after someone for and that's rather simple: The Grille. Look at every iteration of every marque -- Vanquish, Vantage, DB, whatever -- and what have you got: The Grille. There have been a slew of ad campaigns for Aston, Bond, and other products where all that's shown is The Grille and we instantly understand everything about that product. You don't think Aston wouldn't protect that? Think they don't have a trademark on it? Wanna spend the time and money in court to find out?
P.S. The Eaglemoss DB5 1/8 kit is trademarked by both EON and Aston.
[NOTE: Looks like Brian and I were simultaneously composing similar posts.]
Brian and Alan have more eloquently made clear what I was trying to convey.
They even more bluntly hammer home the more subtle points;
1) if you're genuinely a fan why not approach the company early on and test the waters.
Offer to pay licence fees per annum, unlikely to he more than a couple of hundred pounds.
Sign in blood that you do not intend to make a single penny out of this venture, and if you do then it will either goto Aston or better to a charity of ther choice.
2) understand that several key aspects of the design are indeed trademarked and therefore guaranteed to incur the very best of legal attrition that these global companies can implement.
As a fan and a collector, I'm genuinely sad that this project is certain to end up in the very same location as the moulds that Brian and Alan discuss, and worse still, the collaborators doomed to spend hours on google-legal-help or $-thousands on the more professional variety.
unless you are producing for profit or resale then a one off near as damit copy would be no issue as long as it did not used copyrights or trade marks.
Actually contacting a company to test the water could actually make things far more difficult should they refuse as then a stronger decision to go ahead has to be made if permission was refused.
Its a whole muddy field but theoretically one original part from a car that is no longer around could be included in a copy and the whole still deemed as original - it has been done many times in the classic car world. Bugatti from one front axle etc. etc.
I would say that its a go for anyone to make and 99.99% unlikely there will be any comeback.
Nick might have a fair point: A bit unrelated but in the US, you can tear down all but one wall of a house and still claim the project as a remodel. If you had an Aston chassis, engine, etc. and replica body and interior, how much in violation would you be?
Laws seem to vary on this topic from country to country. When I registered the Speedster... the Ontario Ministry of Transportation only required the VIN (Vehicle Indentification Number) plate from the donor car...this being of course a VW bug and a safety certificate (brakes, lights, exhaust system, seat belts, etc.) The only major parts of the VW I used was the engine and transaxle.
I know that I can not import a "branded" US car to Canada...meaning "not fit to rebuild" and put it on the road with that VIN number...but I can buy it for parts...as use 99 % of those parts in another or identical car.
I guess the key is that if Mr. Rogers has had some warning from AM's legal department, I can hardly fault him from not developing his hobby, and passion into a business. Seems a pity...he made such fine start...
Hugh told me that there was a db5 front on
The Wall at aston workshop , he askes to
Take molds from it for a replica project
And they told him they would crush it before
Support a project lite that.
What's sad? This is the plug and hugh is
Is continueing his work on the body.
Making a grille of his own and collecting
Parts. He was working on another project
Until this year and will go for the aston
This winter
What's sad? This is the plug and hugh is
Is continueing his work on the body.
Making a grille of his own and collecting
Parts. He was working on another project
Until this year and will go for the aston
This winter
I know what a plug is 8-)
I said sad 'cos it looks sad, discarded and a pile of rubbish...
But given that the ton of bricks did their job, and he's ceasing and desisting like a good boy, at least he didn't have to destroy it per the bat mobiles.
I'm sure AM will be thrilled to know that he's planning on returning to the project soon.
Agree with you on the p1800. The best car Volvo made
I have a V70 2011 but would like a p1800
Instead ) . But the wife got in between X-(
As I'm from gothenburg the hometown of
Volvo i see alot of those cars in summertime
In car meets.they are cheap too.and the saint is my favourite tv-show
Ke02eww, sorry, I'm slow in english
Understanding sometimes. Ofcourse you
Know what a plug is.he told me he was to make some new omilds from
It so it's still useful
Agree with you on the p1800. The best car Volvo made
I have a V70 2011 but would like a p1800
Instead ) . But the wife got in between X-(
As I'm from gothenburg the hometown of
Volvo i see alot of those cars in summertime
In car meets.they are cheap too.and the saint is my favourite tv-show
Ke02eww, sorry, I'm slow in english
Understanding sometimes. Ofcourse you
Know what a plug is.he told me he was to make some new omilds from
It so it's still useful
Martin
Hey Martin no offence taken... Indeed your English is pretty good!
Glad u agree on the p1800 ... There are plenty of better " mules" ....
And I can sympathise re: the wife and car ambitions!
I was interested to read about the DB5 replica project. I'm rebuilding a genuine one at the moment so might possibly be able to cooperate with anyone wanting patterns, panels to copy etc. Can't promise anything - but its a possibility.
You can actually buy a new steel DB5 chassis unit but I've no idea how much they are. Expensive no doubt. Fibreglass shell and a space frame would certainly be a lot cheaper. I think the best parts to use are Jag mechanicals, Jag MkII rear axle, 4.2 straight 6 XK engine (MKX) and all synchro box. MK 2 or XJ front suspension. MkX triple SUs.
Welcome greyhound.
Patterns would be great.the grille and headligt covers ( how big the holes are)
Would be a good start.if it's possible.
Jaguar engine and axels is a good idea, cheap and lookalike.
Could you post pictures of the rebuild? Would be nice.
I was thinking maybe we could get a few guys together to fund getting the bodyshells made professionally. I made some enquiries a while ago about making a D-type shell and it wasn't expensive. I think the mould would be about 5k and the bodies about 3k each.
Grille I'd use secondhand genuine as someone suggested. You could make in fibreglass and get chromed but it would not be easy. I've tried moulding the headlamp covers in perspex but its too easy to overheat. Polycarbonate is the way to go. Secondhand headlamp rims are a lot easier than making. You would have to make iniside and outside separately and weld down the outer edge. I ended up buying the moulded covers and fitting my old rims - which was a lot cheaper than getting the things complete.
One could actually make a platform chassis very similar to the original very cheaply using similar size box sections for the centre chassis rails and sills. All the panels apart from the diff housing and rear wheel arches are single curvature or flat so easy to build with a jig. My car is totally stripped to the bare steel chassis so ideal to make a jig from. You can buy the jacking points and cross members complete as a repair part. Jag suspension will take 52mm Jag hubs and Jag or Aston wires. Side 1/4 windows are curved but you could do them flat in glass, use secondhand or make curved in polycarbonate. Brake master cyl goes under the floor and the bracketry would need making from scratch. The correct master cyl is exoensive but you could use a MkX one and sleeve down. Bumpers would be expensive even secondhand. Dash could be made in fibreglass. Seats could be made from scratch but not simple. Leather trim would be expensive.
Welcome greyhound.
Patterns would be great.the grille and headligt covers ( how big the holes are)
Would be a good start.if it's possible.
Jaguar engine and axels is a good idea, cheap and lookalike.
Could you post pictures of the rebuild? Would be nice.
Hey Zundapp - do not get hung up on small details like that as all those parts are better to be second hand or new original - no point in replicating.
I have always liked the idea of 3.4 or 4.0 litre XJS and re coth it !
Greyhound. Maby we could ask aston to give hugh rogers licence to make the
Bodyshell commercial. And they will have a good parts sale for the db5. )
Voituer. I know I got hung up on things.
But my tought was to have something to start with if i made
My own plug .before start collecting parts.
There is little doubt that a DB5 could be replicated in some form or another with endless permutations of running gear .At the end of the day,after spending, who knows how much money, you're going to have Aston Martin chasing you over copyright.
I 'm not sure, but Aston Martin may have the copyright to the DB5 image as an icon as well as the design aspect.
If you make a car for yourself, AM can't do anything. Copyright is not an issue.
If you're serious about building a car, I wouldn't waste time trying to build the bodywork yourself from scratch. There's a lot of work in making the buck and a lot more in laying up the fibreglass moulds and the panels. You'll be an old man before its finished - and it would still be a kit-car at the end of the day. Trying to make your own buck from a model is not a good idea because the smallest defects will scale up to be noticeable at full size. It would end up with a ton of filler on it to get the curves right. You need a mould off a real car. Otherwise it will look like a Citroen Ami with an Aston Martin badge on it.
As for collecting parts, it makes sense to start now because you can never find them at the right price (or maybe at all) when you need them in a hurry.
Apart from the original Bond DB5s, the most expensive DB5 for sale at the moment is priced at £595,000 and project cars, if you can find one, at £300,000. With such large sums of money involved in an original DB5, who is going to let anyone take a mould
from one ?
Comments
Decide to do when his aston is finished.
He told me it's ok to make a replica for
Personal use but if your doing it for
Comersial (spelling 8-) use it's another
Game and aston will probably have something
To say about that.
It happend not long ago With a Mercedes
Replica build.
Aston Martin came down on the guy like a ton of bricks and that was the end of it. So, I'm sure this is the reason that no replicas have been done on a, commercial basis, at least.
Whoever, is planning to build a replica DB5 would be wise to check the legalities before spending any money on what might be a doomed venture.
Here is an interesting legal view on design patents...specific sections taken from WiseGeeks:
"Patents
A patent is a form of legal protection for an invention. They afford inventors with property rights that are intended to prevent anyone else from making, using, or selling the patented invention. There are three types of patents: utility, plant, and design.
•Design patents are reserved for creators of new ornamental designs for functional items. This could include the design of a piece of furniture or a water bottle. (my italics)
Patent protection lasts for a limited amount of time, usually 20 years from the date of the application, and is only effective in the country in which it was filed. The application must include a detailed description of how the invention works. Since a patent is considered "property," it may be bought, sold, mortgaged, or licensed by the owner. " (my bold)
I guess the question is...does AM have legal protection over the DB5 body design in 2013 ? And if they do...where do they have legal protection ? I note the recent selling of the AM DB5 1/8 scale diecast model in the UK as a monthy subscription...did AM license this...or EON productions...or both ? Hmmm.... 8-)
Spot on corrie.. And welcome to the forum.
This was what I implied in my post above.
I can see it wasn't what others wanted to read, but as minijeff was trying to help, I Tgt it needed saying/repeating.
Fact is, the simple answer is to engage a very good patent lawyer now. Better that (and waste a few hundred pounds ) than get embroiled in a long drawn out legal battle that ties up thousands (even if you get it back in the end-far from certain).
It may be fun to build toy astons in the garage, and they may even be safe to drive on the road.
But it's never smart nor safe to build a legal case in your kitchen using materials obtained from google search and fan sites. 8-)
Cheers
On the Vanquish, I was thinking you would have to pull out the V12, sell it, and replace it with a crate V8 like the film cars to make gadgets work. In this buyer's market that's still a decent estimate.
His Royal Bickeringness has a good point about "fake watches" and such that ties in to where this conversation seems to be going. A single car for your own use so that you don't need to cut into a priceless vintage DB5 to make the ultimate "Goldfinger" conversion is one thing. Selling copies of someone else's product is another.
Apart from the murky legal matter, I think of it as this - you want to go to all of this effort because you love the Aston design and the Aston brand, so what's the point of trying to steal their copyright and make a buck off their products? Do you want to spend the rest of your life fighting the better trained and better paid legal team representing the design you saw as so compelling?
Just ask the 1989 Batmobile builders. They do it correctly; the smart builders let Warner Brothers know about their single use hobby projects in a polite and professional manner, and agree to WB's draconian terms about what can and cannot be done with the finished car. Most of the successful Batmobile builds are used exclusively for charity events with WB's knowledge.
The not-so-smart builders have their molds seized/destroyed (Jay Ohrberg) and spend their life in litigation(http://www.geekexchange.com/wb-dc-comics-win-batmobile-replica-lawsuit-against-mark-towle-42339.html).
--Brian
If Bond's DB5 is "the most famous car in the world," surely the second most famous is the '66 Batmobile designed by George Barris. I'm sure there are members here who might challenge this, but the Batmobile is likely the more distinctive vehicle and replicating one a clearer trademark violation, the very reason that Barris has historically sued people for even calling their car a Batmobile (whether it really resembled one or not) and caused owners to destroy their replicas (granted, though, most often when that replica was being used for monetary gain through exhibition, etc.). If someone has something other than a "bat car" and it looks like a '66, they've paid a license fee to Barris.
It's been asked what Aston could come after someone for and that's rather simple: The Grille. Look at every iteration of every marque -- Vanquish, Vantage, DB, whatever -- and what have you got: The Grille. There have been a slew of ad campaigns for Aston, Bond, and other products where all that's shown is The Grille and we instantly understand everything about that product. You don't think Aston wouldn't protect that? Think they don't have a trademark on it? Wanna spend the time and money in court to find out?
P.S. The Eaglemoss DB5 1/8 kit is trademarked by both EON and Aston.
[NOTE: Looks like Brian and I were simultaneously composing similar posts.]
They even more bluntly hammer home the more subtle points;
1) if you're genuinely a fan why not approach the company early on and test the waters.
Offer to pay licence fees per annum, unlikely to he more than a couple of hundred pounds.
Sign in blood that you do not intend to make a single penny out of this venture, and if you do then it will either goto Aston or better to a charity of ther choice.
2) understand that several key aspects of the design are indeed trademarked and therefore guaranteed to incur the very best of legal attrition that these global companies can implement.
As a fan and a collector, I'm genuinely sad that this project is certain to end up in the very same location as the moulds that Brian and Alan discuss, and worse still, the collaborators doomed to spend hours on google-legal-help or $-thousands on the more professional variety.
But rest assured, that is a certainty.
unless you are producing for profit or resale then a one off near as damit copy would be no issue as long as it did not used copyrights or trade marks.
Actually contacting a company to test the water could actually make things far more difficult should they refuse as then a stronger decision to go ahead has to be made if permission was refused.
Its a whole muddy field but theoretically one original part from a car that is no longer around could be included in a copy and the whole still deemed as original - it has been done many times in the classic car world. Bugatti from one front axle etc. etc.
I would say that its a go for anyone to make and 99.99% unlikely there will be any comeback.
BTW don't quote this in court as I'm out that day
I know that I can not import a "branded" US car to Canada...meaning "not fit to rebuild" and put it on the road with that VIN number...but I can buy it for parts...as use 99 % of those parts in another or identical car.
I guess the key is that if Mr. Rogers has had some warning from AM's legal department, I can hardly fault him from not developing his hobby, and passion into a business. Seems a pity...he made such fine start...
This is what i found on google maps
Looking at the adress.
The Wall at aston workshop , he askes to
Take molds from it for a replica project
And they told him they would crush it before
Support a project lite that.
Very Very sad....
And as discussed, no grill or badge.
Tens of thousands of pounds sitting in a heap like junk.
But at least it avoided the bat mobile fates.. 8-)
Is continueing his work on the body.
Making a grille of his own and collecting
Parts. He was working on another project
Until this year and will go for the aston
This winter
I know what a plug is 8-)
I said sad 'cos it looks sad, discarded and a pile of rubbish...
But given that the ton of bricks did their job, and he's ceasing and desisting like a good boy, at least he didn't have to destroy it per the bat mobiles.
I'm sure AM will be thrilled to know that he's planning on returning to the project soon.
Completely with you here... The P1800s are almost as classic as the DBs and this is a travesty...
Someone call the Volvo owners club and set them on this Dr Frankenstein
I have a V70 2011 but would like a p1800
Instead
As I'm from gothenburg the hometown of
Volvo i see alot of those cars in summertime
In car meets.they are cheap too.and the saint is my favourite tv-show
Ke02eww, sorry, I'm slow in english
Understanding sometimes. Ofcourse you
Know what a plug is.he told me he was to make some new omilds from
It so it's still useful
Martin
Hey Martin no offence taken... Indeed your English is pretty good!
Glad u agree on the p1800 ... There are plenty of better " mules" ....
And I can sympathise re: the wife and car ambitions!
Cheers paul
I was interested to read about the DB5 replica project. I'm rebuilding a genuine one at the moment so might possibly be able to cooperate with anyone wanting patterns, panels to copy etc. Can't promise anything - but its a possibility.
You can actually buy a new steel DB5 chassis unit but I've no idea how much they are. Expensive no doubt. Fibreglass shell and a space frame would certainly be a lot cheaper. I think the best parts to use are Jag mechanicals, Jag MkII rear axle, 4.2 straight 6 XK engine (MKX) and all synchro box. MK 2 or XJ front suspension. MkX triple SUs.
Greyhound
Patterns would be great.the grille and headligt covers ( how big the holes are)
Would be a good start.if it's possible.
Jaguar engine and axels is a good idea, cheap and lookalike.
Could you post pictures of the rebuild? Would be nice.
Yes I'll dig out some pics.
I was thinking maybe we could get a few guys together to fund getting the bodyshells made professionally. I made some enquiries a while ago about making a D-type shell and it wasn't expensive. I think the mould would be about 5k and the bodies about 3k each.
Grille I'd use secondhand genuine as someone suggested. You could make in fibreglass and get chromed but it would not be easy. I've tried moulding the headlamp covers in perspex but its too easy to overheat. Polycarbonate is the way to go. Secondhand headlamp rims are a lot easier than making. You would have to make iniside and outside separately and weld down the outer edge. I ended up buying the moulded covers and fitting my old rims - which was a lot cheaper than getting the things complete.
One could actually make a platform chassis very similar to the original very cheaply using similar size box sections for the centre chassis rails and sills. All the panels apart from the diff housing and rear wheel arches are single curvature or flat so easy to build with a jig. My car is totally stripped to the bare steel chassis so ideal to make a jig from. You can buy the jacking points and cross members complete as a repair part. Jag suspension will take 52mm Jag hubs and Jag or Aston wires. Side 1/4 windows are curved but you could do them flat in glass, use secondhand or make curved in polycarbonate. Brake master cyl goes under the floor and the bracketry would need making from scratch. The correct master cyl is exoensive but you could use a MkX one and sleeve down. Bumpers would be expensive even secondhand. Dash could be made in fibreglass. Seats could be made from scratch but not simple. Leather trim would be expensive.
Greyhound
Hey Zundapp - do not get hung up on small details like that as all those parts are better to be second hand or new original - no point in replicating.
I have always liked the idea of 3.4 or 4.0 litre XJS and re coth it !
Bodyshell commercial. And they will have a good parts sale for the db5.
Voituer. I know I got hung up on things.
But my tought was to have something to start with if i made
My own plug .before start collecting parts.
I 'm not sure, but Aston Martin may have the copyright to the DB5 image as an icon as well as the design aspect.
If you're serious about building a car, I wouldn't waste time trying to build the bodywork yourself from scratch. There's a lot of work in making the buck and a lot more in laying up the fibreglass moulds and the panels. You'll be an old man before its finished - and it would still be a kit-car at the end of the day. Trying to make your own buck from a model is not a good idea because the smallest defects will scale up to be noticeable at full size. It would end up with a ton of filler on it to get the curves right. You need a mould off a real car. Otherwise it will look like a Citroen Ami with an Aston Martin badge on it.
As for collecting parts, it makes sense to start now because you can never find them at the right price (or maybe at all) when you need them in a hurry.
greyhound
from one ?