TMWTGG has the lowest kill count in the series with Bond only killing one person throughout the entire movie. And 6 kills all together. Just kind of shows how little action there was.
TMWTGG has the lowest kill count in the series with Bond only killing one person throughout the entire movie. And 6 kills all together. Just kind of shows how little action there was.
You make an interesting point, and I am truly impressed by your knowledge of the Negro Leagues. As for Goldfinger, although I don't happen to think it's over-rated I think we are in agreement that it is certainly superior to TMWTGG and AVTAK.
Even if I agreed that GF is over-rated, which I don't, there's no way either TMWTGG or AVTAK are better films. No way! (IMO of course)
I think it IS overrated (why does it get ranked in front of FRWL so much, for example?) but still agree with you. It suffers from the same problem as the Marx Brothers' A Night at the Opera.
Typically, when people are introduced to the Marx Brothers, they're shown A Night at the Opera. When they discover other Marx Brothers films and even Vaudeville shorts with surviving sound, they just start nitpicking the heck out of A Night at the Opera. If you didn't actually watch it, you'd think that everyone except the critics hated it and that it was a terrible movie. Anything but!
Likewise, when people are introduced to "formulaic Bond", they're generally introduced to Goldfinger. Maybe it's not the first of the formulaic Bonds, but they're told it's the best. So they start nitpicking it to death.
In fact, the phenomenon isn't even limited to movies. I'm a HUGE baseball fan and really, really into baseball research. A friend of mine likes researching the Negro Leagues prior to the advent of integrated baseball. He came up with something he calls "Faster than Satchel Syndrome". Satchel Paige was probably one of the game's great pitchers and sadly lost out of most of what should have been his Major League career thanks to being black. But start asking guys who played in the Negro Leagues and you'll start getting "well, Satchel was fast, sure, but Dick Redding was faster." Or maybe Hilton Smith. Or perhaps Slim Jones. Or how about Bill Foster. Or Leon Day. Maybe Jose Mendez. Maybe Smokey Joe Williams if they're really old (John Henry Lloyd, who was generally perceived as a very smart, level-headed guy saw both and said Paige was faster). But that's not the point. The point is that they all used Satchel Paige as a measuring stick, to a man. They were told by their managers that Paige was probably the fastest guy they'd see in the league. So they started looking for the possibility, quite possibly unconsciously in many cases, that there was some well-established pitcher who was already faster. He was always second or third best. Nobody was putting him way down the list unless they saw him after his circa 1941 arm injury. Listen to enough of the accounts collected during the 1980's and 1990's, though, and your picture begins to emerge that he was a junkballer throughout his career who couldn't break 85 mph. He may not have been the fastest, but he threw HARD, likely in the 90's, and nobody denies that. If you're looking for someone else a lot like that, try Steve Dalkowski (yes, that's how I got my username; good friend of mine) or Nolan Ryan later on. "Yes, he was fast, but [pitcher x] seemed faster." Yet, they still used Steve and Nolan Ryan as measuring sticks.
How does this translate to Bond? Simple: we're all using GF as a measuring stick, whether consciously or not. That means that you watched it and thought highly enough of it to compare other Bond films you perceive as really good to it rather than something else. How many Bond films can TRULY claim that wide appeal? THAT is why I think GF is a truly great Bond film, even IF it's overrated.
and I am truly impressed by your knowledge of the Negro Leagues.
Thanks! I try to be as knowledgeable in every area of baseball as possible. Before he passed away, I was also friends with Clinton "Butch" McCord (Baltimore Elite Giants and Chicago American Giants prior to playing in integrated ball), who basically volunteered to mentor a bunch of guys in the Dodgers organization coming up the ladder. I believe he was the only position player who faced Leon Day and Steve Dalkowski (so did Bill Powell, but he was a pitcher). "Leon Day was ten times more effective because he could put it almost anywhere he wanted. He's got a plaque in Cooperstown to show for it. Steve Dalkowski was ten times faster, and I admit, he was not a pitcher you wanted to face. But at the end of the day, you either walked or struck out."
Interesting theory by Dalkowski110. You could apply the same thing to The Beatles and Sgt Pepper.
I think TMWTGG would have stood up better with Peter Hunt directing, like he did with Gold. It needs a harder edge, but it's hard to escape the fact that really it is a mystery or whodunnit, because of course Scaramanga didn't even send Bond the bullet; so any danger to Bond is surely cosmetic or assumed for most of the film.
Oh, and I would have thought that NSNA was very low on kills, nothing in the opening scene (it's all a training session), Lippe and Blush (but rather eccentric deaths to say the least) and even Largo killed by Domino methinks. Not great for the hard-edged Bond.
"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."
Roger Moore 1927-2017
BIG TAMWrexham, North Wales, UK.Posts: 773MI6 Agent
TMWTGG is an enjoyable romp for the most part. All it needs is the jettisoning of the Solex sub-plot, the lame visual gags to be dumped on the cutting room floor & a couple more shady characters added to give Bond's hunt for Scaramanga greater suspense & you have a cracking 007 thriller. The rot sets in after the karate school sequence, as though Broccoli & co lost faith in a tougher narrative. I agree that Peter Hunt may have been better suited to a harder venture.
I'm a HUGE baseball fan and really, really into baseball research. A friend of mine likes researching the Negro Leagues prior to the advent of integrated baseball. He came up with something he calls "Faster than Satchel Syndrome". Satchel Paige was probably one of the game's great pitchers and sadly lost out of most of what should have been his Major League career thanks to being black. But start asking guys who played in the Negro Leagues and you'll start getting "well, Satchel was fast, sure, but Dick Redding was faster." Or maybe Hilton Smith. Or perhaps Slim Jones. Or how about Bill Foster. Or Leon Day. Maybe Jose Mendez. Maybe Smokey Joe Williams if they're really old (John Henry Lloyd, who was generally perceived as a very smart, level-headed guy saw both and said Paige was faster). But that's not the point. The point is that they all used Satchel Paige as a measuring stick, to a man. They were told by their managers that Paige was probably the fastest guy they'd see in the league. So they started looking for the possibility, quite possibly unconsciously in many cases, that there was some well-established pitcher who was already faster. He was always second or third best. Nobody was putting him way down the list unless they saw him after his circa 1941 arm injury. Listen to enough of the accounts collected during the 1980's and 1990's, though, and your picture begins to emerge that he was a junkballer throughout his career who couldn't break 85 mph. He may not have been the fastest, but he threw HARD, likely in the 90's, and nobody denies that. If you're looking for someone else a lot like that, try Steve Dalkowski (yes, that's how I got my username; good friend of mine) or Nolan Ryan later on. "Yes, he was fast, but [pitcher x] seemed faster." Yet, they still used Steve and Nolan Ryan as measuring sticks.
Oh come on. Sidd Finch could throw way harder than any of those hacks!
Do you feel as I do that, despite terrible press and reviews over the years since the release of The Man with the Golden Gun (1974) over the years, it still has something about it that is special - it is very different in style and themes from many of the James Bond films that either preceded it or indeed followed it.
It has a strange almost haunting quality about it, what with the echo-y tunes Barry was producing at the time along with the wax replicas being played by real people ( I used to think that was stupid as a kid, but the ones they make today are THAT GOOD!), the Nic Nac weirdness trying to get Scaramanga killed... it was just a singular, fascinating Bond movie IMO.
Plus: you get a couple of frames of the camera crew in the mirror of the dancer's room in the SE edition! )
This is Hamilton's best Bond IMO.
Regarding Hamilton Bonds:
GF wouldn't be HALF as appreciated as it is if not for Oddjob & the DB5.
DAF is very classy, but really silly & lightweight in too many spots to be a classic Bond.
LALD has a great score, and Jane Seymour, but it's so sleight, and it's villain's demise is not only stupid in its concept, it's even crappier in its execution.
For all its drawbacks, TMWTGG is the ONLY Hamilton Bond I can watch repeatedly now & still get a major kick out of.
So for me, it's rated like this:
TMWTGG
DAF
GF
LALD
Oh come on. Sidd Finch could throw way harder than any of those hacks!
I have that original article! For those wondering, he was a creation of Sports Illustrated's George Plimpton as an April Fool's Day joke who followed it up with a hilarious hybrid of someone that resembled Chevy Chase's character in Caddyshack and your average ballplayer.
Interesting theory by Dalkowski110. You could apply the same thing to The Beatles and Sgt Pepper.
Ironically, I thought of using Sgt. Pepper as a third example, but thought it would be overkill. But come to think of it, it deserves mention not only because you have individual people with direct experience saying "oh, well...I liked their first songs better" or "anything on the White Album was better than Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band!", but you also have disc jockeys (of all ages, not just the new guys!) actually playing Beetles songs that have NOTHING to do with Sgt. Pepper and bringing it up anyway!
I rewatched TMWTGG last night and found it highly entertaining. Ok, partly due to the fact that I haven't seen it in 5 years so it felt fresh.
Some really interesting bits that we haven't really seen in other 007 films:
1. Bond taking a gamble and disguising himself as the villain was an interesting concept.
2. Bond's dinner discussion with Scaramanga about their similarities/differences.
3. Goodnight's dismissal of Bond's advances saying she doesn't want to be another of his passing fancies to kill a few hours.
(Her character's only redeeming quality in the entire film. Too bad she showed up in his hotel room anyway)
4. The skeleton crew of Scaramanga's island was a far cry from the giant battle scenes of previous Bond films.
5. The house of mirrors was fun. So was the tilted MI6 headquarters inside the ship wreckage.
6. Seeing Bond slap Maud Adams around was strangely enjoyable because it's so against-type of the usual Moore performance.
As was pushing the Thai-boy into the river. Or pointing the rifle at Lazar with his family eating dinner right outside. Bond was not particularly nice in this film!
7. The fight scenes were really good, especially in the dancer's dressing room. Reminded me of the thugs at Carver's party in TND.
8. A few controversial issues are discussed in this film that are very much hot topics today. Such as the gun/ammo maker defending his profession and the oil companies reaction to Scaramanga's solar power plants.
9. Perhaps the most sympathy for the villain in any Bond film. Scaramanga's tragic story about his elephant friend and how it made him enjoy killing people.
10. Maud Adams luring Bond into the scheme was much better executed than Skyfall's overly-elaborate trap for M.
TMWTGG still suffers from several major problems which I am sure you are all aware of. The things that bother me the most are the stupid, bumbling allies for Bond. As if JW wasn't bad enough, we also have Lt. Hip driving off without Bond and Mary Goodnight screwing everything up. I also wanted a happy ending for Nick Nack. With Scaramanga dead he should have rightfully inherited the island and lived happily ever after...not go after Bond on the schooner!
It was also rather strange that Scaramanga knew almost nothing about his own solar operation and lets Bond fill in the details. Just goes to show how badly tacked on the energy crisis plot was.
Still, a really neat film. I'm glad I rewatched it. Instead of TMWTGG being the worst Roger Moore 007 film I now consider it his 7th best and closing fast on Octopussy.
My current 10 favorite:
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
I rewatched TMWTGG last night and found it highly entertaining. Ok, partly due to the fact that I haven't seen it in 5 years so it felt fresh.
Some really interesting bits that we haven't really seen in other 007 films:
1. Bond taking a gamble and disguising himself as the villain was an interesting concept.
2. Bond's dinner discussion with Scaramanga about their similarities/differences.
3. Goodnight's dismissal of Bond's advances saying she doesn't want to be another of his passing fancies to kill a few hours.
(Her character's only redeeming quality in the entire film. Too bad she showed up in his hotel room anyway)
4. The skeleton crew of Scaramanga's island was a far cry from the giant battle scenes of previous Bond films.
5. The house of mirrors was fun. So was the tilted MI6 headquarters inside the ship wreckage.
6. Seeing Bond slap Maud Adams around was strangely enjoyable because it's so against-type of the usual Moore performance.
As was pushing the Thai-boy into the river. Or pointing the rifle at Lazar with his family eating dinner right outside. Bond was not particularly nice in this film!
7. The fight scenes were really good, especially in the dancer's dressing room. Reminded me of the thugs at Carver's party in TND.
8. A few controversial issues are discussed in this film that are very much hot topics today. Such as the gun/ammo maker defending his profession and the oil companies reaction to Scaramanga's solar power plants.
9. Perhaps the most sympathy for the villain in any Bond film. Scaramanga's tragic story about his elephant friend and how it made him enjoy killing people.
10. Maud Adams luring Bond into the scheme was much better executed than Skyfall's overly-elaborate trap for M.
TMWTGG still suffers from several major problems which I am sure you are all aware of. The things that bother me the most are the stupid, bumbling allies for Bond. As if JW wasn't bad enough, we also have Lt. Hip driving off without Bond and Mary Goodnight screwing everything up. I also wanted a happy ending for Nick Nack. With Scaramanga dead he should have rightfully inherited the island and lived happily ever after...not go after Bond on the schooner!
It was also rather strange that Scaramanga knew almost nothing about his own solar operation and lets Bond fill in the details. Just goes to show how badly tacked on the energy crisis plot was.
Still, a really neat film. I'm glad I rewatched it. Instead of TMWTGG being the worst Roger Moore 007 film I now consider it his 7th best and closing fast on Octopussy.
Yes, TMWTGG is vastly underrated - I too watched it recently and thought it very good, not having seen it for a long time. It is quite a unique entry fror the reasons that you state in your excellent post. -{
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
I still love that movie and I guess, that firemass forgot to mention the best parts of the movie:
The beautiful locations in Asia, particularly the island in Thailand.
The QE sets are beautifully made - what an idea and Britt Ekland in a bikini is always a sight.
I can live with Pepper, though he was better and funnier in LALD, I did not like the Karate Girls scenes (too comic-like) and the Nick Nack end fight is also very boring imo.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I agree with Silhouetteman, it is a very Flemingesque film and intelligently executed apart from the various flaws mentioned. I think Fleming would have approved it. Christopher Lee was one of the best Bond villains, although he is little mentioned as such. The musical score was good, although I think Lulu was the wrong singer for the title song.
Comments
interesting chart!
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
If we include the unofficial CR'67, they wiped out the entire cast, so kill count isn't everything.
Thanks! I try to be as knowledgeable in every area of baseball as possible. Before he passed away, I was also friends with Clinton "Butch" McCord (Baltimore Elite Giants and Chicago American Giants prior to playing in integrated ball), who basically volunteered to mentor a bunch of guys in the Dodgers organization coming up the ladder. I believe he was the only position player who faced Leon Day and Steve Dalkowski (so did Bill Powell, but he was a pitcher). "Leon Day was ten times more effective because he could put it almost anywhere he wanted. He's got a plaque in Cooperstown to show for it. Steve Dalkowski was ten times faster, and I admit, he was not a pitcher you wanted to face. But at the end of the day, you either walked or struck out."
I think TMWTGG would have stood up better with Peter Hunt directing, like he did with Gold. It needs a harder edge, but it's hard to escape the fact that really it is a mystery or whodunnit, because of course Scaramanga didn't even send Bond the bullet; so any danger to Bond is surely cosmetic or assumed for most of the film.
Oh, and I would have thought that NSNA was very low on kills, nothing in the opening scene (it's all a training session), Lippe and Blush (but rather eccentric deaths to say the least) and even Largo killed by Domino methinks. Not great for the hard-edged Bond.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I suppose you're right! But when he gets shot I was kind of like "Awwww rip x"
Plus: you get a couple of frames of the camera crew in the mirror of the dancer's room in the SE edition!
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Regarding Hamilton Bonds:
GF wouldn't be HALF as appreciated as it is if not for Oddjob & the DB5.
DAF is very classy, but really silly & lightweight in too many spots to be a classic Bond.
LALD has a great score, and Jane Seymour, but it's so sleight, and it's villain's demise is not only stupid in its concept, it's even crappier in its execution.
For all its drawbacks, TMWTGG is the ONLY Hamilton Bond I can watch repeatedly now & still get a major kick out of.
So for me, it's rated like this:
TMWTGG
DAF
GF
LALD
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
I have that original article! For those wondering, he was a creation of Sports Illustrated's George Plimpton as an April Fool's Day joke who followed it up with a hilarious hybrid of someone that resembled Chevy Chase's character in Caddyshack and your average ballplayer.
Ironically, I thought of using Sgt. Pepper as a third example, but thought it would be overkill. But come to think of it, it deserves mention not only because you have individual people with direct experience saying "oh, well...I liked their first songs better" or "anything on the White Album was better than Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band!", but you also have disc jockeys (of all ages, not just the new guys!) actually playing Beetles songs that have NOTHING to do with Sgt. Pepper and bringing it up anyway!
Some really interesting bits that we haven't really seen in other 007 films:
1. Bond taking a gamble and disguising himself as the villain was an interesting concept.
2. Bond's dinner discussion with Scaramanga about their similarities/differences.
3. Goodnight's dismissal of Bond's advances saying she doesn't want to be another of his passing fancies to kill a few hours.
(Her character's only redeeming quality in the entire film. Too bad she showed up in his hotel room anyway)
4. The skeleton crew of Scaramanga's island was a far cry from the giant battle scenes of previous Bond films.
5. The house of mirrors was fun. So was the tilted MI6 headquarters inside the ship wreckage.
6. Seeing Bond slap Maud Adams around was strangely enjoyable because it's so against-type of the usual Moore performance.
As was pushing the Thai-boy into the river. Or pointing the rifle at Lazar with his family eating dinner right outside. Bond was not particularly nice in this film!
7. The fight scenes were really good, especially in the dancer's dressing room. Reminded me of the thugs at Carver's party in TND.
8. A few controversial issues are discussed in this film that are very much hot topics today. Such as the gun/ammo maker defending his profession and the oil companies reaction to Scaramanga's solar power plants.
9. Perhaps the most sympathy for the villain in any Bond film. Scaramanga's tragic story about his elephant friend and how it made him enjoy killing people.
10. Maud Adams luring Bond into the scheme was much better executed than Skyfall's overly-elaborate trap for M.
TMWTGG still suffers from several major problems which I am sure you are all aware of. The things that bother me the most are the stupid, bumbling allies for Bond. As if JW wasn't bad enough, we also have Lt. Hip driving off without Bond and Mary Goodnight screwing everything up. I also wanted a happy ending for Nick Nack. With Scaramanga dead he should have rightfully inherited the island and lived happily ever after...not go after Bond on the schooner!
It was also rather strange that Scaramanga knew almost nothing about his own solar operation and lets Bond fill in the details. Just goes to show how badly tacked on the energy crisis plot was.
Still, a really neat film. I'm glad I rewatched it. Instead of TMWTGG being the worst Roger Moore 007 film I now consider it his 7th best and closing fast on Octopussy.
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Yes, TMWTGG is vastly underrated - I too watched it recently and thought it very good, not having seen it for a long time. It is quite a unique entry fror the reasons that you state in your excellent post. -{
The beautiful locations in Asia, particularly the island in Thailand.
The QE sets are beautifully made - what an idea and Britt Ekland in a bikini is always a sight.
I can live with Pepper, though he was better and funnier in LALD, I did not like the Karate Girls scenes (too comic-like) and the Nick Nack end fight is also very boring imo.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!