If a non-00 killed someone would they be arrested?
osris
Posts: 558MI6 Agent
If a non-00 killed someone in the line of duty what would the consequence be? Would they be arrested? Most spies would have to, at one time or another, kill in the line of duty, so what is different about the 00 section?
Comments
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/14/mi6-licence-to-kill-and-torture
But can you answer my question? What is the difference between a non-00 and a 00, in the world of the fictional Bond?
In Bond's fictional world, I would say that non-00 British Intelligence would be under the English law of murder as defined by the common law and statute law, and as such, would only be expected to kill if it was in self-defence, which is a complete defence in the English law of murder. All of this is hypothetical of course, and the Government of the day could use the royal prerogative power of nolle prosequi (which is Latin for "not willing to pursue") to stop prosecutions of British Intelligence Operatives or personnel on the gropunds of it not being in quote "the public interest" unquote. The Double-O section is of course given the legal sanction to kill in the line of duty, but this vast power must be carried out objectively and obviously must not used to murder individuals for personal reasons or as part of a vendetta. In other words, all British Intelligence personnel are subject to the rule of law like every other British citizen and the writ of the Royal Courts of Justice has the full run of the country.
Hope that helps to answer your question. I'm here all week.
Are there any situations that you know of where any of Bond’s killings could be seen as illegal within the context of the law you have described—either in the books or films?
No indeed.
Spies - as you see them - don't exist. If there was a 'kill order' authorised, it would be Special Forces that did it...the 'article' you reference explains that an intelligence officer could be given that order...not that they are given that order...a subtle difference
OUTED
Sorry Oscar, you're gonna need more of head start on this one!
Roger Moore 1927-2017
That might be, but you still didn’t answer my question which was “What is the difference between a non-00 and a 00, in the world of the fictional Bond?”
Despite the replies of the other two jokers, I think you actually raise very interesting points and I'd like to help you with answering the questions that you pose!
On Bond's killings being illegal see the Fleming short story 'For Your Eyes Only' from the 1960 short story collection of the same name. Here, Bond goes to Canada to kill von Hammerstein and Major Gonzales after they kill M's friends the Havelocks (he was best man at their wedding in 1925). Bond has to justify to himself why he should kill these people as he knows in his heart this is plain murder in order to carry out the assassinations. You should have a good read of that. Fleming often dealt with the darker areas of James Bond's character in the short stories and in some of his later novels.
In terms of the Bond continuation novels, you should have a read of John Gardner's Licence Renewed (1981) where he reveals that the Double-O section has been abolished by the British Treasury under the (real-life) Realignment Purge of the Secret Intelligence Services in the UK and the US two years before the story bwegan in 1979. This was part of Gardner's attempts to bring more realism to the Bond series from the word 'go'. M then created the Special Section of which 007 was the sole member - thus renaming the Double-O section and in effect sticking two fingers up to the Establishment in Whitehall. This change by Gardner does create some lovely legal questions about the authority of M to create a new section for 007 to continue as Britain's 'licensed toubleshooter', and, as such, one wonders whether Bond kills for M or for his country and therefore whether his killing in the line of duty has the approval and indeed the sanction of the realm he is assigned solely by M to protect at all costs.
As I said before, I'm here all week...keep the fascinating questions coming, my good sir!
Oof!
Roger Moore 1927-2017
If you want to know more about the Disbanding of the Double-O section in John Gardner's Licence Renewed, you should read this article on my The Bondologist Blog here:
http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/disbanding-of-double-o-section-first.html?showComment=1358620589872
Hope that you enjoy the read, osris! I'd love to hear your thoughts on this (and any other) of the articles on The Bondologist Blog that take of your fancy. Please leave comments here or on the blog comment box function when you get it read.
Cheers,
SILHOUETTE MAN.
Have you considered self-publishing a book on this material, via a self-publishing website such as Lulu (http://www.lulu.com/gb). You can do it relatively cheaply, less than £50, and sell it from the Lulu site or Amazon. I’m sure that members of this forum, and other Bond forums, would buy a copy. I would.
Thank you, osris. There's a whole pile of new material to come on The Bondologist Blog in the 2013-2014 period - I have to revise again my topic list with a few title and content changes. I've been looking into the possibility of a The Bondologist Book to accompany The Bondologist Blog - a company called Xlibris allow you to self-publish books, but I'll also take a look at the Lulu firm you mention - though perhaps my articles are rather too niche for a wider Bond fan audience? Please freel free top leave some comments on The Bondologist Blog itself - I enjoy reading what others think of my Bond work so far!
P.S. I'm curious - where did your name osris come from?
Yes, for a wider Bond fan base your material would be too specialist, I suppose. But there will still be many fans that want to delve deeper into Bond-lore, so to speak, than just the average fan. I’m sure even EON, where they to be made aware of any book you published, would find it interesting, and it might even “inspire” them in some way. At least they could draw upon it for future Bond film background authenticity etc.
Also some academics that study popular culture might be interested. There are degree course modules studying popular fictional characters such as Sherlock Holmes and Captain Kirk etc. and it wouldn’t surprise me if Bond was also included.
I just made up the name osris.
Yes, my online friend Andrew McNess told me a lot of insider detail about Xlibris - he used them and he's the author of the excellent book James Bond in Our Sights: A Close Look at 'A View to A Kill' (2011). Give yourself a treat and buy this gem of a book on Amazon. He remains an inspiration to me - to keep on writing about James Bond and maybe even other topics too. You can visit his excellent blog James Bond in Our Sights here:
http://www.jamesbondinoursights.blogspot.co.uk
Thank you also for your kind words - The Bondologist Blog has had over 6000 hits since I began last year and I hope to reach a wider and more mainstream audience with my The Bondologist Blog soon with a lot of new content appearing over the 2013-2014 season. I'd love to write a book on Bond as I have many ideas I want to get "out there" and share with the online and indeed the offline James Bond fan community. It's all really a work in progress - I specialise in the esoteric, unsung, unnoticed, and alternative aspects of the literary and cinematic James Bond and I want all Bond fans to watch my blog space! Here's hoping audience figures increase sufficiently for this to happen in the 2013-2014 period!
P.S. Another great James Bond and spy fiction blog by spy novelist and Bond aficiando Jeremy Duns, another online friend of mine, at The Debrief, here:
http://www.jeremyduns.blogspot.com
Some great reading on all of these three James Bond blogs, if I do say so myself, and I do!
I’ve just read your article, 'Kingsley Amis, Drax’s Gambit and the Reform of the Action Sequences in the James Bond Films', again, fascinating stuff.
http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/kingsley-amis-draxs-gambit-and-reform.html
By the way, would you recommend buying 'Being James Bond'—a book about how to live his lifestyle?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Being-James-Bond-Edition-ebook/dp/B0041HXPDW
I’ve only read mixed reviews of it, and can’t decide what to do?
Thanks for the compliments on my most recent article - there's a lot more to come in that vein. I have to revise the topic list on the blog soon, amending and changing titlews etc. on some of the "forthcoming attractions" on The Bondologist Blog.
There are many other blogs and sites about James Bond - but I think those I mentioned, as well as zencat's The Book Bond site are among the best I've at least visited!
I've vaguely heard of the 'Being James Bond' book - itt sounds like a more extensive version of Kingsley Amis' The Book of Bond or Every Man His Own 007 (1965), a fun concordance to the James Bond character of the books. It wouldn't really interest me, but the reviews seem positive and they say its much more than a mere "how to be James Bond book." This appears to only be the first volume, a second volume may be on the way. I'd say go for it if you're interested. I might even buy it myself if I can gather up enough funds!
I already have two degrees - don't think that I could at all face another one, but an interesating suggestion, nonetheless.
I do like the name osris - it has a sinister element to it, to my mind (a bit like OVRA, Mussolini's secret police)!
Never say never - just PM a mod like Sir Miles or Hardyboy and they should be able to change your username for you!
I changed my username from 'SILHOUETTE' to 'SILHOUETTE MAN', a name I used to be better klnown by over on CBn.
As Paul Ross (brother of Jonathan Ross) said in a Bond programme in the mid-1990s the licence to kill that comes with being a member of the elite double-O section is in reality a very evil power that you are trusting an agent such as James Bond and his colleagues with, and you are trusting that an agent such as the well-documented James Bond will not turn into a psychopath and use his abuse his power of the licence to kill in the line of duty. Thankfully, James Bond in print and in film always seemed to kill the correct people and no innocents were ever really killed, although for an exploration of the shades of grey in this area see Daniel Craig's James Bond films - especially Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace, where matters get somewhat more complicated.
Just some additional thought that I thought I would share with you there, osris. Hope to hear back from you soon.
A non-00 would be just like real MI6 field operatives. They gather intelligence in foreign
countries buy either using local paid informants or by posing as someone in a profession that would give them access to the area they want to get information on (a journalist, engineer, computer tech, import/export businessman, ext.). The 00's can operate in the same way, but
the main difference is they are also trained the way today's special forces are trained. They are sanctioned to assassinate enemies who are either targeted by the government in order
to eliminate an immediate threat or possible future threat, as well as kill in self defense in the
line of duty (such as a law enforcement officer or soldier is). Fleming created the fictional 00 section based on the Special Operations Executive (you should check out the history of this) agents that worked during the war. Unlike the commandos who were used mainly for coastal raiding, the SOE agents were sent in behind the lines to work with underground forces in gathering intelligence, assassination and sabotage work (the action section of the OSS did the same type of missions). This was no longer needed after WWII, but Fleming thought that in light of the cold war in would make sense to have an elite department within the Service made up of just a few officers who would continue to be trained to carry out similar missions when called for. 00's like Bond were considered disposable assets. For example, if Bond had
killed Le Chiffre himself in CR (the novel) and had been arrested by the French police, the Service would disavow any knowledge of him. The interesting thing about Bond in particular however, is that Fleming usually put him in situations where he had to kill the villain or villains in self defense, which by most legal standards in countries that have justice systems like ours would detain him until self defense was proven and then he would be let go. It was a clever way Fleming had Bond perform his missions as a 00 so he would never be arrested for murder.
A very erudite post, sir. You've made the argument better than I did above. You are quite right - in English law self defence is a complete defence to a murder charge if proved beyond reasonable doubt.