LOL! It would've been pretty darn hilarious to see DC let loose with a big "NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" following Vesper's death. 'Course, it would also have ruined the franchise. )
I always thought it was in character. It's not shocking to me that Bond did this. He couldn't exactly just take the corpse around with him, could he? I almost think that the feeling of not caring where someones body is dumped is mutual - somewhere down the line Bond could die on a job and need to be abandoned. It just reiterates the point that you can't really have 'true' friends when you are in Bonds field of work. If it had been Felix then I could understand the controversy but Mathis really was just a disposable ally to Bond however fond of him he was.
It's just like Roger Moore knocking that little boy off the boat in TMWTGG, but a little more intense. Same message though - Bond just needed rid of them.
I always thought it was in character. It's not shocking to me that Bond did this. He couldn't exactly just take the corpse around with him, could he? I almost think that the feeling of not caring where someones body is dumped is mutual - somewhere down the line Bond could die on a job and need to be abandoned. It just reiterates the point that you can't really have 'true' friends when you are in Bonds field of work. If it had been Felix then I could understand the controversy but Mathis really was just a disposable ally to Bond however fond of him he was.
It's just like Roger Moore knocking that little boy off the boat in TMWTGG, but a little more intense. Same message though - Bond just needed rid of them.
I also agree with virtually all of this, for what it's worth. It IS completely in-character. My only issues were...
1) Take the whole wallet or don't take anything since if he just takes cash and leaves credit cards (which are visible), that tips off the Carabinieri immediately.
2) The musical score doesn't fit well, have it turn darker or slow it down slightly as they pan onto Mathis's body.
3) Did a dumpster have to be the deus ex machina? Would a culvert or storm drain (and yes, you could see his face from certain camera angles in the former case and see his whole body easily in the latter case) also be possible to make the scene work? I would say yes, it would still have worked. I mean, if throwing a guy into what amounts to a sewer isn't treating his body like literal garbage/gets the exact same message across, I don't know what does.
The one and only thing I disagree with is Moore pushing the boy overboard being analogous. It was played for laughs ("bloody tourist!") only. This was played for serious character development.
The one and only thing I disagree with is Moore pushing the boy overboard being analogous. It was played for laughs ("bloody tourist!") only. This was played for serious character development.
I understand your point, but both instances show Bond doing what's best for HIS situation regardless of the moral/humanitarian obligation as a feeling functioning connected human being.... which he clearly is not due to his formative emotional baggage & chosen profession.
The one and only thing I disagree with is Moore pushing the boy overboard being analogous. It was played for laughs ("bloody tourist!") only. This was played for serious character development.
Of course I agree! I'm just trying to make the point that any baggage big or small has to be dealt with. Whether it be pushing the kid off the boat or dumping a body in a dumpster.
1) Take the whole wallet or don't take anything since if he just takes cash and leaves credit cards (which are visible), that tips off the Carabinieri immediately.
2) The musical score doesn't fit well, have it turn darker or slow it down slightly as they pan onto Mathis's body.
3) Did a dumpster have to be the deus ex machina? Would a culvert or storm drain (and yes, you could see his face from certain camera angles in the former case and see his whole body easily in the latter case) also be possible to make the scene work? I would say yes, it would still have worked. I mean, if throwing a guy into what amounts to a sewer isn't treating his body like literal garbage/gets the exact same message across, I don't know what does.
Perhaps Bond just needed the cash. After what had just happened he can't have exactly been thinking straight, probably just an impulse snatch of something handy and nothing more.
I've never noticed the score as a problem. I can agree from watching it again that it doesn't stand out as particularly amazing either. Maybe just trying to play it down to emphasize that Bond can't wait around and sympathize.
I don't think that is HAD to be a dumpster. It just happened to be a dumpster. Obviously though the writers have chosen it to be this way. Had it been a culvert I think the scene would have still worked - as it would also work with a dumpster, a ditch, in an alley way or whatever. It's the act of dumping his body that hits you, not where it's dumped. It just seems that a dumpster would be an obvious choice because it reinforces the whole message.
I know many make the reasoning that it's what ( In their opinion ) the
Bond of the novels would do. Although I wonder how this scene plays
with Non Bond fans, just regular cimena goers.
I also think the very fact that the reasoning behind this scene is still
being discussed shows how Badly filmed it was. In the hands of a better
Director it may well of been self-explainatory and passed with little
comment. ) Oh who am I kidding Fans would be discussing this for years.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
I also think the very fact that the reasoning behind this scene is still
being discussed shows how Badly filmed it was.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
Of course I agree! I'm just trying to make the point that any baggage big or small has to be dealt with. Whether it be pushing the kid off the boat or dumping a body in a dumpster.
In that case, I agree.
It's the act of dumping his body that hits you, not where it's dumped.
I think that's what they were going for, but, well...read my prior posts, I'm not gonna type it out again.
After what had just happened he can't have exactly been thinking straight, probably just an impulse snatch of something handy and nothing more.
Possible, although it gets a little confusing there. If that's the case, I'd prefer to show him a bit more visibly disoriented (i.e. the same facial expression he has as he lays Mathis in the dumpster). Still, it does make sense. See below.
I can agree from watching it again that it doesn't stand out as particularly amazing either. Maybe just trying to play it down to emphasize that Bond can't wait around and sympathize.
Music is always a matter of taste as to what conveys what emotions. To me, they'll never have gotten this one right, especially since as I viewed the scene over a few times (to see if I could ignore the dumpster), it actually started feeling worse and not better. Ironically, though, the "not thinking straight" angle regarding Mathis's wallet becomes clearer.
Honestly, I think it was a great idea just not all that terrifically executed.
-{ My point exactly. ) My problem with the scene is it's wasn't filmed very
well. ) and Bond's character isn't consistent. In the next Scene he says "He'll make Much more when he, sells us Out "
He says this with a smile, so he's not too worried about it. Which ( To me at least )
seems at odds with his Bad ass/Cold blooded killer, from the Mathis scene.
I'm guessing it has to do with the writers strike and two non script writers trying
to cobble together a half decent script.
IMHO, They Failed. :007) while others think it's modern Shakespeare. )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,871MI6 Agent
Honestly, I think it was a great idea just not all that terrifically executed.
-{ My point exactly. ) My problem with the scene is it's wasn't filmed very
well. ) and Bond's character isn't consistent. In the next Scene he says "He'll make Much more when he, sells us Out "
He says this with a smile, so he's not too worried about it. Which ( To me at least )
seems at odds with his Bad ass/Cold blooded killer, from the Mathis scene.
I'm guessing it has to do with the writers strike and two non script writers trying
to cobble together a half decent script.
IMHO, They Failed. :007) while others think it's modern Shakespeare. )
Yes, the scene is definitely flawed in its execution, but powerfl nonetheless. We've had 45 replies so far - this is a very interesting topic to many of our members, clearly.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
the screen writers had to come up with something,,, bond is on the run by then,, has no money, and it would have been wrong to have just left the body in the street,
i always thought it was a shame mathis was killed off, he could have been developed into future films,,
imagine,,, skyfall, bond rings mathis,, "hello Mate, what you upto ? meet me in scotland for a few days eh?"...
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,871MI6 Agent
the screen writers had to come up with something,,, bond is on the run by then,, has no money, and it would have been wrong to have just left the body in the street,
i always thought it was a shame mathis was killed off, he could have been developed into future films,,
imagine,,, skyfall, bond rings mathis,, "hello Mate, what you upto ? meet me in scotland for a few days eh?"...
Yes, Mathis is a great throwback to the great allies of the James Bond films of old - of course this meant that he had to be killed off forthwith!
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
i always thought it was a shame mathis was killed off, he could have been developed into future films
I agree -{ Mathis could of become one of the team Like F Leiter.
Not in every film but Popping up from time to time.
Absolutely agree with you - really enjoyed Mathis as a character & it's a shame that he won't be in future films.
Having said that, I thought the 'body dumping' scene was a superb scene and totally in character / playing the situation that Bond was in at the time. The coldness of his character & the so-called blunt instrument approach to his work almost necessitated him doing something like this. Likewise, when in that situation, I think that getting his hands on ready cash would be his priority, followed by a swift exit. After all it was clear that he didn't know who he could trust there.
I thought the 'body dumping' scene was a superb scene and totally in character / playing the situation that Bond was in at the time. The coldness of his character & the so-called blunt instrument approach to his work almost necessitated him doing something like this.
Could someone Please explain how this, Cold Blunt instrument. In the Next scene when he
Knows the guy who is hiring the Plane to him is "Going to sell them Out " He does NOTHING.
He doesn't tie him up, or knock him out, Even Kill him. He is after all, A Cold /blunt instrument.
But NO he smiles and makes a joke about it. IHMO very Inconsistant, CR was all about Bond
being Betrayed and his agnst at having to deal with it. Yet this betrayal, He's Fine with. )
I know many like QOS and Even I have softened to it but I still feel it was a badly made film, I
do think there is a good film in there somewhere, Given a more talented director and having a
propper Screenwriter It may of been great.
So I'll leave it here, I have to go and have this Horse Buried. )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
In TWINE Bond was dumping The body of an Enemy, While in
QOS is was a Friend. As I've stated in the Past.
If you can Imagine Bond Dumping the bodies of Quarrel or Kerim Bey
In to a near by Dumster, Then the scene is Fine with No Problems. If
on the other hand you think of Bond regarding Friendship very highly
The scene is jarring.
As whith all things Bond there is NO right or wrong answer, Simply
how you Feel about the scene.
I can imagine Bond dumping Kerim Bey as a necessary operational expedient, however there would be recognition of some sort, a flicker of regret and possibly anger that demonstrated the friendship and value. It needn't be big, a small jesture or expression could have conveyed all that was necessary, but we got nothing at all, and it's that which jars for me, just a step too far in my view.
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,871MI6 Agent
In TWINE Bond was dumping The body of an Enemy, While in
QOS is was a Friend. As I've stated in the Past.
If you can Imagine Bond Dumping the bodies of Quarrel or Kerim Bey
In to a near by Dumster, Then the scene is Fine with No Problems. If
on the other hand you think of Bond regarding Friendship very highly
The scene is jarring.
As whith all things Bond there is NO right or wrong answer, Simply
how you Feel about the scene.
I can imagine Bond dumping Kerim Bey as a necessary operational expedient, however there would be recognition of some sort, a flicker of regret and possibly anger that demonstrated the friendship and value. It needn't be big, a small jesture or expression could have conveyed all that was necessary, but we got nothing at all, and it's that which jars for me, just a step too far in my view.
Yes, indeed. Well said, zaphod. I too think that the sequence leaves a lot to be desired and leaves one feeling unfulfilled. It is as if Forster could not wait to get the scene over with quickly enough to move on to the next action sequence. Sometimes, Forster could have done with slowing the bullet's velocity way down and this was one such occasion if ever thwere was one, surely.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Q: How many existentialists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: Two. One to screw it in and one to observe how the light bulb
itself symbolizes a single incandescent beacon of subjective
reality in a netherworld of endless absurdity reaching out toward a
maudlin cosmos of nothingness.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Q: How many existentialists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: Two. One to screw it in and one to observe how the light bulb
itself symbolizes a single incandescent beacon of subjective
reality in a netherworld of endless absurdity reaching out toward a
maudlin cosmos of nothingness.
This assumes we are actually conscious and not in a Matrix.
This assumes we are actually conscious and not in a Matrix.
Broccoli was actually planning to have a James Bond movie set in the Matrix, but Kevin McClory claimed it was all his idea and it had to be scrapped... not.
Q} How many Bond fans does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A} 11,287. One to screw it in, and the rest to argue that their favourite Bond could have done a better job.
I also think the very fact that the reasoning behind this scene is still
being discussed shows how Badly filmed it was.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )
Q: WHAT DO YOU WANT!!??
M: Well, I was told outside that...
Q: DON'T GIVE ME THAT YOU SNOTTY FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!!!!
M: What?
Q: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOP YOU TIT!!!, YOUR TYPE REALLY MAKES ME PUKE!! YOU VACUOUS, COFFEE NOSED, MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!
M: LOOK! I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT! I'M NOT GOING TO JUST STAND AND....
Q: OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse!
M: Oh, I see, well, that explains it.
Q: Ah yes, you want room 12A, next door.
M: Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry.
Q: Not at all.
M: Thank You.
Q: you stupid git.....
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
1) Take the whole wallet or don't take anything since if he just takes cash and leaves credit cards (which are visible), that tips off the Carabinieri immediately.
I am first to admit that I am getting a little late into the fray, but let me get just this one bit straight: You are sincerely of the opinion, that by taking the whole wallet, the scene would have been more realistic? And this is because of your understanding of how criminals and law enforcement works?
So killing of two (2)! motorcycle cops and a former (?) intelligence officer would be dismissed as a robbery in NY if a wallet is missing?
I know you are kidding, right?
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,871MI6 Agent
Camille saying to James Bond as an onlooker "Is that how yo treat yor friends?" is also meant to be an indictment on Bond putting his friend and ally Mathis' body in the dumper also, I take it?
Discuss.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
I think as Bond answers "He wouldn't have minded " it's a reference to how in CR Mathis says
something like. "Just because you're dead,doesn't mean you can't be useful "
Although I think if Bond had repeated this line, it might of helped better explain why he
was doing it.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Comments
LOL! It would've been pretty darn hilarious to see DC let loose with a big "NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" following Vesper's death. 'Course, it would also have ruined the franchise.
It's just like Roger Moore knocking that little boy off the boat in TMWTGG, but a little more intense. Same message though - Bond just needed rid of them.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
I also agree with virtually all of this, for what it's worth. It IS completely in-character. My only issues were...
1) Take the whole wallet or don't take anything since if he just takes cash and leaves credit cards (which are visible), that tips off the Carabinieri immediately.
2) The musical score doesn't fit well, have it turn darker or slow it down slightly as they pan onto Mathis's body.
3) Did a dumpster have to be the deus ex machina? Would a culvert or storm drain (and yes, you could see his face from certain camera angles in the former case and see his whole body easily in the latter case) also be possible to make the scene work? I would say yes, it would still have worked. I mean, if throwing a guy into what amounts to a sewer isn't treating his body like literal garbage/gets the exact same message across, I don't know what does.
The one and only thing I disagree with is Moore pushing the boy overboard being analogous. It was played for laughs ("bloody tourist!") only. This was played for serious character development.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Of course I agree! I'm just trying to make the point that any baggage big or small has to be dealt with. Whether it be pushing the kid off the boat or dumping a body in a dumpster.
Perhaps Bond just needed the cash. After what had just happened he can't have exactly been thinking straight, probably just an impulse snatch of something handy and nothing more.
I've never noticed the score as a problem. I can agree from watching it again that it doesn't stand out as particularly amazing either. Maybe just trying to play it down to emphasize that Bond can't wait around and sympathize.
I don't think that is HAD to be a dumpster. It just happened to be a dumpster. Obviously though the writers have chosen it to be this way. Had it been a culvert I think the scene would have still worked - as it would also work with a dumpster, a ditch, in an alley way or whatever. It's the act of dumping his body that hits you, not where it's dumped. It just seems that a dumpster would be an obvious choice because it reinforces the whole message.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Bond of the novels would do. Although I wonder how this scene plays
with Non Bond fans, just regular cimena goers.
I also think the very fact that the reasoning behind this scene is still
being discussed shows how Badly filmed it was. In the hands of a better
Director it may well of been self-explainatory and passed with little
comment.
Oh who am I kidding Fans would be discussing this for years.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
In that case, I agree.
I think that's what they were going for, but, well...read my prior posts, I'm not gonna type it out again.
Possible, although it gets a little confusing there. If that's the case, I'd prefer to show him a bit more visibly disoriented (i.e. the same facial expression he has as he lays Mathis in the dumpster). Still, it does make sense. See below.
Music is always a matter of taste as to what conveys what emotions. To me, they'll never have gotten this one right, especially since as I viewed the scene over a few times (to see if I could ignore the dumpster), it actually started feeling worse and not better. Ironically, though, the "not thinking straight" angle regarding Mathis's wallet becomes clearer.
Probably.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
-{ My point exactly.
well.
"He'll make Much more when he, sells us Out "
He says this with a smile, so he's not too worried about it. Which ( To me at least )
seems at odds with his Bad ass/Cold blooded killer, from the Mathis scene.
I'm guessing it has to do with the writers strike and two non script writers trying
to cobble together a half decent script.
IMHO, They Failed. :007) while others think it's modern Shakespeare.
Yes, the scene is definitely flawed in its execution, but powerfl nonetheless. We've had 45 replies so far - this is a very interesting topic to many of our members, clearly.
i always thought it was a shame mathis was killed off, he could have been developed into future films,,
imagine,,, skyfall, bond rings mathis,, "hello Mate, what you upto ? meet me in scotland for a few days eh?"...
Yes, Mathis is a great throwback to the great allies of the James Bond films of old - of course this meant that he had to be killed off forthwith!
I agree -{ Mathis could of become one of the team Like F Leiter.
Not in every film but Popping up from time to time.
Absolutely agree with you - really enjoyed Mathis as a character & it's a shame that he won't be in future films.
Having said that, I thought the 'body dumping' scene was a superb scene and totally in character / playing the situation that Bond was in at the time. The coldness of his character & the so-called blunt instrument approach to his work almost necessitated him doing something like this. Likewise, when in that situation, I think that getting his hands on ready cash would be his priority, followed by a swift exit. After all it was clear that he didn't know who he could trust there.
Ens007 wrote :
Could someone Please explain how this, Cold Blunt instrument. In the Next scene when he
Knows the guy who is hiring the Plane to him is "Going to sell them Out " He does NOTHING.
He doesn't tie him up, or knock him out, Even Kill him. He is after all, A Cold /blunt instrument.
But NO he smiles and makes a joke about it. IHMO very Inconsistant, CR was all about Bond
being Betrayed and his agnst at having to deal with it. Yet this betrayal, He's Fine with.
I know many like QOS and Even I have softened to it but I still feel it was a badly made film, I
do think there is a good film in there somewhere, Given a more talented director and having a
propper Screenwriter It may of been great.
So I'll leave it here, I have to go and have this Horse Buried.
I can imagine Bond dumping Kerim Bey as a necessary operational expedient, however there would be recognition of some sort, a flicker of regret and possibly anger that demonstrated the friendship and value. It needn't be big, a small jesture or expression could have conveyed all that was necessary, but we got nothing at all, and it's that which jars for me, just a step too far in my view.
Yes, indeed. Well said, zaphod. I too think that the sequence leaves a lot to be desired and leaves one feeling unfulfilled. It is as if Forster could not wait to get the scene over with quickly enough to move on to the next action sequence. Sometimes, Forster could have done with slowing the bullet's velocity way down and this was one such occasion if ever thwere was one, surely.
Bond is an existentialist, but at it's root existentialism has responsibility (see Sartre Existentialism & Humanism)
Q: How many existentialists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: Two. One to screw it in and one to observe how the light bulb
itself symbolizes a single incandescent beacon of subjective
reality in a netherworld of endless absurdity reaching out toward a
maudlin cosmos of nothingness.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Broccoli was actually planning to have a James Bond movie set in the Matrix, but Kevin McClory claimed it was all his idea and it had to be scrapped... not.
Q} How many Bond fans does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A} 11,287. One to screw it in, and the rest to argue that their favourite Bond could have done a better job.
Q: WHAT DO YOU WANT!!??
M: Well, I was told outside that...
Q: DON'T GIVE ME THAT YOU SNOTTY FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!!!!
M: What?
Q: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOP YOU TIT!!!, YOUR TYPE REALLY MAKES ME PUKE!! YOU VACUOUS, COFFEE NOSED, MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!
M: LOOK! I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT! I'M NOT GOING TO JUST STAND AND....
Q: OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse!
M: Oh, I see, well, that explains it.
Q: Ah yes, you want room 12A, next door.
M: Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry.
Q: Not at all.
M: Thank You.
Q: you stupid git.....
-Mr Arlington Beech
I am first to admit that I am getting a little late into the fray, but let me get just this one bit straight: You are sincerely of the opinion, that by taking the whole wallet, the scene would have been more realistic? And this is because of your understanding of how criminals and law enforcement works?
So killing of two (2)! motorcycle cops and a former (?) intelligence officer would be dismissed as a robbery in NY if a wallet is missing?
I know you are kidding, right?
-Mr Arlington Beech
Discuss.
something like. "Just because you're dead,doesn't mean you can't be useful "
Although I think if Bond had repeated this line, it might of helped better explain why he
was doing it.