Why Skyfall Was One of The Worst Bond Films
forenglandjames
Posts: 8MI6 Agent
Ok I will admit I enjoyed the action of SF but when you peel away the action and look at the story; it makes no sense!
First of all the timeline is all out of date. Judi Dench should never have been in the reboot because she was Brosnans era. If CR, QOS and SF are meant to be before DN then surely in those times it would have been a male M? Why is Felix Lighter and Moneypenny now black/white/black? The Aston Martin in SF is similar to the one from GF but bond hasn't done that mission yet has he? Daniel Craig has done 4 missions as a 00 agent in QOS and now he is too old and past it. We haven't got started yet!
Second of all the plot makes no sense. Silva relies on sheer luck the whole film. He got an assassin to steal the hard drive (which we never heard about since) and then Bond got shot by Eve who apparently only had one bullet in her gun and no time to reload but enough time to stare at the assassin with guilt trip eyes. Then he assumed bond would find the assassin, take the chip, go to the casino, fight off the bodyguards and NOT DIE, win over his girlfriend, sneak on a boat, escape his trap and call for help. He then assumed Q would plug in the computer to MI6 and assume he would be kept in the same room they had when he was an agent! And in the end where the hell is this hard drive? It was never recovered. That plot was just binned after we find out he has vengance for M! How did Silva also know that M would have a court hearing that day and how could he plan guards being at the train station waiting for him? How did he escape his cell when 2 armed security guards were standing watching him 12 feet away? And the bomb in the train station was detonated when Bond nearly caught him. Did he know he would be nearly caught there? And where the hell does an ex sold out agent get money for super computers, henchmen, boats etc. Did he win the euro millions? It would have made more sense if Quantum funded him.
Thirdly why send Bond after Silva? He failed all his tests! He clearly wasn't fit enough and the whole nation was at stake. What if Bond failed? Was M thinking "I'm already screwed so why not eh?" She wouldn't be able to make decisions after the first mission failed she would be suspended posting an investigation would she not? Was 008 and 009 on holiday that week? M and 007 would not have a close trust relationship like she did with Brosnan because Craig is NEW. Just through the door agent who would not have had time (4 missions) to build a chemistry with M. But who knows when this film takes place in the Bond franchise!!! So when M is in danger is it not best to call in OTHER agents, SAS, the army? No let Bond kidnap her and effectively get her killed. Shouldn't he be punished for that? Two men, a woman and three guns against 30 henchmen. Bond can manage that any day if he has too but he never puts himself in those positions.
So the agents were leeked and killed, M died and Silva died. Who the hell won? Certainly not MI6 which is why Bond should be hung for what happened. Since Goldeneye (which was the last film Albert "Cubby" Broccoli had any influence over cause he died after it) there hasn't been a DECENT bond film. TND was ok but again it was a pointless plot. TWINE was a bit better but then DAD just ripped the utter crap out off bond. CR was a decent reboot if you look past the flaws in characters and then it was destroyed in credibility by its predecessor QOS. And who makes these? Barbara Broccoli. The one trying to melt the bond image down and mould it all from scratch with Michael Wilson. If Albert saw these films now I think he'd turn in his grave. So honestly I do not see what the big fuss is about this being the "best bond film yet" because as a BOND fan it does not fit the Bond franchise very well I feel.
First of all the timeline is all out of date. Judi Dench should never have been in the reboot because she was Brosnans era. If CR, QOS and SF are meant to be before DN then surely in those times it would have been a male M? Why is Felix Lighter and Moneypenny now black/white/black? The Aston Martin in SF is similar to the one from GF but bond hasn't done that mission yet has he? Daniel Craig has done 4 missions as a 00 agent in QOS and now he is too old and past it. We haven't got started yet!
Second of all the plot makes no sense. Silva relies on sheer luck the whole film. He got an assassin to steal the hard drive (which we never heard about since) and then Bond got shot by Eve who apparently only had one bullet in her gun and no time to reload but enough time to stare at the assassin with guilt trip eyes. Then he assumed bond would find the assassin, take the chip, go to the casino, fight off the bodyguards and NOT DIE, win over his girlfriend, sneak on a boat, escape his trap and call for help. He then assumed Q would plug in the computer to MI6 and assume he would be kept in the same room they had when he was an agent! And in the end where the hell is this hard drive? It was never recovered. That plot was just binned after we find out he has vengance for M! How did Silva also know that M would have a court hearing that day and how could he plan guards being at the train station waiting for him? How did he escape his cell when 2 armed security guards were standing watching him 12 feet away? And the bomb in the train station was detonated when Bond nearly caught him. Did he know he would be nearly caught there? And where the hell does an ex sold out agent get money for super computers, henchmen, boats etc. Did he win the euro millions? It would have made more sense if Quantum funded him.
Thirdly why send Bond after Silva? He failed all his tests! He clearly wasn't fit enough and the whole nation was at stake. What if Bond failed? Was M thinking "I'm already screwed so why not eh?" She wouldn't be able to make decisions after the first mission failed she would be suspended posting an investigation would she not? Was 008 and 009 on holiday that week? M and 007 would not have a close trust relationship like she did with Brosnan because Craig is NEW. Just through the door agent who would not have had time (4 missions) to build a chemistry with M. But who knows when this film takes place in the Bond franchise!!! So when M is in danger is it not best to call in OTHER agents, SAS, the army? No let Bond kidnap her and effectively get her killed. Shouldn't he be punished for that? Two men, a woman and three guns against 30 henchmen. Bond can manage that any day if he has too but he never puts himself in those positions.
So the agents were leeked and killed, M died and Silva died. Who the hell won? Certainly not MI6 which is why Bond should be hung for what happened. Since Goldeneye (which was the last film Albert "Cubby" Broccoli had any influence over cause he died after it) there hasn't been a DECENT bond film. TND was ok but again it was a pointless plot. TWINE was a bit better but then DAD just ripped the utter crap out off bond. CR was a decent reboot if you look past the flaws in characters and then it was destroyed in credibility by its predecessor QOS. And who makes these? Barbara Broccoli. The one trying to melt the bond image down and mould it all from scratch with Michael Wilson. If Albert saw these films now I think he'd turn in his grave. So honestly I do not see what the big fuss is about this being the "best bond film yet" because as a BOND fan it does not fit the Bond franchise very well I feel.
STOP IT! Your like....boys with toys!
Comments
As you state, this is a REBOOTED series. New timeline, parallel universe, etc. Nothing prior to Casino Royale took place in the "Daniel Craig universe". No Dr No... No Die Another Day... those stories or missions either have not happened yet, may never happen or happened off screen differently from the films/novels that have come before.
The Judi-M was M when Bond got his 00 status. The Bernard Lee M was M when the "original universe" Bond got his.
As far as plot holes or logic, they are just movies. Actually, the whole "send Bond after Siva when he wasn't ready yet" was lifted DIRECTLY from Fleming's novel The Man With The Golden Gun. Not logical, but it is Fleming! A welcome sight in the 007 film series!
Next you'll be telling me that Argo isn't a documentary.
I think that Cubby would approve of them making money, if he were a purist then stuff like YOLT, DAF and MR would never have happened. A movie like Dredd is an example of can happen if you have integrity - a flop!
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Skyfall is an independent Bond film to CR and QoS. There is no mention anywhere that it comes immediately after QoS. For all we know it is situated anywhere in the timeline. I sort of understand what you mean about Judi Dench being M back before bond was a 00, but I look at it as a modern re-telling of how Bond came to be. The black/white changes of Moneypenny and Felix Leiter mean nothing to anyone so let's just skip right over that.
I think everyone can agree that the plot is farfetched. It doesn't spoil the fun for me though, of course, just like all previous farfetched plots haven't in Bond films. I'm not too sure whether I can prove you wrong at all here as this plot IS really complex and unbelievable. The way I see it though is that Silva was controlling the situation the whole time. He hacks MI6 and knows what they are upto. Its more that just assumption on Silva's part. He can see into the computers, so knows that they are looking at the assassin Patrice and know that Bond is being sent after him despite having failed tests. So he can assume from here that Bond - being the agent that he is, will find Patrice. At this point, Silva may have planted the casino chip on Patrice or something, knowing is Bond was to overcome him he would use it as a lead to the next stage. He stations Severine at the casino to wait not knowing whether Bond will show or not. The next part is an interesting bit; I've heard people interpret it in different ways. In the cinema, when Bond guesses Severine's story it comes across as though he has it right - but I think now she was sent to lure him to the island. She tells him what he wants to hear knowing she can't over power him herself and set's a final challenge to him to beat those guards - probably just for more action in the film to be honest. Now, when they arrive on the island and Bond is lead away Severine says "I'm sorry". This could mean 2 things. She's sorry for luring Bond there under Silva's orders, or she's sorry for asking him to come and kill Silva knowing that he may well fail. It makes more sense that she lured him there, but I suppose it could happen the other way. Silva now meets Bond and shows us that he has quick easy access to the MI6 computers. He states he that he can manipulate the stock markets and elections all to the highest bidder - explaining why he is rich. Obviously at this point things get hazy. He kills Severine, supposedly because once he travels to London he can't leave behind anyone who may jeopardize his plan - or of course, because the guards on the Boat tell him she had sex with Bond. Silva GIVES bond a gun, knowing he will jump on this opportunity to lay out the other guards leaving Silva to be caught. Presumably he knows Bond has been equipped with a radio because he seems to have access to anything regarding Bonds mission. And so, Silva is caught.
I know all of that seems unlikely - but wait til you hear the next bit!
Q says to Bond that he knows after the explosion at MI6 that Silva would know they would relocate down into the underground place. A lot of people seem to think that this is a lucky guess. But let's not remember how much access Silva has to the computers. He is hacking them ALL THE TIME, not just the time's where MI6 go "Oh god! He hacked us!". We see in his lair that he can access things all the time undetected, let's not confuse that with when he makes traps over the computers so things can happen. He's probably been sitting all day in that room just looking at what MI6 are upto. He will have seen on their database where the relocation was going to be, AND at some point will have seen something along the lines of - "M won't be available at this time on this date due to her court case". So, from possibly the day M's court case was announced he knew where she was going to be AND where the new MI6 was. This gives him time to plan the next few steps. He obviously has access to the maps of the underground and studies them - he knows Granborough Road station will be empty as it is shut. So he plans a route from MI6 to the court room via the underground. At this point, he knows he will have to escape from wherever he is locked up. We can assume because he sets up the hack to open EVERY DOOR that he doesn't know exactly where he will be kept. He didn't guess he'd be in THAT EXACT CHAMBER in THAT EXACT PLACE. Or surely he would just open the doors he needs so as not to alert as much suspicion and security. Obviously he needs a way of opening these doors, and knows once he is caught that Q branch will attempt to hack his files because he is safely locked up. "Not such a clever boy" suggest that this was just a silly Mistake by Q that Silva has predicted. And so! The doors are open!
This is the bit where things get..well..yeah.
So he runs off down tube station - followed by Bond. We know at this point that Silva can't have had his detonator on him in the cell because he would have obviously been searched. So we know that somewhere down the route from the cell to that ladder, someone has planted the device for him. A few things could explain this. He clearly has people working for him all over london as we find out when he gets the police gear handed to him in the tube. So, and I know this sounds unlikely and is a conclusion that takes a lot of thinking to get to, what is stopping one of Silvas helpers tracking his movements. They obviously knew somehow he was on his way so they could give him his police gear and pick him up in the police car. So, we MUST assume they are tracking his movements and the moment he is out of his high security cell it's time to act. One of them is waiting in the tubes and the moment Silva is on the move, he sets up the bomb and leaves the detonator for Silva to find. Now, whether the train that Bond is nearly hit by is part of the plan is debatable - we'll have to assume it's just unlucky for Bond. The most Silva could know is that he's barred the door Bond will have to get through and that MAYBE a train will come while he's trying to get through. Now, Silva is handed police gear by two imposters, so obviously he has help with him in the tubes. Silva knows where the court case is so is obviously going to get the train there - but how does he know that a train will be leaving exactly when he wants it to be? I can't explain it. I suppose he just got lucky that it was Rush Hour - and, come to think of it, VERY LUCKY that this even happened while the court case was happening. He could probably have pin pointed it to the day - but to the hours where the court case was actaully in session - very lucky. Either way I'm trying my best here! So, he's on the train and Bond is in pursuit. If Silva has people tracking his movements like he must have, there is an imposter who can see he is on his way and sets up the bomb and leaves the detonator behind the door for Silva. Bond sees the door ajar and follows. The imposter is already up the ladder and away to alert the police car that picks Silva up. Silva hangs back a bit so Bond can catch up. BUT Whether they know a train will be coming at that exact time is impossible. I don't think I'll ever come up with an explanation as to HOW they knew the train was coming other than that is was lucky. They would know that trains go along this line very often at rush hour, but to be RIGHT there at the EXACT time MUST have been luck. But Silva's a risk taking guy - so who's to say he wouldn't leave it down to luck. Once they hear the crash, Silvas men know for sure he is on his way and pick him up and take him the court rooms. Once there, they simply take out the security and bust into the room.
AND AFTER ALL THAT - SILVA MISSES. HE HESITATES AND MISSES M. I'd be mad, wouldn't you?
That is the best I can do and there are still plot holes all over the place, but if you think about it it COULD happen. I suppose..
Oh god. Yes Craig is new..the new ACTOR. New actor, same Bond. He has the trust relationship with M because Bond does. Not Brosnan, not craig - BOND. She trusts him and knows him and sends him after Silva because of this. You go on to say "Who know's when this film takes place in the franchise!!!!" but you said earlier used the fact it was BEFORE all the others as your first reason as to why this film is one of the worst.
Bond has the understanding that Silva is one step ahead of them and decides to isolate them. He gains support from Q, Tanner and Mallory by doing this and presumably after the PM finds out that M is dead Mallory tells him that he was in charge of that decision and that decision lead to the death of the cyber terrorist in question - leading to his election as the new M.
The big thing about the ending was, that even if the villain is killed, Bond doesn't necessarily 'win'. It's a tough business he is in and these things happen. Not every mission will end with Bond 'winning'.
Also if you had any understanding of QoS at all you'd realise that is actually a very good predecessor of Casino Royale. I suggest you read the thread in the films section called something like 'best Qos review ever' - it's an eye opener. I'm admittedly not a HUGE fan of QoS either but trust me it will help!
I think you are forgetting it's a business. Babs is doing a GREAT job. She's already helped make the biggest grossing film in the UK of all time EVER so she can't be doing that bad. If Cubby was to see that, i'm sure he'd be the proudest father in the world. Not turning in his grave! What a ridiculous thing to say.
Also, welcome to AJB! -{
All Views and Opinions gratefully accepted.
I enjoyed Skyfall but do agree it's full of plot holes, But than again
many Bonds and indeed many Films in general are full of them. I've
got that I try to ignore them and Enjoy the movie, I don't worry if Bond
takes off his gloves in the skyscrapper, than has them on when Holding
on to Patrice. (I asume off camera He put them on). and Move on.
Wonder if Silva regrets not simply knocking on M's door and shooting her there and then???
Then again (in gay voice) "it's ohhhh so dull, ohhhh so boring" lol {[]
Lucky the Moonraker plot is bulletproof. Lol
Goldfinger doesn't make sense it's part of the fun escaping to a new world, Mendes knew of the potholes, he was looking further then that.
-Casino Royale, Ian Fleming
I understand what you are saying, but it was the decision of EON to pursue a realpolitik Bond movie with Craig and Mendes, in essence, they prepared the table and failed to deliver.
The problem with Skyfall was the obvious in that it was not Bond-centric . For all of the ills of Moore-Bond, they were BOND movies.
Your comment just made me realize the Craig was a bit quiet in this film and many of his lines were obvious one-liner deliveries. The film really did have us spend a lot of time seeing and hearing about others, particularly M, Silva, and Silva's proxies.
What makes you think it's my first time, waste of scotch, old-fashioned way, etc., etc.
Casino Royale felt like really learning about Bond and his romantic mistake, and then Quantum of Solace was sort of his combusting grief. SkyFall's wasn't really about Bond, and it feels strange in this Craig era to me.
I thought it was refreshing to see a film that took a different approach, presented us with something we hadn't seen before, took time to develop characterisation, showed Bond as a real person interacting with others, and not some uber-confident superman with all the answers. I guess others just don't see it that way and think it's not Bond-centric.
It certainly felt more Bond-centric than films like Moonraker or TMWTGG where Bond is little more than a circus ringmaster introducing the acts and not driving/impacting the action himself.
Yes there are plot flaws but I'm struggling to think of a Bond film without them...
I certainly don't think there is a harm in SkyFall trying something different.
Another pointless "SF bashing" thread that should just die 8-)
Different is: wrong, scary and evil. All films must be exactly the same, nothing must ever change, right?
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I'm with you 100% on this ... after all in previous Bond films it's seems perfectly reasonable & plausible to some for a bloke to bite through reinforced steel wire & have half a building site collapse on him to end up with a few minor dust marks only, for Bond to drive a car that's been cut in half through streets chasing a villain, have space shuttles / rockets galore being constantly stolen for ransom, for criminal masterminds to either a) live in a hidden volcano cave or b) an underwater lair whilst wearing various forms of a Nehru style jacket and of course should we forget our hero to managing to escape out of every conceivable life-threatening event through the use of a gadget / sheer incompetence of henchman or villains alike. Yet despite some of these ridiculous things that go on, we all love it and the concept that Bond brings to the screen / books etc.
Guess I'm in the minority in saying that I thoroughly enjoyed Skyfall, because it was what it was: action filled, beautifully shot, well acted by all, with a slight suspension of reality and some great stunts / sets. It left me wanting more & that's a winner in my book.
No you're absolutely right! Im sure it was just a mix up on both our parts!
I am going to get flack from this I know, but I severely enjoyed the begining of Quantum and would go as far as say it is the perfect Bond movie, right up to the moment the general arrives on the dock. More so than Skyfall which has a great pts (bar the driving the motorbike against the railing and flying bllsht). But Quantum has a a great PTS, awesome titles and brilliant start scenes with all the right elements. Skyfall had the best titles hands down but the opener is slowwwwww.
had the Best Titles. -{ Wow, Daniel Kleinman did
a fantastic Job.
retainer, to do All the Titles.
Bond was almost a supporting character - far too much M. I don't hate it, and liked a lot about it, but do feel that it really really is time to move on. I'm glad Mendes has passed although if he returned later it would be fine. I'd like to see Campbell back for a proper espionage adventure with Bond at the helm.