There are parts of Die Another Day that are better than parts of Goldeneye. For example the PTS in DAD is a lot more exciting. The bungee jump is cool and everything but once you've seen it it sort of loses its excitement. Not unlike the ski jump in TSWLM PTS - a great iconic moment but not as thrilling as it once was IMO. In fact, DAD's PTS is one of the most exciting of the series. I kind of think that DAD is more entertaining in general than Goldeneye is, but for the wrong reasons. But aren't movies meant to be for entertainment, even if they aren't 'good'? I really think DAD is underrated even if It's still very low in my rankings. Goldeneye is probably the 'best' of Brosnans films but certainly not the most entertaining.
Very astute observation there, Dalk. I think you're right - they threw away all the GE elements in TND - although as a satire on the power of the Media this film has regained its credibility in a way never imagined in 1997. TWINE was very mixed - an unexpected type of Bond film, really. And of course DAD was just awful - the final nail in the coffin of the so-called "classic James Bond film" era once and for all.
Allow me to expand on TWINE, then. It's certainly a FUN film and if it's on TV, I'm not going to flip the channel unless the New York Mets or Detroit Tigers happen to be playing, but I contend that it's the most uneven Bond film, in terms of the plot, that's ever been made. The most intriguing thing about TWINE is that, Denise Richards as a nuclear physicist aside, everyone stays in character WITH THEMSELVES throughout the movie in spite of this. What makes the film so uneven, I think, were its severe pacing problems and overly-complex plot.
The pacing, at times, actually rivals QoS as seemingly "sped up". Look at, for example, the helicopter attack on Zukovsky's caviar building. Or, for that matter, the fight in the submarine's control room (NOT the reactor room). The latter happens so fast we barely remember it. Yet, at other points, the pacing was ploddingly slow. Take the reactor room fight. How many times did he have to drop the reactor rod, anyway? The whole fight seemed like a slowed-down, less emotional version of the brutal (and brilliantly-paced) fight between Bond and Trevelyan on the antenna. Trevelyan, who is implied as Bond's equal at hand-to-hand combat, basically beats him after a long fight. Meanwhile, Renard, who supposedly can't feel any pain, gets into a long, protracted fight with Bond and the best he can do is just throw him down (as opposed to literally beating him bloody). If the guy can't feel pain, wouldn't he logically be a WAY more capable hand-to-hand fighter and isn't THIS where you throw in the super-quick action?
The plot also suffers from being stuck inbetween the realm of too long and too short. As a movie, it's the longest Bond of the Pre-Reboot Era. CR and SF are of course quite a bit longer, with CR beating SF by just two minutes. Yet, if one watches CR, especially, it seems shorter than TWINE, doesn't it? Likewise, each time I watched SF, it seemed shorter than TWINE. I've heard many, many times about how long TWINE was, but how many threads about CR or even SF citing running time as the problem? Yet, in spite of these complaints that the film was too long, we also see tons of complaints about characters being underdeveloped (especially Renard) or having odd "blank spots" in their backgrounds (including the single-most-developed character in the film, Elektra King).
However, the 128-minute TWINE was supposedly originally slated to go over or around 160 minutes. That's at least 32 minutes of unused footage. Although I'm NOT going to advocate for a 160-minute-long Bond film, what if they had trimmed the running time to maybe 145 minutes and filled in both Renard's background as well as some of the odd-feeling "blank spots" with the characters.
I agree it's a totally different Bond movie, SILHOUETTE MAN, but I wonder if that's less by design and more by the way they edited and paced it, giving it not the "healthy hybrid" of shoot-'em-up, beat-'em-up, good old-fashioned action and character development seen in CR, but rather the "stunted hybrid" remains of a film meant to focus on character development with intermittent action sequences that were likely grafted on some time later (I say grafted on later rather than added in at the last moment because, as mentioned, nobody really breaks character in any kind of bizarre way) that on more than one occassion just seem out of place.
Renard, who supposedly can't feel any pain, gets into a long, protracted fight with Bond and the best he can do is just throw him down (as opposed to literally beating him bloody). If the guy can't feel pain, wouldn't he logically be a WAY more capable hand-to-hand fighter
If you can't feel pain, you can't feel much, therefore, LOGICALLY, physical response to physical sensation is slowed, no matter the visual information the brain receives. Renard was already a ghost, in an almost literal sense. Except he could pull a trigger.
Renard, who supposedly can't feel any pain, gets into a long, protracted fight with Bond and the best he can do is just throw him down (as opposed to literally beating him bloody). If the guy can't feel pain, wouldn't he logically be a WAY more capable hand-to-hand fighter
If you can't feel pain, you can't feel much, therefore, LOGICALLY, physical response to physical sensation is slowed, no matter the visual information the brain receives. Renard was already a ghost, in an almost literal sense. Except he could pull a trigger.
that is probably right
"You know what's great about you English Octopussy man I must seen that movie, Twice" -the simpsons
If you can't feel pain, you can't feel much, therefore, LOGICALLY, physical response to physical sensation is slowed, no matter the visual information the brain receives. Renard was already a ghost, in an almost literal sense. Except he could pull a trigger.
Point conceded...but in that case, shouldn't he not be fighting at a breakneck pace in the control room minutes earlier? You can make the excuse that his reflexes had gotten worse from the gunfight in the missile silo, since days had passed since that had happened, if not weeks. But this was practically real-time. If the two scenes have a matching pace, I don't mind. Also, more importantly, why does BOND (who is quite alive) seem to slow down from one scene to the other in the control room and the reactor room? That's what I mean about odd pacing.
EDIT: Also, in defense of TWINE as originally shot, much of Renard's "blank spot" background WAS actually given, but wound up on the cutting room floor. Ditto the fleshing out of Elektra King's background (such as her memories of her mother AND, as a vital plot point, even playing Renard for a sucker) and some of Valentin Zukovsky's ulterior motives (plus he SURVIVES, though perhaps that was better to have left on the cutting room floor), and the almost certainly-ethnic Armenian villagers' presence and relevance to the plot is explained far better. Too bad they never pulled the trigger on giving the film a longer running time/were scared of it even running as long as it did...I bet had you even seen 145-150 minutes, it would have worked out way better than what we actually saw. If we imagine these scenes where they were originally supposed to be, the pacing of the film also seems a bit more normal and less "jumping around".
having just recently watched TWINE, it does feel like a long move, a very long one in fact. DaD for all its mistakes, is cut into a steady paced film, while Twine is all over the place.
If you can't feel pain, you can't feel much, therefore, LOGICALLY, physical response to physical sensation is slowed, no matter the visual information the brain receives. Renard was already a ghost, in an almost literal sense. Except he could pull a trigger.
Point conceded...but in that case, shouldn't he not be fighting at a breakneck pace in the control room minutes earlier? You can make the excuse that his reflexes had gotten worse from the gunfight in the missile silo, since days had passed since that had happened, if not weeks. But this was practically real-time. If the two scenes have a matching pace, I don't mind. Also, more importantly, why does BOND (who is quite alive) seem to slow down from one scene to the other in the control room and the reactor room? That's what I mean about odd pacing.
EDIT: Also, in defense of TWINE as originally shot, much of Renard's "blank spot" background WAS actually given, but wound up on the cutting room floor. Ditto the fleshing out of Elektra King's background (such as her memories of her mother AND, as a vital plot point, even playing Renard for a sucker) and some of Valentin Zukovsky's ulterior motives (plus he SURVIVES, though perhaps that was better to have left on the cutting room floor), and the almost certainly-ethnic Armenian villagers' presence and relevance to the plot is explained far better. Too bad they never pulled the trigger on giving the film a longer running time/were scared of it even running as long as it did...I bet had you even seen 145-150 minutes, it would have worked out way better than what we actually saw. If we imagine these scenes where they were originally supposed to be, the pacing of the film also seems a bit more normal and less "jumping around".
Yes, some commentators noted how TWINE was an attempt at drama that attempted to fit action set pieces rather mechanically into the narrative; as if the producers/director/writers were scared of going too far into Bondian drama and having the film actually be about something, but it seems from the cut scenes that didn't make the film version of the TWINE Bfilm that they hasd somewhat repented of their earlier daring to deliver somethingf different in the form of a James Bond film. We had to wait until the ushering in of the Daniel Craig era in 2006's Casino Royale to get our proper "drama Bond" fix from the Bond producers. There is a continuation of this drama thread from TWINE in evidence there and in CR, QoS and SF there, although very few Craigists given Pierce Brosnan and his four films very much credit.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Where can I see these deleted scenes that elaborate on Elektra and Renard's backgrounds etc? I just watched the deleted scenes on the ultimate edition DVD and they were basically useless.
My current 10 favorite:
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
Really hard to say.. I've seen some love for Dalton's film rising lately so I don't think those would count. Probably Man with the Golden Gun and Quantum of Solace... I loved both the simplistic story in MWTGG and the Daltonesque feeling of QoS. And the villains were just outstanding to me. For me, these are two of the best Bond films that most people seem to place in the bottom of their own lists.
Top Ten Bond - 10:Goldfinger 9:Thunderball 8:The Spy who Loved Me 7:For Your Eyes Only 6: Casino Royale 5:The Man with the Golden Gun 4:Quantum of Solace 3:Licence to Kill 2:Goldeneye 1:The Living Daylights
Really hard to say.. I've seen some love for Dalton's film rising lately so I don't think those would count. Probably Man with the Golden Gun and Quantum of Solace... I loved both the simplistic story in MWTGG and the Daltonesque feeling of QoS. And the villains were just outstanding to me. For me, these are two of the best Bond films that most people seem to place in the bottom of their own lists.
Really hard to say.. I've seen some love for Dalton's film rising lately so I don't think those would count. Probably Man with the Golden Gun and Quantum of Solace... I loved both the simplistic story in MWTGG and the Daltonesque feeling of QoS. And the villains were just outstanding to me. For me, these are two of the best Bond films that most people seem to place in the bottom of their own lists.
As one of Dalton's biggest fans, I'd agree that QoS is a film which would have suited Dalton's style. Personally I've come to love QoS and think it a better film that Skyfall.
When it comes to TMWTGG, I really dislike most of it, but love Christopher Lee in it and the showdown between him and Moore at the end was one of my earliest (probably first) Bond memories. TMWTGG isn't Moore's worst, but it's up there for me.
"Thank you very much. I was just out walking my RAT and seem to have lost my way... "
Where can I see these deleted scenes that elaborate on Elektra and Renard's backgrounds etc? I just watched the deleted scenes on the ultimate edition DVD and they were basically useless.
You can't. They were in the original script, but that's about it. Also, I'm fairly sure they only included some deleted scenes that very nearly made the film as opposed to those shot but cut early.
By the way, are you gonna eat that?
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
I initially thought it was a Halloween party disco ball. ) Sorry to say I share chrisisall's sentiments, but when THAT is the first thing that comes to mind, well...
By the way, are you gonna eat that?
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
I initially thought it was a Halloween party disco ball. ) Sorry to say I share chrisisall's sentiments, but when THAT is the first thing that comes to mind, well...
OK, I'll consider a change. Not overly keen on it myself - it was the first blasted avatar I got uploaded!
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
I'm sure you'll find a good one. There's nothing overtly wrong with the one you have now, actually...except that disco tunes start popping into my head when I see your avatar!
Comments
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Allow me to expand on TWINE, then. It's certainly a FUN film and if it's on TV, I'm not going to flip the channel unless the New York Mets or Detroit Tigers happen to be playing, but I contend that it's the most uneven Bond film, in terms of the plot, that's ever been made. The most intriguing thing about TWINE is that, Denise Richards as a nuclear physicist aside, everyone stays in character WITH THEMSELVES throughout the movie in spite of this. What makes the film so uneven, I think, were its severe pacing problems and overly-complex plot.
The pacing, at times, actually rivals QoS as seemingly "sped up". Look at, for example, the helicopter attack on Zukovsky's caviar building. Or, for that matter, the fight in the submarine's control room (NOT the reactor room). The latter happens so fast we barely remember it. Yet, at other points, the pacing was ploddingly slow. Take the reactor room fight. How many times did he have to drop the reactor rod, anyway? The whole fight seemed like a slowed-down, less emotional version of the brutal (and brilliantly-paced) fight between Bond and Trevelyan on the antenna. Trevelyan, who is implied as Bond's equal at hand-to-hand combat, basically beats him after a long fight. Meanwhile, Renard, who supposedly can't feel any pain, gets into a long, protracted fight with Bond and the best he can do is just throw him down (as opposed to literally beating him bloody). If the guy can't feel pain, wouldn't he logically be a WAY more capable hand-to-hand fighter and isn't THIS where you throw in the super-quick action?
The plot also suffers from being stuck inbetween the realm of too long and too short. As a movie, it's the longest Bond of the Pre-Reboot Era. CR and SF are of course quite a bit longer, with CR beating SF by just two minutes. Yet, if one watches CR, especially, it seems shorter than TWINE, doesn't it? Likewise, each time I watched SF, it seemed shorter than TWINE. I've heard many, many times about how long TWINE was, but how many threads about CR or even SF citing running time as the problem? Yet, in spite of these complaints that the film was too long, we also see tons of complaints about characters being underdeveloped (especially Renard) or having odd "blank spots" in their backgrounds (including the single-most-developed character in the film, Elektra King).
However, the 128-minute TWINE was supposedly originally slated to go over or around 160 minutes. That's at least 32 minutes of unused footage. Although I'm NOT going to advocate for a 160-minute-long Bond film, what if they had trimmed the running time to maybe 145 minutes and filled in both Renard's background as well as some of the odd-feeling "blank spots" with the characters.
I agree it's a totally different Bond movie, SILHOUETTE MAN, but I wonder if that's less by design and more by the way they edited and paced it, giving it not the "healthy hybrid" of shoot-'em-up, beat-'em-up, good old-fashioned action and character development seen in CR, but rather the "stunted hybrid" remains of a film meant to focus on character development with intermittent action sequences that were likely grafted on some time later (I say grafted on later rather than added in at the last moment because, as mentioned, nobody really breaks character in any kind of bizarre way) that on more than one occassion just seem out of place.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Point conceded...but in that case, shouldn't he not be fighting at a breakneck pace in the control room minutes earlier? You can make the excuse that his reflexes had gotten worse from the gunfight in the missile silo, since days had passed since that had happened, if not weeks. But this was practically real-time. If the two scenes have a matching pace, I don't mind. Also, more importantly, why does BOND (who is quite alive) seem to slow down from one scene to the other in the control room and the reactor room? That's what I mean about odd pacing.
EDIT: Also, in defense of TWINE as originally shot, much of Renard's "blank spot" background WAS actually given, but wound up on the cutting room floor. Ditto the fleshing out of Elektra King's background (such as her memories of her mother AND, as a vital plot point, even playing Renard for a sucker) and some of Valentin Zukovsky's ulterior motives (plus he SURVIVES, though perhaps that was better to have left on the cutting room floor), and the almost certainly-ethnic Armenian villagers' presence and relevance to the plot is explained far better. Too bad they never pulled the trigger on giving the film a longer running time/were scared of it even running as long as it did...I bet had you even seen 145-150 minutes, it would have worked out way better than what we actually saw. If we imagine these scenes where they were originally supposed to be, the pacing of the film also seems a bit more normal and less "jumping around".
Yes, some commentators noted how TWINE was an attempt at drama that attempted to fit action set pieces rather mechanically into the narrative; as if the producers/director/writers were scared of going too far into Bondian drama and having the film actually be about something, but it seems from the cut scenes that didn't make the film version of the TWINE Bfilm that they hasd somewhat repented of their earlier daring to deliver somethingf different in the form of a James Bond film. We had to wait until the ushering in of the Daniel Craig era in 2006's Casino Royale to get our proper "drama Bond" fix from the Bond producers. There is a continuation of this drama thread from TWINE in evidence there and in CR, QoS and SF there, although very few Craigists given Pierce Brosnan and his four films very much credit.
Where can I see these deleted scenes that elaborate on Elektra and Renard's backgrounds etc? I just watched the deleted scenes on the ultimate edition DVD and they were basically useless.
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
As one of Dalton's biggest fans, I'd agree that QoS is a film which would have suited Dalton's style. Personally I've come to love QoS and think it a better film that Skyfall.
When it comes to TMWTGG, I really dislike most of it, but love Christopher Lee in it and the showdown between him and Moore at the end was one of my earliest (probably first) Bond memories. TMWTGG isn't Moore's worst, but it's up there for me.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
You can't. They were in the original script, but that's about it. Also, I'm fairly sure they only included some deleted scenes that very nearly made the film as opposed to those shot but cut early.
What'd you think of mine, gents?
The Man with the Sparkly Green Skull I imaginatively call it. It glamorises death - just like James Bond himself, you might say.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
I initially thought it was a Halloween party disco ball.
OK, I'll consider a change. Not overly keen on it myself - it was the first blasted avatar I got uploaded!
I'm sure you'll find a good one. There's nothing overtly wrong with the one you have now, actually...except that disco tunes start popping into my head when I see your avatar!
In fact I don't think there are any bad films
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Why not?
" I don't listen to hip hop!"
I used to really dislike AVTAK, but have grown to see its qualities, some films improve with more viewings but I have that in reverse with Skyfall
I even like the mess that is CR67 and Bassinger's ropey performance in NSNA