Did Ian Fleming ever give his views on bull fighting?

Silhouette Man

I'm researching about Raymond Benson's Doubleshot (2000) at the moment and I was wondering whether or not Ian Fleming had ever given his thoughts on the blood sport of bullfighting in Spain. I don't think that he ever did, mind, but I'd still be very iinterested to see if our literary Bond experts here on AJB can come up with anything on this one. I have a feeling that Fleming would have been against it as he was anti-hunting in general, when it came to shooting and fox hunting. It's interesting that a bullfight does appear in the film version of OHMSS, though it does not feature in the original novel version by Fleming.

I'd really love to hear your views on this subject matter. -{

Le Samourai

I don’t recall any specific mention, but I do tend to agree that Fleming would not think too highly of bullfighting. In his writings and interviews, he seemed to have a real fondness of animals and did not appear too keen on killing them merely for sport or entertainment.

Kingley Amis once commented that Bond’s compassion towards animals (i.e. ‘The Hildebrand Rarity’) was an overlooked part of his character.

Asp9mm

It was something that niggled me when reading Doubleshot. Benson was clearly trying to justify the 'sport' and it just didn't ring true to Bond/Fleming, who would have been appalled by it.

Silhouette Man

I agree with both of your replies. It's an interesting criticism that could and will be made on Doubleshot (2000). I'm contemplating a review series on Xperimental James Bond. I'll have to have a look again at that secret source book Thrilling Cities and see if I can turn up anything new from there.

Silhouette Man

This thread has generated some very interesting replies that I've really enjoyed reading. There appears to be more to the topc of Ian Fleming and bull fighting that meets the eye. This is all grist to the mill. I think that bull fighting was used in the spy film Caravan to Vaccares, loosely based on an Alastair Maclean novel and which starred Moonraker's Michael Lonsdale as a duke who killed a charging bull quite graphically at the end of the film. I saw this film on Channel 5 in early 2001. So bull fighting has been used before in spy films. I'd still like to see it used in an alternative way in a future James Bond film, though. You can watch the full film of Caravan to Vaccares here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=funbVdulVlA

The bull fight sequence features near the very end of the film.

P.S. Bull fighting and its code of honour also featured in the Columbo episode 'A Matter of Honor', from the Fifth Season.

superado

I found this via John Griswold's book, that in TB Fleming used the bullfighting term for a way of waving the cape toward a bull called the "Veronica." I haven't checked TB on how the term was used.

Silhouette Man

superado wrote:

I found this via John Griswold's book, that in TB Fleming used the bullfighting term for a way of waving the cape toward a bull called the "Veronica." I haven't checked TB on how the term was used.

Yes, I saw that on the Internet on the Google book myself. It came up when I was researching this. I have a hard copy of this book also. It is a very great resource.It might have referred to the introduction of Domino Vital in Thunderball possibly, but I'd need to check the novel again to make sure. Thanks anyway, superado. Could you also provide us with your thoughts on Ian Fleming, James Bond and bull fighting? I'd really love to hear your views, superado.

superado

Silhouette Man wrote:

superado wrote:

I found this via John Griswold's book, that in TB Fleming used the bullfighting term for a way of waving the cape toward a bull called the "Veronica." I haven't checked TB on how the term was used.

Yes, I saw that on the Internet on the Google book myself. It came up when I was researching this. I have a hard copy of this book also. It is a very great resource.It might have referred to the introduction of Domino Vital in Thunderball possibly, but I'd need to check the novel again to make sure. Thanks anyway, superado. Could you also provide us with your thoughts on Ian Fleming, James Bond and bull fighting? I'd really love to hear your views, superado.

Well, I have to be honest that I never really noticed how much a conservationist Fleming was, though I don't doubt it. I do recall his very vivid depiction of nature as in the opening scenes of FYEO and of course the underwater scenery of LALD, OP, TB and YOLT. In some of those, he did show the survival of the fittest, predatory world of animals, but I would understand if some of us or Fleming himself made a significant distinction about humans inflicting harm to animals, which he might or might not have approved of. I just assumed that Fleming, being a product of his times, would not have minded Spanish bullfighting, since he indulged in a violent girl-fight in FRWL, since inflicted pain as sex play was a fetish of his.

Stop the presses! While composing this post, I picked up Andrew Lycett's Fleming biography and it seems that Fleming did indulge in different kinds of hunting, including shooting a stag, shark hunting and spearing a barracuda that he deemed too unruly. He even made a comment about liking hunting more than fishing. Not quite the conservationist some thought he was!

As for bullfighting, I don't know if Fleming ever visited any country where that's a sport, but it would be neat to read about in a Bond story in my opinion, very Hemingway!

Le Samourai

superado wrote:

Silhouette Man wrote:

superado wrote:

I found this via John Griswold's book, that in TB Fleming used the bullfighting term for a way of waving the cape toward a bull called the "Veronica." I haven't checked TB on how the term was used.

Yes, I saw that on the Internet on the Google book myself. It came up when I was researching this. I have a hard copy of this book also. It is a very great resource.It might have referred to the introduction of Domino Vital in Thunderball possibly, but I'd need to check the novel again to make sure. Thanks anyway, superado. Could you also provide us with your thoughts on Ian Fleming, James Bond and bull fighting? I'd really love to hear your views, superado.

Well, I have to be honest that I never really noticed how much a conservationist Fleming was, though I don't doubt it. I do recall his very vivid depiction of nature as in the opening scenes of FYEO and of course the underwater scenery of LALD, OP, TB and YOLT. In some of those, he did show the survival of the fittest, predatory world of animals, but I would understand if some of us or Fleming himself made a significant distinction about humans inflicting harm to animals, which he might or might not have approved of. I just assumed that Fleming, being a product of his times, would not have minded Spanish bullfighting, since he indulged in a violent girl-fight in FRWL, since inflicted pain as sex play was a fetish of his.

Stop the presses! While composing this post, I picked up Andrew Lycett's Fleming biography and it seems that Fleming did indulge in different kinds of hunting, including shooting a stag, shark hunting and spearing a barracuda that he deemed too unruly. He even made a comment about liking hunting more than fishing. Not quite the conservationist some thought he was!

As for bullfighting, I don't know if Fleming ever visited any country where that's a sport, but it would be neat to read about in a Bond story in my opinion, very Hemingway!

At the risk of going too far off topic, I much prefer Richard Wright's take on bullfighting in his book 'Pagan Spain' over Hemingway. Wright has none of Hemingway's ridiculous macho bluster and bloodlust.

Silhouette Man

Le Samourai wrote:

superado wrote:

Silhouette Man wrote:

Yes, I saw that on the Internet on the Google book myself. It came up when I was researching this. I have a hard copy of this book also. It is a very great resource.It might have referred to the introduction of Domino Vital in Thunderball possibly, but I'd need to check the novel again to make sure. Thanks anyway, superado. Could you also provide us with your thoughts on Ian Fleming, James Bond and bull fighting? I'd really love to hear your views, superado.

Well, I have to be honest that I never really noticed how much a conservationist Fleming was, though I don't doubt it. I do recall his very vivid depiction of nature as in the opening scenes of FYEO and of course the underwater scenery of LALD, OP, TB and YOLT. In some of those, he did show the survival of the fittest, predatory world of animals, but I would understand if some of us or Fleming himself made a significant distinction about humans inflicting harm to animals, which he might or might not have approved of. I just assumed that Fleming, being a product of his times, would not have minded Spanish bullfighting, since he indulged in a violent girl-fight in FRWL, since inflicted pain as sex play was a fetish of his.

Stop the presses! While composing this post, I picked up Andrew Lycett's Fleming biography and it seems that Fleming did indulge in different kinds of hunting, including shooting a stag, shark hunting and spearing a barracuda that he deemed too unruly. He even made a comment about liking hunting more than fishing. Not quite the conservationist some thought he was!

As for bullfighting, I don't know if Fleming ever visited any country where that's a sport, but it would be neat to read about in a Bond story in my opinion, very Hemingway!

At the risk of going too far off topic, I much prefer Richard Wright's take on bullfighting in his book 'Pagan Spain' over Hemingway. Wright has none of Hemingway's ridiculous macho bluster and bloodlust.

I've seen a novel called The Matador that I intend buying from a second hand book shop. I will have to look that book out now too, though, Le Samourai. I already have the Hemingway one somewhere.

P.S. Join me in my revolt against BaB - stick with AJB and MI6 Community like me! Join the revolution, comrade. -{

Le Samourai

Silhouette Man wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:

superado wrote:

Well, I have to be honest that I never really noticed how much a conservationist Fleming was, though I don't doubt it. I do recall his very vivid depiction of nature as in the opening scenes of FYEO and of course the underwater scenery of LALD, OP, TB and YOLT. In some of those, he did show the survival of the fittest, predatory world of animals, but I would understand if some of us or Fleming himself made a significant distinction about humans inflicting harm to animals, which he might or might not have approved of. I just assumed that Fleming, being a product of his times, would not have minded Spanish bullfighting, since he indulged in a violent girl-fight in FRWL, since inflicted pain as sex play was a fetish of his.

Stop the presses! While composing this post, I picked up Andrew Lycett's Fleming biography and it seems that Fleming did indulge in different kinds of hunting, including shooting a stag, shark hunting and spearing a barracuda that he deemed too unruly. He even made a comment about liking hunting more than fishing. Not quite the conservationist some thought he was!

As for bullfighting, I don't know if Fleming ever visited any country where that's a sport, but it would be neat to read about in a Bond story in my opinion, very Hemingway!

At the risk of going too far off topic, I much prefer Richard Wright's take on bullfighting in his book 'Pagan Spain' over Hemingway. Wright has none of Hemingway's ridiculous macho bluster and bloodlust.

I've seen a novel called The Matador that I intend buying from a second hand book shop. I will have to look that book out now too, though, Le Samourai. I already have the Hemingway one somewhere.

P.S. Join me in my revolt against BaB - stick with AJB and MI6 Community lke me! Join the revolution, comrade. -{

I first learned about the Wright book from a great US literary magazine called "Oxford American". Here's a link to the article:
http://www.oxfordamerican.org/articles/2012/aug/27/new-south-journalism-pagan-spain-richard-wright/

And count me in as a fellow traveller.... BaB is nothing to me but a bad memory!

Silhouette Man

Le Samourai wrote:

Silhouette Man wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:

At the risk of going too far off topic, I much prefer Richard Wright's take on bullfighting in his book 'Pagan Spain' over Hemingway. Wright has none of Hemingway's ridiculous macho bluster and bloodlust.

I've seen a novel called The Matador that I intend buying from a second hand book shop. I will have to look that book out now too, though, Le Samourai. I already have the Hemingway one somewhere.

P.S. Join me in my revolt against BaB - stick with AJB and MI6 Community lke me! Join the revolution, comrade. -{

I first learned about the Wright book from a great US literary magazine called "Oxford American". Here's a link to the article:
http://www.oxfordamerican.org/articles/2012/aug/27/new-south-journalism-pagan-spain-richard-wright/

And count me in as a fellow traveller.... BaB is nothing to me but a bad memory!

Yes, thank you for that link - never heard of that magazine before. Sounds very interesting indeed!

On BaB, I've been banned from there until the year 2038, but there was no danger of me ever going back after the soft-touch moderation allows members to attack other members' posts and blogs.

Number24

I think it would fit very well to use bullfighting in a Bond Movie. Bullfighting is very controversial in Spain nowadays, but it could be used in a South American country.

Silhouette Man

Number24 wrote:

I think it would fit very well to use bullfighting in a Bond Movie. Bullfighting is very controversial in Spain nowadays, but it could be used in a South American country.

Yes, and like the potential use of other controversial blood sports such as fox huntiing or pheasant shooting (already used in Moonraker) it would have to be done in an alternative sense as a so-called "human hunt" a la The Most Dangerous Game. It's all very Bondian when you come to think of it!

Silhouette Man

Interesting article:

http://fiskeharrison.wordpress.com/2012/05/23/from-bond-to-bullfighting/