What would Ian Fleming have made of Michael Jackson's life and career?

Silhouette Man

Weird one this, I know. I'm a fan of both and I've been wondering about this lately.

I just can't help wondering what Old Ian would have made of the life of the King of Pop and I thought it was high time I asked this question of the good folks on AJB. I know that Fleming was a great fan of one of Jackson's major influences, Sammy Davis Jnr. (who had a cut cameo in the film DAF). Fleming also was a fan of black music like The Ink Spots, their music even features in some of his Bond novels.

I'm thinking of writing a piece on the links between MJ and JB for my blog as a bit of a left field subject for an article! (and the connections DO exist).

I think Fleming would have admired his talent and understood his complexity, as he was a very complex man himself.

So, I open the floor to your replies...

superado

Gosh, I think it would be a stretch to interpolate what might have been Fleming's preference had he lived into the 1980's and 90's. Looking at the list he provided for Desert Island Discs, very few songs were contemporary at that point in time, 1963. As you mentioned the Inkspots, their song on Fleming's list, "If I Didn't Care," among others were soulful and melodic; arguably, some of Michael Jackson's music might have been that but for the most part, his brand of music was pop, rock, operatic, yes, but overall really larger than life and out there, whereas I perceive Fleming's tastes to be just a bit more tame than that, but not that much more based on his list. His choices seem more eclectic, with a "man of the world" mindset and attitude. Ironically, I think he would have related with the lyrics of Frank Sinatra songs ("That's Life" and "Got the World on a String") but wouldn't particularly personally relate with the "world" of Frank Sinatra, if that makes sense; otherwise, he would have romanticized a lot about Hoboken, right? )

The other songs on Fleming's list that were older, were jazzy and considered edgy at their respective times of release, but it's important to note the passage of time perhaps with Fleming nostalgically recalling his own edgy youth during a specific, frozen window of time because if he wanted to be "edgy" in a contemporary way, wouldn't he have included hits from the Four Seasons, the various surf bands and more Motown? Going also by what else was not in his list, it's interesting to note it didn't include the popular Big Band music of the 40's, or the staples of crooners from the 50's; however, having said that, Fleming might have preferred watching the Lawrence Welk Show (despite having Big Band and Perry Como "crooner" music) for it's overall style and flavor that approximates his Desert Island list, vs. the Ed Sullivan Show, which showcased Elvis, The Beatles and the Jackson 5. He would have also felt at home watching and listening to grand overture music that was fashionable then (West Side Story, Dr. Zhivago, etc.)

Therefore, my personal consensus is, no, I don't think Fleming would have had a higher appreciation for Michael Jackson's music had he lived to experience it, but about MJ's life, that would also be an interesting theory to examine, though I doubt Fleming would have had a special interest for that either based on a few things like his tastes, social exposure, that's too much to elaborate on here.

always shaken

Wow, i never thought i would read Flemming/ Jackson in the same breath,
cant wait to read the connections between the two

Revelator

This has to be the weirdest question ever asked about Ian Fleming. I doubt that he would have made anything of Michael Jackson. He would likely dismiss Jackson as some kind of freak beloved by kids. Let's remember that Fleming didn't even like rock'n'roll. Lycett's biography has a story about him walking into an overseas bar playing Elvis and Pat Boone and ordering the music to be shut off. The order was carried out.

Silhouette Man

Yes, I did say that it was a weird question, but a question nonetheless. It has brought interesting responses and that was my original purpose. There ARE links between Michael Jackson and James Bond, if not specifically Ian Fleming himself, and I would welcome any other responses. As the author of The Bondologist Blog, it should have become apparent by now that I tend to focus in now on the more arcane and forgotten areas of Bondology, and this subject matter is surely one such area. I thank yo for taking the time to read my OP and hope that we can get some further interesting debate going.

Revelator, on the Elvis part from Lycett - very interesting. I didn't know that!

Thunderpussy

I'd say Fleming would of thought Jackson was a little Off the wall.
Which would of been Bad, then Put it down as History.......

Silhouette Man

Thunderpussy wrote:

I'd say Fleming would of thought Jackson was a little Off the wall.
Which would of been Bad, then Put it down as History.......

You have an Invincible ability to always find humour in every topic, which can be Dangerous, Thunderpussy. Fleming and Jackson both liked the Thriller.

Thunderpussy

SM, you always Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' )

Blackleiter

Well Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough!

Thunderpussy wrote:

SM, you always Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' )

Silhouette Man

All joking aside, I'd love to hear more of your views on this subject matter. It is interesting to me.

Smiert-Spionam

Blackleiter wrote:

Well Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough!

Thunderpussy wrote:

SM, you always Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' )

Ah the banter of AJB007. You can't Beat It. )

Napoleon Plural

SM, you make me wish Ian Fleming were still alive today.

So that, if you were to meet him and ask for his autograph, he could reply - like Alec Guinness to the Star Wars obsessed young fan – that he would sign so long as you never read another James Bond book or watch a James Bond film again.

Silhouette Man

Napoleon Plural wrote:

SM, you make me wish Ian Fleming were still alive today.

So that, if you were to meet him and ask for his autograph, he could reply - like Alec Guinness to the Star Wars obsessed young fan – that he would sign so long as you never read another James Bond book or watch a James Bond film again.

I think you know I am a Flemingista, so not sure I see the relevance? Ashes, dear boy, ashes.

Blackleiter

He would think we're all daft for even asking this question!!! 8-)

Silhouette Man

Blackleiter wrote:

He would think we're all daft for even asking this question!!! 8-)

Well, don't blame yourselves. It was my question, after all! )

Napoleon Plural

Well, here's an Elvis link: The Spy Who Loved Me was the last film he saw at the movies.

Spose all that monkey Bubbles stuff is a bit Fleming, albeit more a Faulks novel. Dr No was the name of the villain's monkey in the first draft, right?

Silhouette Man

Napoleon Plural wrote:

Well, here's an Elvis link: The Spy Who Loved Me was the last film he saw at the movies.

Spose all that monkey Bubbles stuff is a bit Fleming, albeit more a Faulks novel. Dr No was the name of the villain's monkey in the first draft, right?

Yes, I knew that. I think Pricilla Presley said that Elvis was a Bond fan in a recent interview and that he had a telephone in his car just like James Bond in the film version of FRWL. Elvis also gerts two mentions in Raymond Benson's second Bond novel The Facts of Death (1998). Jackson is mentioned in Benson's Tomorrow Never Dies novelisation, too.

Michael Jackson requested a film print of Casino Royale to watch while he was in London in 2006 - something about him that not very many people know is that he was a big James Bond fan, hence this thread. There are links there, as I've said above.

Napoleon Plural

Pretty boring, just to watch a print of Casino Royale. I wonder which photo it was, maybe Craig in his Sunspel shirt. You'd think he'd request the actual film to watch, but that's eccentrics for you.

Silhouette Man

Napoleon Plural wrote:

Pretty boring, just to watch a print of Casino Royale. I wonder which photo it was, maybe Craig in his Sunspel shirt. You'd think he'd request the actual film to watch, but that's eccentrics for you.

I've changed my description above to something more suitable - "film print".

Silhouette Man

Michael Jackson Rocks Our World:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qsp7p1RN0Fk

This is my favourite song of his and of all time - it made me an MJ fan way back in October 2001. Pity he never got the chance to do a James Bond theme as when he got older his vocal range was truly amazing. One of the most gifted singers the world has ever seen.

Blackleiter

Silhouette Man wrote:

Michael Jackson Rocks Our World:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qsp7p1RN0Fk

This is my favourite song of his and of all time - it made me an MJ fan way back in October 2001. Pity he never got the chance to do a James Bond theme as when he got older his vocal range was truly amazing. One of the most gifted singers the world has ever seen.

I don't know if he would have been right for a James Bond theme, but Michael Jackson truly was a one-of-a-kind talent. And I had absolutely no idea that he was a Bond fan! Thanks for that tidbit! -{

Thunderpussy

Agreed, Great performer But as with Elvis. I don't
think he'd of been right for a Bond theme, although
I never knew he was a Bond fan either.

superado

Silhouette Man wrote:

...Jackson is mentioned in Benson's Tomorrow Never Dies novelisation, too.

Michael Jackson requested a film print of Casino Royale to watch while he was in London in 2006 - something about him that not very many people know is that he was a big James Bond fan, hence this thread. There are links there, as I've said above.

I'm sure you'll say, "yes, I know, " but it's worth mentioning here about Benson's TND mention of Jackson, it's just that, it's Benson who wrote, not Fleming.

SM, can you summarize the Fleming-Jackson links you mentioned? I'm really curious now and would also like to read from you why you think Fleming would have liked MJ, apart from liking Sammy Davis, Jr. and the Ink Spots, which afterall are not the same thing as MJ and his music/style.

Silhouette Man

Blackleiter wrote:

Silhouette Man wrote:

Michael Jackson Rocks Our World:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qsp7p1RN0Fk

This is my favourite song of his and of all time - it made me an MJ fan way back in October 2001. Pity he never got the chance to do a James Bond theme as when he got older his vocal range was truly amazing. One of the most gifted singers the world has ever seen.

I don't know if he would have been right for a James Bond theme, but Michael Jackson truly was a one-of-a-kind talent. And I had absolutely no idea that he was a Bond fan! Thanks for that tidbit! -{

Interesting and arcane tidbits are what I and The Bondologist Blog are here for, BL.

Silhouette Man

superado wrote:

Silhouette Man wrote:

...Jackson is mentioned in Benson's Tomorrow Never Dies novelisation, too.

Michael Jackson requested a film print of Casino Royale to watch while he was in London in 2006 - something about him that not very many people know is that he was a big James Bond fan, hence this thread. There are links there, as I've said above.

I'm sure you'll say, "yes, I know, " but it's worth mentioning here about Benson's TND mention of Jackson, it's just that, it's Benson who wrote, not Fleming.

SM, can you summarize the Fleming-Jackson links you mentioned? I'm really curious now and would also like to read from you why you think Fleming would have liked MJ, apart from liking Sammy Davis, Jr. and the Ink Spots, which afterall are not the same thing as MJ and his music/style.

Well, maybe I was cheating a little here. Fleming died in 1964, the year Michael Jackson also started performing on stage in The Jackson 5 or its forerunner. So sadly Michael Jackson never existed for Ian Fleming and we'll never know what he would have made of him at all, really. I said there were links between Michael Jackson and James Bond that I felt were very worth documenting. I think Fleming would have admired his qualities as a dancer and possibly as a singer on his early work (up to say Off The Wall) but thereafter, I doubt he'd have liked the odd direction his career went off in after Thriller. As Revelator pointed out, Fleming didn't appear to like the music of Elvis Presley, so I doubt he'd have liked the albeit very different musical style of the later Michael Jackson.

Blackleiter

And you are fulfilling that role superbly, may I say! -{

Silhouette Man wrote:

Blackleiter wrote:

Silhouette Man wrote:

Michael Jackson Rocks Our World:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qsp7p1RN0Fk

This is my favourite song of his and of all time - it made me an MJ fan way back in October 2001. Pity he never got the chance to do a James Bond theme as when he got older his vocal range was truly amazing. One of the most gifted singers the world has ever seen.

I don't know if he would have been right for a James Bond theme, but Michael Jackson truly was a one-of-a-kind talent. And I had absolutely no idea that he was a Bond fan! Thanks for that tidbit! -{

Interesting and arcane tidbits are what I and The Bondologist Blog are here for, BL.

Silhouette Man

Blackleiter wrote:

And you are fulfilling that role superbly, may I say! -{

Silhouette Man wrote:

Blackleiter wrote:

I don't know if he would have been right for a James Bond theme, but Michael Jackson truly was a one-of-a-kind talent. And I had absolutely no idea that he was a Bond fan! Thanks for that tidbit! -{

Interesting and arcane tidbits are what I and The Bondologist Blog are here for, BL.

Why thank you, BL. It's always nice to be appreciated!

Revelator

Revelator wrote:

Let's remember that Fleming didn't even like rock'n'roll. Lycett's biography has a story about him walking into an overseas bar playing Elvis and Pat Boone and ordering the music to be shut off. The order was carried out.

Here's the actual quote, from page 412 of Lycett's biography. The location is Japan:

[Dikko] Hughes, knowing Ian's fondness for local espionage lore, took his guest to visit Ketels, the bar where the German-born communist spy Richard Sorge had extricated secrets from a crowd of raucous expatriate Nazis in the 1940s. Only the once lively and sinister Bierkeller had been transformed into a dreary up-market restaurant where diners ate to the pervasive sounds of Elvis Presley and Pat Boone. When Ian imperiously ordered the noise to be turned off, it was done immediately, and none of the customers seemed to notice.

To be fair, if I entered an eatery that was blaring Pat Boone, I'd also ask for the sound to be shut off.

Liam

Revelator wrote:

Revelator wrote:

Let's remember that Fleming didn't even like rock'n'roll. Lycett's biography has a story about him walking into an overseas bar playing Elvis and Pat Boone and ordering the music to be shut off. The order was carried out.

Here's the actual quote, from page 412 of Lycett's biography. The location is Japan:

[Dikko] Hughes, knowing Ian's fondness for local espionage lore, took his guest to visit Ketels, the bar where the German-born communist spy Richard Sorge had extricated secrets from a crowd of raucous expatriate Nazis in the 1940s. Only the once lively and sinister Bierkeller had been transformed into a dreary up-market restaurant where diners ate to the pervasive sounds of Elvis Presley and Pat Boone. When Ian imperiously ordered the noise to be turned off, it was done immediately, and none of the customers seemed to notice.

To be fair, if I entered an eatery that was blaring Pat Boone, I'd also ask for the sound to be shut off.

Thanks for sharing.

That said I don't think that's a sign of hating R&R so much as hating to be drowned by noise when eating.

There is that strip scene in LALD, most likely underlined by an early version of what would later become known as Rock'n Roll. Bond seemed to enjoy that, though probably more for the strip act than the music. But the music's raw energy also appealed to him IIRC.

Silhouette Man

Liam wrote:

Revelator wrote:

Revelator wrote:

Let's remember that Fleming didn't even like rock'n'roll. Lycett's biography has a story about him walking into an overseas bar playing Elvis and Pat Boone and ordering the music to be shut off. The order was carried out.

Here's the actual quote, from page 412 of Lycett's biography. The location is Japan:

[Dikko] Hughes, knowing Ian's fondness for local espionage lore, took his guest to visit Ketels, the bar where the German-born communist spy Richard Sorge had extricated secrets from a crowd of raucous expatriate Nazis in the 1940s. Only the once lively and sinister Bierkeller had been transformed into a dreary up-market restaurant where diners ate to the pervasive sounds of Elvis Presley and Pat Boone. When Ian imperiously ordered the noise to be turned off, it was done immediately, and none of the customers seemed to notice.

To be fair, if I entered an eatery that was blaring Pat Boone, I'd also ask for the sound to be shut off.

Thanks for sharing.

That said I don't think that's a sign of hating R&R so much as hating to be drowned by noise when eating.

There is that strip scene in LALD, most likely underlined by an early version of what would later become known as Rock'n Roll. Bond seemed to enjoy that, though probably more for the strip act than the music. But the music's raw energy also appealed to him IIRC.

Thank you so much for providing the page numbers from Lycett, Revelator. I wasn't aware of that at all. This has made this admittedly weird thread all the more worthwhile. I'm working on something to do with the links between Elvis Presley and James Bond as well as those with Michael Jackson (they do exist) and so this is all grist to the mill for me. I also remember Fleming referring to Tommy Steele in Thunderball when writing about a youthful driver as part of the new atomic age and he was rather disparaging. I believe that Tommy Steele was the British equivalent of Elvis at that time (1959-1961). I think he's still alive, too. Perhaps from this passage in Thunderball we can take it that he wasn't a great fan of Presley either. As I've said above Elvis Presley is mentioned twice in Raymond Benson's The Facts of Death (1998) and Michael Jackson gets a mention for Crown Prince Chang/General Chang who is a lookalike in the Tomorrow Never Dies novelisation. So post-Fleming at least there are links there to both of these top performers.