Just can't like LTK much

DieAnotherDay

Before many Dalton/Fleming purists start tearing me apart as soon as they see the "risky" topic subject, I am not for one moment saying that LTK is a bad or overrated Bond film. What I am trying to say is that I just can't get myself to really like or truly appreciate the film. I think this stems from the fact that I am not just much of a Dalton fan (although I do like TLD) and I just find the film quite dull and overly serious at times that I just find it hard to thoroughly enjoy at much as all the other bonds. Even though it is classed as a gritty or brutal bond I just fell when watching it that many of the action scenes are still trapped in that Campy 80's bond style and so kind of contrast to other sections of the film which are truly dark and violent. *sigh* ....I don't know I really want to like this film but I can just never be bothered giving it another viewing whenever I am pondering over which Bond to watch.
It just seems that LTK is an acquired taste

DieAnotherDay

I also wanted to ask: are there any films in the series that you guys feel this way about?

Muston

I think you've hit the nail on the head. It is more of a acquired taste. Happily it's a taste I love and I'm in the Dalton was best Bond camp but I don't have a pop at someone who isn't because it's each to their own. I like my Bond gritty and that's why I like Dalton, Lazenby and Craig. Your view on LTK is very much like my view on GF. I loved Connery's first two Bond's but for me GF was just so OTT. I know most on here love GF and they are right to love it because it is fabulous for a spy film, but it wasn't want I wanted out of James Bond. Dalton played Bond like he was in the novel's and that's why for me he was the best and out of Dalton's two films, LTK is my favourite. Each to their own I say. :007)

Barbel

DieAnotherDay wrote:

Before many Dalton/Fleming purists start tearing me apart as soon as they see the "risky" topic subject, I am not for one moment saying that LTK is a bad or overrated Bond film. What I am trying to say is that I just can't get myself to really like or truly appreciate the film. I think this stems from the fact that I am not just much of a Dalton fan (although I do like TLD) and I just find the film quite dull and overly serious at times that I just find it hard to thoroughly enjoy at much as all the other bonds. Even though it is classed as a gritty or brutal bond I just fell when watching it that many of the action scenes are still trapped in that Campy 80's bond style and so kind of contrast to other sections of the film which are truly dark and violent. *sigh* ....I don't know I really want to like this film but I can just never be bothered giving it another viewing whenever I am pondering over which Bond to watch.
It just seems that LTK is an acquired taste

It's a divisive film, to be sure, and very much MGW's baby. With his co-producer (Cubby) over 80 and reasonably enough letting his stepson carry more of the pr0duction duties than before, and his co-writer Richard Maibaum in the same age bracket, and restricted by a writers strike, MGW made most of the choices here and felt 007 had to compete with the then-current style of action movies. There were other problems, too, re locations etc. Some of the traditional James Bond elements were lost or buried, some were upheld, and as has been said many times the film had to contend with very stiff competition.

Wilson's ideas here aren't too different from what have been much more successful in recent years in the Craig films, namely giving Bond a more personal stake in the mission and fitting in with current cinematic trends while incorporating and updating Fleming ideas that hadn't been previously used. In some ways it's easier to look at LTK these days now that we know how the series developed later; it was an experimental film, trying to keep the existing audience while grabbing a newer one.

davidelliott101

While Dalton is my favorite 007 next to Connery, I think there are too many experimental aspects to LTK. Some work, like Bond being discharged from HMSS, but Sanchez was a "villain ripped from the headlines" and Bond needs a villain who is over the top and either bend on world domination (Blofeld, Carver, Drax, et al) or someone who is desperate (Le Chiffre comes to mind).

While Davi did a stellar performance and Del Toro made his big debut in LTK, they are just bland. Some of the editing is sloppy (I think) and the film is kind of like TMWTGG... not really up to par with the rest of the series. Kind of like a TV movie. Especially when Wayne Newton is around.

However, there are some GREAT moments. I WISH Felix could have been fed to the sharks much later in the film... you know, maybe a reel of Bond and Leiter palling around like in the novels, LALD especially (since so much of LALD was put in this movie). Instead of Felix getting married, he and Bond could have been tracking down Sanchez, bar hopping, etc and Felix could have been fed to the sharks more like in LALD. David Hedison was great as Felix. He and Dalton had a great chemistry.

Firemass

Very good film. Great stunts. Perfect cast.

I have some fundamental issues with Licence to Kill, namely Bond going on a killing rampage after his licence was revoked. This was such a huge part of the film, yet they didn't really address any consequences.

Yes, he interfered with Pam's D.E.A negotiations with Heller. Yes, he interfered with Hong Kong narcotics undercover operation. However, both these incidents miss the point completely. Bond is on a rampage and committing murder and not being held accountable for his actions. I love the Deathwish film series, but we don't need Charles Bronson as 007.

Of all the films to feature an extended presence from Q, this would NOT be the one. Bond should be completely on his own if he's going to go down this route. Instead it seemed like business as usual for 007. Lots of Q gadgets and working alongside a CIA babe.

It would have been really clever if Bond managed to get Sanchez without actually killing anyone. I mean he almost pulled it off Yojimbo style creating distrust between the villains. Milton Krest, Truman-Lodge, Heller all were killed by their own boss.

Leiter's phone call at the end really showcases the filmmakers non-committal approach to fully embrace the darker elements of this story. He's all smiles, "Let's go fishing. By the way M called and wants to offer your job back."

Bond is supposed to be her majesty's loyal terrier. Always loyal to the mission and never to his friends. (Ironic that quote comes from Goldeneye as if LTK never existed)

Blackleiter

davidelliott101 wrote:

While Davi did a stellar performance and Del Toro made his big debut in LTK, they are just bland

Interesting. I think those two, especially Davi, are a part of what makes LTK such a terrific Bond film. Not having such an OTT villain, such as Blofeld or Goldfinger, doesn't bother me at all because Sanchez and Dario fit perfectly with the Bond of the Dalton era. To me, not being OTT doesn't equate to being "bland", and these two certainly are not bland IMO.

chrisisall

Blackleiter wrote:

I think those two, especially Davi, are a part of what makes LTK such a terrific Bond film. Not having such an OTT villain, such as Blofeld or Goldfinger, doesn't bother me at all because Sanchez and Dario fit perfectly with the Bond of the Dalton era. To me, not being OTT doesn't equate to being "bland", and these two certainly are not bland IMO.

^^^ What BL said!! -{

DieAnotherDay

I do love the character of Sanchez though, forgot to mention what I really like about the movie. I like the fact that they we trying to take Bond away from the campy hangover left by Roger. I love Davi's performance as said previously, especially the real way he portrays Sanchez as a moderately evil (by bond standards) but extremely loyal villain. I lastly love the last half a hour of the film, the stunts there are tremendous.
And so on....There is so many positives I actually have with this film and yet I always rate it near the bottom of my list. It's just not overall to my taste

Thunderpussy

I for one Love LTK. -{
Dalton is simply fantastic as Bond. But we all
have different tastes.

Napoleon Plural

The whole revenge personal thing was done better in Lethal Weapon2 imo.

Agree that they hedged their bets here, they should have made it more adult, without being sleazy. It still had that low-fat, diet Pepsi feel to it, almost like a TV movie.

Sir James Moloney

I watched it just before Christmas and it was the first time I had seen it in years. It is much better than I remembered it being.

Pros:
[list=*]
[*]Dalton, Robert Davi, Carey Lowell, Anthony Zerbe and Benicio del Toro are all utterly fantastic[/*]
[*]The plot moves along at a good pace and integrates the action very well[/*]
[*]Great use of Fleming material in the story[/*]
[*]The action scenes are brilliant (with one exception - see below): One of John Glen's great strengths... not forgetting the work of Arthur Wooster who is really one of the unsung heroes of the Bond films.[/*]
[*]Michael Kamen creates a good and distinctive score (always a bit nervous when someone other than John Barry or David Arnold are in charge)[/*]
[*]The plot is actually very well constructed and the Yojimbo idea is executed well: the scene where Krest is trying to explain how Bond escaped from the Wavecrest is both funny and frightening ("He flew away..." "...like a leetle bird")[/*]
[*]Franz Sanchez is a phenomenal villain. One of the very best. What's great is that he has such a distinctive personality: he's ruthless, sadistic, greedy but - crucially - values loyalty above all else. I really great character trait which makes him stand out among all the Bond villains really... it's something that makes him dangerous, vulnerable and almost sympathetic.[/*]
[*]Q teams up with Bond! Definitely his finest hour[/*]
[*]Some really good dialogue[/*]
[/list]

Cons:
[list=*]
[*]The Pre-title sequence is pretty boring and quite a let down after the brilliance of TLD's PTS[/*]
[*]My God, the film looks cheap. Not all the way through but in patches. I imagine it was the combination of a squeezed budget and shooting in Mexico but I think this is what gives it its TV-look[/*]
[*]It's also dated considerably (especially compared to TLD) - the film screams late-80s with its bright colours, big hair, baggy suits and characters like Truman-Lodge[/*]
[*]David Hedison is old enough to be Dalton's father. He's okay as Leiter but they introduced a new Leiter in the previous film.[/*]
[*]The ending. I don't know why but John Glen (or maybe it's MGW) seems to have a real problem with these. Pretty much all of his endings are incredibly naff. LTK ends with what seems like every surviving character in the film coming together for a party (in front of a massive winking fish.) It was okay in Return of the Jedi but it really doesn't work here.[/*]
[/list]

Smiert-Spionam

I have voiced my love for LTK a number of times on here and will do so again! I'm baffled as to how anyone can call Sanchez and Dario boring villains. IMO Sanchez stands out as one of the greatest Bond villains, up there with Zorin, Red Grant, Goldfinger etc. Here is a villains that doesn't need to be OTT and Blofeld-esque. It was very refreshing to have a villain who was believable for a change after the 'I want to take over the world' villains of the Moore era. The fact that he is loyal to his henchmen make the character of Sanchez multi-dimensional and I have admitted a couple of times that I have felt sympathy for him when Bond started taking his organisation down from the inside.

Away from the villains, the Bond has a great soundtrack (including the title song and 'If I Asked You To'), the action scenes are top notch and if you prefer the grittier Bond movies then this should be sitting right near the top of your all time Bond films list!

DieAnotherDay

Smiert-Spionam wrote:

I have voiced my love for LTK a number of times on here and will do so again! I'm baffled as to how anyone can call Sanchez and Dario boring villains. IMO Sanchez stands out as one of the greatest Bond villains, up there with Zorin, Red Grant, Goldfinger etc. Here is a villains that doesn't need to be OTT and Blofeld-esque. It was very refreshing to have a villain who was believable for a change after the 'I want to take over the world' villains of the Moore era. The fact that he is loyal to his henchmen make the character of Sanchez multi-dimensional and I have admitted a couple of times that I have felt sympathy for him when Bond started taking his organisation down from the inside.

Away from the villains, the Bond has a great soundtrack (including the title song and 'If I Asked You To'), the action scenes are top notch and if you prefer the grittier Bond movies then this should be sitting right near the top of your all time Bond films list!

I have to disagree personally with one of your points there. I think the soundtrack in this film is extremely bad in places, mainly the gunbarrel sequence...can't stand the music there, I just love it when it is the original bond theme with a slight edge to it eg. TND. I actually rank the score in this film to be the worst of any bond film.
Just my opinion. Feel free to argue

Sir James Moloney

DieAnotherDay wrote:

I have to disagree personally with one of your points there. I think the soundtrack in this film is extremely bad in places, mainly the gunbarrel sequence...can't stand the music there

Wow, really? That's maybe my favourite bit from the whole score!

007bond

It's a flawed film comes of a bit Miami vice-lite to me and is so 80's it hurts. Dalton is excellent as is Davi and Del Toro when he's on screen. But the Films had a made to Tv vibe to it that it just knocks it down a few places imo. The Bond girls are pretty weak Carey Lowell's Pam Bouvier turns from kickass C.I.A agent into a damstrel in distress and Talisa Soto was bland beyond belief. Dalton's Bond Girl's were nice to look at but damn were they dull. I still put it Top ten simply cause Dalton was a great Bond and Davi is a great villian plus Q has a great part. I prefer this to TLD which falls apart during the third act badly.

Dalton was the Perfect Bond but in the Wrong Bond Films.

Blackleiter

007bond wrote:

It's a flawed film comes of a bit Miami vice-lite to me and is so 80's it hurts. Dalton is excellent as is Davi and Del Toro when he's on screen. But the Films had a made to Tv vibe to it that it just knocks it down a few places imo. The Bond girls are pretty weak Carey Lowell's Pam Bouvier turns from kickass C.I.A agent into a damstrel in distress and Talisa Soto was bland beyond belief. Dalton's Bond Girl's were nice to look at but damn were they dull. I still put it Top ten simply cause Dalton was a great Bond and Davi is a great villian plus Q has a great part. I prefer this to TLD which falls apart during the third act badly.

Dalton was the Perfect Bond but in the Wrong Bond Films.

My two cents about Dalton's Bond Girls

- I thought Kara in TLD was bland and forgettable; TLD was still a great Bond film, though
- Pam Bouvier was top-notch to me: smart, tough and attractive; Lupe is one of the most beautiful Bond Girls ever, but unfortunately Talisa Soto is a weak actress; still, she wasn't bad enough to ruin my enjoyment of LTK, which in my opinion is a very strong entry in the series.

davidelliott101

Blackleiter wrote:

davidelliott101 wrote:

While Davi did a stellar performance and Del Toro made his big debut in LTK, they are just bland

Interesting. I think those two, especially Davi, are a part of what makes LTK such a terrific Bond film. Not having such an OTT villain, such as Blofeld or Goldfinger, doesn't bother me at all because Sanchez and Dario fit perfectly with the Bond of the Dalton era. To me, not being OTT doesn't equate to being "bland", and these two certainly are not bland IMO.

If that's the only thing you picked out from my post, then I'm good!!!

I have to obviously re-watch it... it's been years! I'm going back through the films and just watched Dr No last night, so it may be awhile...

hehadlotsofguts

The only bad thing about this film for me is the annoying love triangle between Lupe, Pam and Bond.

It's a Bond film not a soap opera!

Blackleiter

davidelliott101 wrote:

Blackleiter wrote:

davidelliott101 wrote:

While Davi did a stellar performance and Del Toro made his big debut in LTK, they are just bland

Interesting. I think those two, especially Davi, are a part of what makes LTK such a terrific Bond film. Not having such an OTT villain, such as Blofeld or Goldfinger, doesn't bother me at all because Sanchez and Dario fit perfectly with the Bond of the Dalton era. To me, not being OTT doesn't equate to being "bland", and these two certainly are not bland IMO.

If that's the only thing you picked out from my post, then I'm good!!!

I have to obviously re-watch it... it's been years! I'm going back through the films and just watched Dr No last night, so it may be awhile...

Well.....it's the only thing I chose to comment on! I also don't happen to think that the film comes off like a made-for-television movie, although I do agree that the prodcution values are not quite as high as some other Bond films. But where you really lose me is when you compare LTK to TMWTGG. That's really going too far! ) I suggest you follow through with your notion and re-watch LTK - you might be pleasantly surprised at how well it comes off.

davidelliott101

Blackleiter wrote:

davidelliott101 wrote:

Blackleiter wrote:

Interesting. I think those two, especially Davi, are a part of what makes LTK such a terrific Bond film. Not having such an OTT villain, such as Blofeld or Goldfinger, doesn't bother me at all because Sanchez and Dario fit perfectly with the Bond of the Dalton era. To me, not being OTT doesn't equate to being "bland", and these two certainly are not bland IMO.

If that's the only thing you picked out from my post, then I'm good!!!

I have to obviously re-watch it... it's been years! I'm going back through the films and just watched Dr No last night, so it may be awhile...

Well.....it's the only thing I chose to comment on! I also don't happen to think that the film comes off like a made-for-television movie, although I do agree that the prodcution values are not quite as high as some other Bond films. But where you really lose me is when you compare LTK to TMWTGG. That's really going too far! ) I suggest you follow through with your notion and re-watch LTK - you might be pleasantly surprised at how well it comes off.

TMWTGG comes off (to me) as a TV Movie of the Week... LTK is far superior, but as you say, the production values aren't as high as the other Bonds of the 1980's. I love both of TD's Bond films and was kind of trying to objectively analyze.

jamesm123

Please bear in mind this post comes from someone who thinks Die Another Day is the best Bond film.

DEFIANT 74205

jamesm123 wrote:

Please bear in mind this post comes from someone who thinks Die Another Day is the best Bond film.

)

That explains everything!

DieAnotherDay

jamesm123 wrote:

Please bear in mind this post comes from someone who thinks Die Another Day is the best Bond film.

I like to be different. We're not all Dalton fanatics y'know

Sir James Moloney

DieAnotherDay wrote:

We're not all Dalton fanatics y'know

Clearly not. You've listed your top 23 Bond films in your sig and LTK isn't in there at all!

Asp9mm

Sir James Moloney wrote:

DieAnotherDay wrote:

We're not all Dalton fanatics y'know

Clearly not. You've listed your top 23 Bond films in your sig and LTK isn't in there at all!

But FRWL is there twice.

Sir James Moloney

Asp9mm wrote:

Sir James Moloney wrote:

DieAnotherDay wrote:

We're not all Dalton fanatics y'know

Clearly not. You've listed your top 23 Bond films in your sig and LTK isn't in there at all!

But FRWL is there twice.

Can't argue with that!

DieAnotherDay

Asp9mm wrote:

Sir James Moloney wrote:

DieAnotherDay wrote:

We're not all Dalton fanatics y'know

Clearly not. You've listed your top 23 Bond films in your sig and LTK isn't in there at all!

But FRWL is there twice.

Yeah I know, I realised I made a hash of that the other day but just never got round to changing it

Blackleiter

DieAnotherDay wrote:

jamesm123 wrote:

Please bear in mind this post comes from someone who thinks Die Another Day is the best Bond film.

I like to be different. We're not all Dalton fanatics y'know

"Different" I can understand. but DAD the "best"? I mean, I probably like it more than many members here, but Good Lord!!!! )

DieAnotherDay

Blackleiter wrote:

DieAnotherDay wrote:

jamesm123 wrote:

Please bear in mind this post comes from someone who thinks Die Another Day is the best Bond film.

I like to be different. We're not all Dalton fanatics y'know

"Different" I can understand. but DAD the "best"? I mean, I probably like it more than many members here, but Good Lord!!!! )

I do not think it is really the best bond in anyway and can understand how many many people rank it very low on there list but hey, I love it and it's my personal fav. So entertaining!!

Blackleiter

DieAnotherDay wrote:

Blackleiter wrote:

DieAnotherDay wrote:

I like to be different. We're not all Dalton fanatics y'know

"Different" I can understand. but DAD the "best"? I mean, I probably like it more than many members here, but Good Lord!!!! )

I do not think it is really the best bond in anyway and can understand how many many people rank it very low on there list but hey, I love it and it's my personal fav. So entertaining!!

Okay, I get it now. Sort of the way I feel about YOLT - not the best Bond by any means, but I enjoy the hell out of it! -{