The sad demise of a sex slave

chrisisall

There is a rather big & heated discussion going on at another JB site, and I wondered if that discussion might be handled a bit more coolly here at AJB. :007)

It's about Severine, whether it was right of Bond to bed (errr, shower) her in light of her sex worker/virtual slave status, and if her death was essential to the plot. My two contributions sum up my feelings about it- when asked "How could Bond have possibly saved her?" I responded:
"Suddenly, Bond spotted Severing being marched out, blood tinkling down her lip. He'd seen this march before, he knew what this was leading to. An execution. He glanced at his hand. Still shaking a bit, too much for the twisted William Tell nonsense he imagined was coming from where they were setting her up. Words were coming from Silva's mouth, but Bond didn't hear them, he was too deep into calculations, angles that might save them both. As the gun neared him, he didn't wait for it; he snatched it and shot at Silva's chest. The vest Silva wore saved his life, but he fell back hard. Even before the men began firing, Bond was seeking cover. He caught a glance from Severine as she shrunk behind the rock as best she could. He was being surrounded. Before he could formulate a new plan with what pitifully little he had to work with, the sound of helicopter blades ripped through the air..."

When the idea that silly & negative PC reactions to Bond's liaison with her were out of hand, my take was:
"There IS a bit of that going around, eh?
Bottom line, why set her up as a sympathetic character in need of saving just to kill her off in such a sadistic meaningless way when she a) could have been there of her own will so her dying is more of less on her, or b) written to actually make it through the situation so she could live to die another day?
IMO the PC reactions here are an intellectual smokescreen for pure dislike of simplistic audience manipulation. Dark for the sake of dark is beginning to wear thin, as I believe we are seeing on this thread."

Thoughts on this topic?

Asp9mm

Was she a sympathetic character? She set up one guy to be assassinated and was the obvious control in the group. Silva wanted Bond to find him. She was to make sure he did - and believe it was down to his initiative alone. She succeeded. She was a either a great actress or very very naive. I don't believe the latter.

You also have to remember that many of her scenes were cut.

Napoleon Plural

Bond should have sent out a tweet asking the fair-minded male community what he should do...

"Rape her, then tie her up and rape her again!!! Plant a bomb in her flat and tell her it's gonna go off at 9.05pm exactly!!"

Hmm, maybe not.

Just come from that thread, chrisisall! Some of us try to get away from that nonsense over here!

chrisisall

Napoleon Plural wrote:

Just come from that thread, chrisisall! Some of us try to get away from that nonsense over here!

Yeah, well you surely stirred the nonsense with that 'handled' gag. )

Le Samourai

I’m only going to tackle one aspect of this discussion.

I don’t think it is necessarily a given that Bond could have saved Severine, and I don’t think it was obvious that she was going to be killed.

My objection to this particular scene is twofold:

1.I did not like the way her death was filmed. To be honest, when I first saw SF I thought Silva had missed completely (as part of some weird mind game) and that Severine had fainted. This was compounded by…

2. Bond’s reaction, or lack thereof. The “waste of good scotch” line didn’t bother me at first, and then I realized Severine was dead and my opinion changed. I know this is Bond and he’s supposed to be ruthless and all, but I found the “waste of good scotch” quip to just be tacky and offensive. It wouldn’t have been so bad if we saw at least a quick flash of anger on Bond’s face and then he said it.

Don’t get me wrong. I loved SF, but this scene just didn’t work for me.

chrisisall

Le Samourai wrote:

Don’t get me wrong. I loved SF, but this scene just didn’t work for me.

As I see this movie more this scene will irritate me less. Plus: my remote has a skip button!

Sir Miles

chrisisall wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:

Don’t get me wrong. I loved SF, but this scene just didn’t work for me.

As I see this movie more this scene will irritate me less. Plus: my remote has a skip button!

I think that you both are missing what this scene represents....it shows how ruthless Silva is...how single minded he is in his quest for revenge...and just how far Bond has slipped...he didn't think that Silva would kill Severine....that he was scaring her and also proving a point to Bond...Bond misreads this...Silva kills her and Bond is 'shocked' at this...how far he's fallen...how he didn't see this coming...and this provokes his reaction and his steady climb from his malaise...

Le Samourai

Sir Miles wrote:

chrisisall wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:

Don’t get me wrong. I loved SF, but this scene just didn’t work for me.

As I see this movie more this scene will irritate me less. Plus: my remote has a skip button!

I think that you both are missing what this scene represents....it shows how ruthless Silva is...how single minded he is in his quest for revenge...and just how far Bond has slipped...he didn't think that Silva would kill Severine....that he was scaring her and also proving a point to Bond...Bond misreads this...Silva kills her and Bond is 'shocked' at this...how far he's fallen...how he didn't see this coming...and this provokes his reaction and his steady climb from his malaise...

I pretty much agree with your take on this, Sir Miles. I do indeed think that was the point of the scene. My problem was that it was just a bit too underplayed. I'm usually all for subtlety in films (I'm a fan of Jim Jarmusch and Takeshi Kitano, after all), but in this instance, I thought it was too subtle.

Sir Miles

Le Samourai wrote:

Sir Miles wrote:

chrisisall wrote:

As I see this movie more this scene will irritate me less. Plus: my remote has a skip button!

I think that you both are missing what this scene represents....it shows how ruthless Silva is...how single minded he is in his quest for revenge...and just how far Bond has slipped...he didn't think that Silva would kill Severine....that he was scaring her and also proving a point to Bond...Bond misreads this...Silva kills her and Bond is 'shocked' at this...how far he's fallen...how he didn't see this coming...and this provokes his reaction and his steady climb from his malaise...

I pretty much agree with your take on this, Sir Miles. I do indeed think that was the point of the scene. My problem was that it was just a bit too underplayed. I'm usually all for subtlety in films (I'm a fan of Jim Jarmusch and Takeshi Kitano, after all), but in this instance, I thought it was too subtle.

Fair comment...although I prefer 'too subtle' over 'too obvious'....but I guess its subjective -{

chrisisall

Sir Miles wrote:

I think that you both are missing what this scene represents....it shows how ruthless Silva is...how single minded he is in his quest for revenge...and just how far Bond has slipped...he didn't think that Silva would kill Severine....that he was scaring her and also proving a point to Bond...Bond misreads this...Silva kills her and Bond is 'shocked' at this...how far he's fallen...how he didn't see this coming...and this provokes his reaction and his steady climb from his malaise...

This could have been driven home with a small exposition of Bond's anger at himself for not saving her. I see your point Sir Miles, and it helps me accept the scene better in fact, but it still feels like lazy writing/film making to me.
When The Man From UNCLE comes out, perhaps EON wil get on with making FUN Bond movies once more, I'm tired of the dark angsty stuff- Tim's Bond went precisely far enough in that direction for me; no need to try & outdo him.

Blackleiter

Le Samourai wrote:

Sir Miles wrote:

chrisisall wrote:

As I see this movie more this scene will irritate me less. Plus: my remote has a skip button!

I think that you both are missing what this scene represents....it shows how ruthless Silva is...how single minded he is in his quest for revenge...and just how far Bond has slipped...he didn't think that Silva would kill Severine....that he was scaring her and also proving a point to Bond...Bond misreads this...Silva kills her and Bond is 'shocked' at this...how far he's fallen...how he didn't see this coming...and this provokes his reaction and his steady climb from his malaise...

I pretty much agree with your take on this, Sir Miles. I do indeed think that was the point of the scene. My problem was that it was just a bit too underplayed. I'm usually all for subtlety in films (I'm a fan of Jim Jarmusch and Takeshi Kitano, after all), but in this instance, I thought it was too subtle.

I am mostly in agreement with you. I have the same take on the scene as Sir Miles and it didn't bother me once I had a moment to reflect upon it. Plus, the look on Craig's face convinced me that he was indeed shocked by Silva's ruthlessness and that he was struggling a bit to appear unflappable (thus his quip about the scotch). But I do see how one could feel that the underlying emotions of the scene were handled so subtlely that they could be easily missed.

Gala Brand

How do you know she was a "sex slave"? Based on what she said? I don't think you could believe a word she said. She would've said anything to get Bond to kill Silva. She probably wanted to take over the organization, and she would've had Bond killed after Silva was gone. She had the tattoo but that only meant she was a prostitute, not a "sex slave."

The shooting episode was designed to humiliate Bond and punish Severine for her treachery.

MadMax

I believe the fact she was a child prostitute makes her an ex-sex slave. She was forced into it and had no way out.
She was branded like property. She didn't choose to be marked. Slaves were marked with hot irons, one symbol for each owner. So was Severine, but with ink. That's my 2cents in the jar

Higgins

Asp9mm wrote:

Was she a sympathetic character? She set up one guy to be assassinated and was the obvious control in the group. Silva wanted Bond to find him. She was to make sure he did - and believe it was down to his initiative alone. She succeeded. She was a either a great actress or very very naive. I don't believe the latter.

You also have to remember that many of her scenes were cut.

Plus her voice is really strange, so she well deserved being shot by Silva just to shut her up

0073

Le Samourai wrote:

I’m only going to tackle one aspect of this discussion.

I don’t think it is necessarily a given that Bond could have saved Severine, and I don’t think it was obvious that she was going to be killed.

My objection to this particular scene is twofold:
....

2. Bond’s reaction, or lack thereof. The “waste of good scotch” line didn’t bother me at first, and then I realized Severine was dead and my opinion changed. I know this is Bond and he’s supposed to be ruthless and all, but I found the “waste of good scotch” quip to just be tacky and offensive. It wouldn’t have been so bad if we saw at least a quick flash of anger on Bond’s face and then he said it.

Don’t get me wrong. I loved SF, but this scene just didn’t work for me.

I take it you don't drink Scotch?

Before you or anybody else gets offended, let me get to my point: this whole discussion reminds me about the discussion after QoS opened in theaters. Remember the Palio scene? People were offended about the way some innocent by standers (1 girl) were shot and questions were asked "how could Bond shoot his gun in the crowd???" (he didn't). IMHO just a lot of nonsense. Bond's a killer also his character is about the way he does things for the Queen and Country and feels conflicted about it. To me that scene (waste of good scotch) was reminiscent about the way Bond is forced to denounce that poor bastard Cambell, a friend of his in the service, in OHMSS, both in the book as well as in the movie.

adztaylor

Le Samourai wrote:

I’m only going to tackle one aspect of this discussion.

I don’t think it is necessarily a given that Bond could have saved Severine, and I don’t think it was obvious that she was going to be killed.

My objection to this particular scene is twofold:

1.I did not like the way her death was filmed. To be honest, when I first saw SF I thought Silva had missed completely (as part of some weird mind game) and that Severine had fainted. This was compounded by…

2. Bond’s reaction, or lack thereof. The “waste of good scotch” line didn’t bother me at first, and then I realized Severine was dead and my opinion changed. I know this is Bond and he’s supposed to be ruthless and all, but I found the “waste of good scotch” quip to just be tacky and offensive. It wouldn’t have been so bad if we saw at least a quick flash of anger on Bond’s face and then he said it.

Don’t get me wrong. I loved SF, but this scene just didn’t work for me.

I'm guessing you also have an issue with how Solange died in Casino Royale? As she is tortured and killed by Le Chiffre to find out how blabbed.

When M asks him on the beach near her body about remaining emotionally detached from his work, Bond casually replies "no" with no emotion whatsoever. I see both instances as no different and shows just how ruthless Bond is and should be.

chrisisall

adztaylor wrote:

I see both instances as no different and shows just how ruthless Bond is and should be.

Solange wasn't desperate to leave her captivity.... it's a different dynamic.

zaphod

adztaylor wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:

I’m only going to tackle one aspect of this discussion.

I don’t think it is necessarily a given that Bond could have saved Severine, and I don’t think it was obvious that she was going to be killed.

My objection to this particular scene is twofold:

1.I did not like the way her death was filmed. To be honest, when I first saw SF I thought Silva had missed completely (as part of some weird mind game) and that Severine had fainted. This was compounded by…

2. Bond’s reaction, or lack thereof. The “waste of good scotch” line didn’t bother me at first, and then I realized Severine was dead and my opinion changed. I know this is Bond and he’s supposed to be ruthless and all, but I found the “waste of good scotch” quip to just be tacky and offensive. It wouldn’t have been so bad if we saw at least a quick flash of anger on Bond’s face and then he said it.

Don’t get me wrong. I loved SF, but this scene just didn’t work for me.

I'm guessing you also have an issue with how Solange died in Casino Royale? As she is tortured and killed by Le Chiffre to find out how blabbed.

When M asks him on the beach near her body about remaining emotionally detached from his work, Bond casually replies "no" with no emotion whatsoever. I see both instances as no different and shows just how ruthless Bond is and should be.

If he really is that cold and ruthless then I have no interest in him. To my mind Bond can be ruthless, and he can be cold if the subject deserves it in his opinion. He is for me much more complex than that.

0073

How about Connery-Bond? Do you consider the act of raping a lesbian to be just an example of classic male superiority, and not something distasteful? What about the time in LALD when Bond doctors a deck of cards to bed a girl who ends in morta danger because of it? Thats right, even Roggie did it!

Le Samourai

0073 wrote:

How about Connery-Bond? Do you consider the act of raping a lesbian to be just an example of classic male superiority, and not something distasteful? What about the time in LALD when Bond doctors a deck of cards to bed a girl who ends in morta danger because of it? Thats right, even Roggie did it!

Actually, I thought both of these actions were pretty despicable.

chrisisall

Le Samourai wrote:

Actually, I thought both of these actions were pretty despicable.

In the first case, you could tell she liked him... in the second, well, same thing. So it's okay from the objective audience standpoint. :v

alphaagent

the severine scene has never worked for me either, on numerous re-watching sessions. I ranted about it for numerous posts, long lost somewhere on ajb. Have not changed my mind either, thought it was bad writing then and it is still bad writing now, ruins the flow and style of the movie. Just as you thought the smooth, charming Bond was back, he takes a step away from Bond's true character. Really does not help DC any further with his lack of charisma with the ladies.

Asp9mm

Not bad writing. Her story and demise was more padded out and made more sense in the script. Most of it was shot and then edited out. Whether it was time constraint or down to fluidity of screenplay, we won't know until they release the uber extended edition DVD.

chrisisall

Asp9mm wrote:

Not bad writing. Her story and demise was more padded out and made more sense in the script.

If that 'padding' manifests a clearly more manipulative & twisted character in Severine, then yes, that would go a LONG way towards making that scene where she's killed more acceptable to me...

Asp9mm

Well this still from one of the cut scenes intrigues me....

http://i.movie.as/p/600/86930.jpg

She looks in charge and purposeful here, certainly not being controlled by her bodyguards as they would be in front and behind and close if that were the case. They look in a subservient position to her.

chrisisall

Asp9mm wrote:

Well this still from one of the cut scenes intrigues me....

http://i.movie.as/p/600/86930.jpg

She looks in charge and purposeful here, certainly not being controlled by her bodyguards as they would be in front and behind and close if that were the case. They look in a subservient position to her.

Good find and good call. My faith in SF may well be renewed!
(But Logan said there IS no renewal...)
)

Thunderpussy

To fly against the grain ) I really liked the scene and IMHO think it feels very "Fleming " .

chrisisall

Thunderpussy wrote:

To fly against the grain ) I really liked the scene and IMHO think it feels very "Fleming " .

Do you understand the chain of command? That's the chain I beat you with for this flippant comment until you get with the program. :007)

Thunderpussy

I hope I can remember the safety word. This time. )

chrisisall

Thunderpussy wrote:

I hope I can remember the safety word. This time. )

Eta Kooram Nah Smech.

But you're probably Laughing for Chickens....

Kabraxal

chrisisall wrote:

Asp9mm wrote:

Well this still from one of the cut scenes intrigues me....

http://i.movie.as/p/600/86930.jpg

She looks in charge and purposeful here, certainly not being controlled by her bodyguards as they would be in front and behind and close if that were the case. They look in a subservient position to her.

Good find and good call. My faith in SF may well be renewed!
(But Logan said there IS no renewal...)
)

Why would they cut stuff like this? It actually does fix one of the problems with the film and if there are more scenes like that then SF could actually be salvaged just by re=editing to be far more coherent. They need a new cut for this film apparently... wonder if it was ultimately the director's choice or the studio...