What if Dalton had taken over from FYEO onwards?

Brosnan_fan

This thread was inspired by Firemass' hypothetical one about "What if" Moore had only made four films (LALD - MR).

So, imagine Moore had quit after MR, and Dalton took over the role and worked on all the John Glen films (FYEO, OP and AVTAK would have been written, tailored and directed to the TD style of Bond). Then, the 6-year lawsuit debacle occurs as normal, and Dalton decides to exit.

IMO I think I would have enjoyed FYEO and OP, regardless of who played Bond.

Would you have been more satisfied with this hypothetical tenure of Dalton's? What would you have thought of "his Bond" had this occurred?

AirJordanFan93

Interesting. While FYEO and OP are two of the stronger Moore outings it would of been interesting to see Dalton in those roles. I can see his Bond fitting into FYEO they tried to make that one darker after Moonraker and I could see Daltons Bond kicking the car off the cliff more so than Moore doing it. Dalton would of looked a little more believable in Octopussy than Moore while Moore wasn't elderly AVTAK Bond yet he was looking a lot older and I think Dalton would look more convincing and I really don't see Dalton getting into clown makeup and costume either. AVTAK would be improved tenfold without elderly Roger Moore around and I would hope they would of written a better movie for Dalton thanthey did Moore. We know how TLD and LTK go and I wouldn't change them at all maybe just the casting of Felix in TLD.

Smiert-Spionam

Dalton's Bond V Max Zorin. Yes Please!!! -{

Firemass

I'm in favor of the idea simply because Moore was too old by 1980. On the other hand I really like Rog in OP and AVTAK, so it's hard to get my blessing on this one. The fact that Dalton got screwed out of making 2 more films in the 90's makes me wish he had started his career earlier.

*Dalton would have been a much better fit for FYEO due to the amount of athletic feats performed in that film. Plus, the dramatic shift from Moonraker and the PTS designed to introduce a new Bond for a new decade makes this a missed opportunity for Dalton. Was he even being considered?

*I can't imagine any other actor being able to pull of Octopussy. Rog was the perfect man for the job.

*AVTAK is darker and more violent that most fans give credit. Bond's character is more human and down to earth. It feels similar in tone to The Living Daylights. Not sure if Dalton could have pulled off all the different aliases so smoothly like Roger.

MooseWithFleas

In FYEO, I enjoyed the chemistry that Topol and Moore had. Octopussy is vintage Moore and I don't think Maud Adams as Octopussy works as well with Dalton as Bond. AVTAK was just such an odd movie that it also was up Moore's alley.

If they continued to skip FYEO and make that after AVTAK, I would say it would give Dalton a nice trifecta with FYEO, TLD, and LTK.

At the time though, audiences wanted more Moore. The films continued to rake in the box office and reviews at the time were favorable. It's not like they were shoving him down people's throats time and time again, the fans wanted to see him continue. It wasn't til Octopussy that interest started to dwindle and it would continue with AVTAK when time had finally caught up to Roger.

I'm glad it worked out as it did since I am a huge Roger Moore fan. At the same time, I would have liked another Dalton film in 91.

AirJordanFan93

Firemass wrote:

I'm in favor of the idea simply because Moore was too old by 1980. On the other hand I really like Rog in OP and AVTAK, so it's hard to get my blessing on this one. The fact that Dalton got screwed out of making 2 more films in the 90's makes me wish he had started his career earlier.

*Dalton would have been a much better fit for FYEO due to the amount of athletic feats performed in that film. Plus, the dramatic shift from Moonraker and the PTS designed to introduce a new Bond for a new decade makes this a missed opportunity for Dalton. Was he even being considered?

*I can't imagine any other actor being able to pull of Octopussy. Rog was the perfect man for the job.

*AVTAK is darker and more violent that most fans give credit. Bond's character is more human and down to earth. It feels similar in tone to The Living Daylights. Not sure if Dalton could have pulled off all the different aliases so smoothly like Roger.

I never felt he was too old by 1980. I can accept Moore in FYEO and OP but AVTAK is just too hard. Sure he looks older in FYEO but I think he was still sort of believable if you look at him as an Older version of Bond.

Gassy Man

FYEO feels more like it was written for someone like Dalton than for Moore. I saw it in the theaters and recall my friend and his father and I all remarking that it didn't exactly feel like a Bond movie since MR and TSWLM had preceded it. The stripped down, more "realistic" qualities of the movie fit an actor like Dalton, who essentially paved the way for Craig's interpretation two decades later.

Higgins

Besides my well-known beef with Dalton - there are several points which speak against Dalton in FYEO:

1. He would have been too young for the role and the gap prior to TLD let him age out a bit of the difference to Moore.
2. Like others said: It was a bold move after the spectacular TSWLM and MR to continue with a sharp contrasted down-to-earth flemingesque movie and another director.
If at the same time another signature element (the main actor) would have been changed, the entire experiment may have ended in a desaster. So Moore made it easier for the audience to get back on the floor and guaranteed a large bo number by his sheer existence.

I would guess that FYEO with Dalton would have been a medicore movie and financial success if not worse.

Higgins

Gassy Man wrote:

The stripped down, more "realistic" qualities of the movie fit an actor like Dalton, who essentially paved the way for Craig's interpretation two decades later.

That's a bold thesis!

If you are asking some of your non-Bond friends if they knew Tim Dalton, or even show his pic - I am sure that not many even remember that he once played Bond.

After Brosnan took over - Dalton was rapidly forgotten - I am not speaking about a small group of die-hard Dalton supporters here on the board. That's not the real world

So Dalton has very little to nothing to do with Craig's acceptance or performance.

IMO of course.

Sir Miles

Bondtoys wrote:

So Dalton has very little to nothing to do with Craig's acceptance or performance.

IMO of course.

This is where you are completely wrong, IMHO...Dalton did a superb job - just at the wrong time...BUT he planted the seed of returning to a more 'harder edged' Bond in the future...I think Dalton suffered because the switch from Moore's films was too great...that's where Brosnan came in...he was the ideal link from the more 'outlandish' Moore films to the more 'real-world' Craig films...

I know how you feel about Dalton and I think that just clouds your judgement here -{

Higgins

Where you are wrong - you are wrong!

I think that we can agree that Daltons movies so-so performed at the boxoffice (I say they sucked) - so why would Babs and Mick go with the bad seed and make the same mistake again with CR?

Truth is that they wanted to go back to Fleming - they wanted to do what they liked - not back to Dalton.

I say that Dalton has nothing to do with CR's concept and Dannyboys success.

And it stays what I have said: Show 100 of your non-Bond friends a pic of Dalton and see how well-regarded he is. He simply does not exist in the heads of the "casual audiences".

Sir Miles

But CR wasn't a mistake and they cleaned up....this time the timing was right...I did say that Dalton was the right Bond at the wrong time...you should read ALL I post, not just cherry pick
I'm unaware if you've seen interviews with Dalton - especially the press conference they had in Vienna...?...they all hark to going back to basics...to Fleming...if you haven't seen it I recommend you try and find it...it shows the direction the producers wanted to take...with Dalton...back to Fleming...

Showing a picture of Dalton to friends proves nothing...my friends know me...they know I like Bond...they know I like Dalton...so they know who he is...that's a silly way of trying to show what you mean...I understand your point but you could say that of dozens of actors that have been in high-profile films....

AlphaOmegaSin

Daltons Films are masterpieces in my Opinion (Come at me Bond Toys) )

Higgins

Sir Miles wrote:

But CR wasn't a mistake and they cleaned up....this time the timing was right...I did say that Dalton was the right Bond at the wrong time...you should read ALL I post, not just cherry pick
I'm unaware if you've seen interviews with Dalton - especially the press conference they had in Vienna...?...they all hark to going back to basics...to Fleming...if you haven't seen it I recommend you try and find it...it shows the direction the producers wanted to take...with Dalton...back to Fleming...

It may surprise you - but I am forcing myself to read all thru your silly posts

IMO, there is no such thing as right Bond at the wrong time. There are good Bonds and bad Bonds and Moore was visually too old in AVTAK and Dalton would have been to young back then.


So let's take your argument re. the press conference seriously. You say that "they"all hark to going back to basics.

Now who's "they"?
They have obviously not seen the movie as the Vienna press conference was on the first shooting day (I lived in Vienna back then and have seen them all!). So "they" basically harked on a sales pitch.

"The best Bond ever", "Bond-license to kill", "More action - more girls - more Fleming".
And the classic: "This Bondgirl is equal to Bond - for the first time!"
All these are sales blah-blah and came from Cubby, so where is the blah blah for TLD any different?

And the press always fell into the trap and praised whatever they heard and did what Cubby wanted them to do: Give free PR!

Regarding the "going back to basics...to Fleming" rave: I am sure the same has been said at the first press conference re. FYEO - so following your own logic - it was Moore and FYEO "who planted the seed of returning to a more 'harder edged' Bond in the future" or "paved the way for Craig's interpretation two decades later".

That statement would be equally silly than claiming that Dalton has anything positively to do with Craig's Bonds.

You Timboys don't leave a chance out for knitting a context where none exists -{

Sir Miles

'They' were the Broccoli's primarily....followed by Dalton....the writers, etc....and why can't they say they want to go back to basics ? They had the script....I think you've either not understood my point - or you are clearly barking mad

Dalton would have been fine, age wise, for AVTAK...but I'm happy he missed that film as its a bit of a mess...Cubby wanted Dalton for OHMSS remember, so you're 'age' comment is just a red herring...

Yes, there was a definite shift in tone with FYEO, but there had to be really...they'd gone as far as they could with MR....but I get your point...

As I've said...I think your dislike for Dalton clouds your thinking.... -{

Higgins

Like said, I am sure that Broccoli raved about going back to basics - Fleming prior to FYEO as well - so your point is?

For all producers - the upcoming movie is the best to come.

And Broccoli wanting Dalton for OHMSS? He was 25 back then - it would have been a desaster -if that story is true..
As far as I recall, Dalton was not in the last casting rounds.

Sir Miles

My point was clear enough...if you chose to ignore it so you feel your point is more valid...?...that's up to you.

Of course producers feel that way...I think you are confusing yourself here...

Dalton wasn't in any casting rounds at all...Broccoli offered him the role....Dalton turned him down...he said he was too young....but Broccoli wanted him, that is clear.

Smiert-Spionam

I agree that Dalton probably had very little to do with Craig's darker interpretation of Bond. The fact that Dalton and Craig came in and gave a more stripped back, Fleming-esque performance after the previous films sillyness is merely coincidental. However I must say that I think Dalton would have been a better choice of actor for AVTAK than Moore due to the latter's age. AVTAK was only 2 years before TLD so Dalton would have been fine for the role and him and Zorin on top of the Golden Gate Bridge would have been fantastic!

Higgins

Sir Miles wrote:

My point was clear enough...if you chose to ignore it so you feel your point is more valid...?...that's up to you.

Well, FYEO with the darker more flemingesque approach was far earlier than TLD
To go that route was the decision of the producers and not the main actor's
Dalton's movies did not so great that one could assume that this had something to do with the similar approach when CR was outlined.

So all attempts to draw a line between Dalton's Bond performance and Craig's success is don't make any sense.

Feel free to knit your own truth.

Thunderpussy

I think when an actor gets the role of Bond, I'm sure they sit down with the producers
to decide how they want to play the role and if that matches with the direction the
Producers are going. So it's simply a coincidence that both actor and producers agreed
with Dalton and Craig, in both cases wanting to cut down on the humor and reintroduce
touches of Fleming.

Sir Miles

But Moore seemed happy enough to film whatever as long as the paycheck was right...his Bond films veered all over the place...with Dalton it was a singular concious decision to go, and stay, down that route...

Remember that after FYEO Moore did other Bond films with varying degrees of sillyness....so your point could equally be applied to Dr No.... 8-)

As stated...you let your personal thoughts on Dalton cloud your judgement...

I can't knit...so when you've knitted your truth...have a go at mine, please )

Sir Miles

Thunderpussy wrote:

I think when an actor gets the role of Bond, I'm sure they sit down with the producers
to decide how they want to play the role and if that matches with the direction the
Producers are going. So it's simply a coincidence that both actor and producers agreed
with Dalton and Craig, in both cases wanting to cut down on the humor and reintroduce
touches of Fleming.

Or maybe those actors were cast because of the type of actor they are ? Ie. perfect for the tone of the film ?

Mr Mallory

Less Moore could only be a good thing. Craig is a brilliant Bond and
so was Dalton.

Thunderpussy

Sir Miles wrote :

Or maybe those actors were cast because of the type of actor they are ? Ie. perfect for the tone of the film

Agreed ,if they decide on a more serious direction they go looking for a more serious actor. Hence P Brosnan
Films feeling a " hand " of the R Moore era on their shoulder.

Firemass

Bondtoys wrote:

2. Like others said: It was a bold move after the spectacular TSWLM and MR to continue with a sharp contrasted down-to-earth flemingesque movie and another director.
If at the same time another signature element (the main actor) would have been changed, the entire experiment may have ended in a desaster. So Moore made it easier for the audience to get back on the floor and guaranteed a large bo number by his sheer existence.

I would guess that FYEO with Dalton would have been a medicore movie and financial success if not worse.

If Dalton did FYEO, it would have flopped like OHMSS and Roger would have been brought back anyway for Octopussy. (Which would be hailed as a return to form...and rightfully so)

Sir Miles

Firemass wrote:

If Dalton did FYEO, it would have flopped like OHMSS and Roger would have been brought back anyway for Octopussy. (Which would be hailed as a return to form...and rightfully so)

You mean 'flopped' as in being regularly voted No.1 Bond film by Bond fans ?

And why would Roger have been brought back ? That's just nonesense....you need to back your 'thoughts' up with sound reasons as to why....

Gassy Man

Sir Miles wrote:

Bondtoys wrote:

So Dalton has very little to nothing to do with Craig's acceptance or performance.

IMO of course.

This is where you are completely wrong, IMHO...Dalton did a superb job - just at the wrong time...BUT he planted the seed of returning to a more 'harder edged' Bond in the future...I think Dalton suffered because the switch from Moore's films was too great... -{

Absolutely. And while some of us were pining away back then for a harder edged Bond, the 80s weren't exactly the decade to produce it.

MooseWithFleas

Sir Miles wrote:

Firemass wrote:

If Dalton did FYEO, it would have flopped like OHMSS and Roger would have been brought back anyway for Octopussy. (Which would be hailed as a return to form...and rightfully so)

You mean 'flopped' as in being regularly voted No.1 Bond film by Bond fans ?

And why would Roger have been brought back ? That's just nonesense....you need to back your 'thoughts' up with sound reasons as to why....

That is an interesting what if scenario. If Dalton replaced Moore in FYEO and then the movie went on to flop. I would have to think they'd go back to Moore for Octopussy with the whole NSNA vs. Octopussy (if that still occurred in the alternate timeline). After all, they approached Dalton for Octopussy and even screen tested with James Brolin, before deciding to lure Moore back after NSNA was announced.

I think calling OHMSS a flop is a bit of an exaggeration. It was the lowest grossing Bond film since Dr. No (inflation adjusted); however, critics received it well and Lazenby being a one-off Bond was not because of the box office showing. Certainly these days, OHMSS is held in much higher regard as the story has aged incredibly well.

Thunderpussy

I'm sure many movie makers would live a flop like OHMSS. For every dollar spent on it. It
made eight dollars back.

Sir Miles

Thunderpussy wrote:

I'm sure many movie makers would live a flop like OHMSS. For every dollar spent on it. It
made eight dollars back.

And part of the issue of it not making as much money as the rest was down to its running time...I read an article many years ago where it quoted cinema managers as saying as the running time was so long it cost them at least one showing a day, therefore affecting profits...they wanted the film edited down to under two hours...

Thunderpussy

http://www.007james.com/articles/box_office.php

Here is a list of the bixoffice of the Bonds, there are a few surprises.