I think TWINE is the perfect example of how the little things can really get you. If there were some revisions to the dialogue and there were good one-liners instead of bad ones, the film would've been a classic.
It's like in golf how a milimeter is the difference between the hole and the sand.
TWINE still stands as my favourite Brosnan film because we see more to Bond's character than in any other Brosnan film.
The more I think of it, the more I feel like Brosnan was trying to bring his Bond in TWINE a little closer to Dalton's take. And for the most part, I think he succeeded pretty well. -{
I have to agree. He's very good in the movie, specially remarkable is his relationship with Elektra. When he shoots her he's just perfect. TWINE is by far the best Brosnan as Bond.
Brosnan was always darker and more violent than Dalton. Except Brosnan has a greater sense of charisma, likeability and romance, which appealed more to audiences.
Much as I like TWINE, Bond's character in The film is nowhere nearly as well explored as in Skyfall
I concur. Even though I don't dislike TWINE, SF is miles ahead of it. In fact, give me any DC over any PB film. QOS vs TWINE might be a better comparison.
Brosnan was always darker and more violent than Dalton. Except Brosnan has a greater sense of charisma, likeability and romance, which appealed more to audiences.
That's a nice way of saying that his performances were terribly unbalanced, which they were.
Actually, I think Brosnan was a well-balanced Bond.
A charismatic killer is possible, look at the protagonist of your average video-game. Brosnan is a video-gamey Bond. He slaughters people en masse with an attractive face and a smile. And that's generally the directions his movies have been, so I'd say he's pretty consistent with what Eon has been trying to market.
Actually, I think Brosnan was a well-balanced Bond.
A charismatic killer is possible, look at the protagonist of your average video-game. Brosnan is a video-gamey Bond. He slaughters people en masse with an attractive face and a smile. And that's generally the directions his movies have been, so I'd say he's pretty consistent with what Eon has been trying to market.
You might have put into words the reason why I dislike his tenure so much in general. I agree EON wanted to market a Bond video game. That's as far removed from Ian Fleming's Bond as possible.
Yeah, I can totally understand that. Brosnan has killed so many people, that death lost its meaning. When Connery killed the professor in Dr. No, it carried a lot of weight.
The problem with video games is that, technologically-speaking, they're 10-20 years behind movies. Goldeneye 007 was a great game for its time, but games back then didn't have the production values to equate to 1990's movies. I think TND, TWINE and DAD would have made great video games if it were feasible to make them such.
Much as I like TWINE, Bond's character in The film is nowhere nearly as well explored as in Skyfall.
And I disagree as well. In TWINE Bond had ups & downs, betrayal & discovery, revenge & some plain fun.
In SF Bond was basically the shut-down hero. Then he came back. A much simpler emotional palate.
Oh dear. Did he? I thought that got lost in the direction? TWINE remains the clumsiest, overblown load of crud imaginable. The whole thing was strung together from bits cut from the editing room floor
Sorry, but thats the way it seems to me.
1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
Actually, I think Brosnan was a well-balanced Bond.
A charismatic killer is possible, look at the protagonist of your average video-game. Brosnan is a video-gamey Bond. He slaughters people en masse with an attractive face and a smile. And that's generally the directions his movies have been, so I'd say he's pretty consistent with what Eon has been trying to market.
Sorry but I don't buy this "video game Bond".He's the character from the books or not Bond at all.
1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
Sorry if I'm dense, but how are TWINE and SF similar?
They’re similar more in themes than specifics, although there are incidents in common (the MI6 building itself being attacked, forcing M & co to relocate temporarily).
In both films, M is integral to the plot and her questionable actions and arguably poor judgement form the thrust of the story. In one she is betrayed by a daughter figure then taken captive with a view to a kill (pardon the expression), in the other betrayed by a son figure who intends to kill her.
Bond is operating below par in both films, having been injured in the shoulder area during the PTS. His weakened condition is remarked on by Tanner and the staff and he has to gain back his health/position (although naturally still performing death-defying stunts, seducing women, etc).
The villain in both is motivated by personal reasons, directed towards M, and Bond as M’s representative and arguably surrogate son is as much if not more motivated by his personal loyalty to her than to the mission itself... though they do have some friction along the way, their mutual loyalty is re-affirmed by the end of the story.
In both, the main subtext is parent/child relationships- real in the case of Sir Robert and Elektra, symbolic with M/Bond/Elektra and M/Bond/Silva.
As Barbel often says ...... " I'm listening !" )
But a brilliant connection of ideas from both films. -{
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Thunderbird 2East of Cardiff, Wales.Posts: 2,819MI6 Agent
Barbel is right.
For me, TWINE is the better film. M-Mawd's mistakes are understandabke and she regrets them. In addition she is quite resourceful in the field. Bond makes mistakes, but still does well in spite of being injured. I agree Denise Richards casting is a bit off, but she does the best she can with the material she has. The rest of the cast are brilliant. Alao the explosion at the Vauxhaul building looks more spectatular to me, and we get the Q Boat!
Skyfall is a very well made film and has an excellent cast. But it has glaring problems. The film is weakend by an overly convoluted plot, and M-Manf is a marked woman from the start. She looses sympathy for not only refusing to accept blame for her mistakes, but goes on to make them worse. Silva is scary not just for his ruthlessness or cold blooded sadisim, he also to a degree, has a point! Nothing more dangerous than a loyal person who has been betrayed going bad. The film also suffers no brainer plot holes. The use of the computer drive, a murder that is not clarified and the strategy behindb the final quarter if the film make no sense, on top of Bond having a few Suoerman like survival moments, and ultimately, the bad guy actually succeeds.
Given the balance, I prefer TWINE between the two.
This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?
What I like about SF is precisely the dreamlike quality of the final act. I agree that if the head of the CIA was under a terrorist threat, it would make no sense at all that one of the agents on his own takes him to his remote parents' home, with little ammunition, and leaving a trace that the terrorists can find. Reality would be more along the lines of a military bunker, surrounded by an army of bodyguards/military, armed to the teeth.
But SF is more like a nightmare, with everybody facing their demons. SF is the story of M's demise, more than Bond's own story.
Thanks for the explanation, Barbel. Here, have a martini. -{
As for my comparison of the two, TWINE has a much better concept/idea and overall theme, but it's not executed well. Skyfall, if you look deep into it or think about it, is really corny, but the cinematography is mindblowingly good.
Lyrics may matter in music, but whether it ends up in your cd/mp3 collection depends mostly on whether you like the sound or not. Someone may have an amazing personality but if you aren't attracted to them, there's no relationship. And TWINE may be a better movie in a cerebral sense, but if it's just not as plain-fun-to-watch as Skyfall, it's not as essential.
I normally don't mind when Bond films borrow bits and pieces from previous Bond films. For example, I'm fine with Lewis Gilbert making the same film 3 times. However, in the case of Skyfall, I find it disgraceful because Brosnan was fired and the series was re-booted. What a shameful turn of events to then borrow heavily from the ostracized Brosnan era. Not only large parts of TWINE, but the 006 character of Goldeneye as well.
The overwhelming positive fan reaction to Skyfall is just adding further insult. Even faced with these charges of plagiarism here on AJB, Skyfall still gets voted as the superior film.
Sidenote: Meanwhile, AVTAK still gets heavily criticized for being a Goldfinger rip-off. I guess some films are just untouchable, while others become scapegoats. Popular opinion is a funny thing.
My current 10 favorite:
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
AVTAK still gets heavily criticized for being a Goldfinger rip-off.
I actually like the elements they gently lifted from Goldfinger,yet it seems like a totally different film to me, and I never even thought about it until someone here pointed it out. THAT's classy recycling. But in one of life's little ironies the minute I heard Silva's speech all I could think of was I'd already seen this with Trevelyan.
I normally don't mind when Bond films borrow bits and pieces from previous Bond films. For example, I'm fine with Lewis Gilbert making the same film 3 times. However, in the case of Skyfall, I find it disgraceful because Brosnan was fired and the series was re-booted. What a shameful turn of events to then borrow heavily from the ostracized Brosnan era. Not only large parts of TWINE, but the 006 character of Goldeneye as well.
.
To be honest how about those of us who think the series went backwards when Dalton was replaced
Sorry, but its true. :x :x
1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
Sidenote: Meanwhile, AVTAK still gets heavily criticized for being a Goldfinger rip-off. I guess some films are just untouchable, while others become scapegoats. Popular opinion is a funny thing.
I, for one, don't mind at all that AVTAK contains elements similar to GF. My problem with AVTAK is that in my opinion it's boring, shows Roger Moore in his worst shape ever (not his fault - after all he's 57), and features what I consider to be the most annoying Bond Girl (Stacy Sutton).
The notion that some Bond films are "untouchable" and others are "scapegoats" doesn't really seem accurate to me, at least not around here, because the evidence shows that each film has its fervent defenders as well as its relentless attackers. That's the nature of "art" appreciation - it's all subjective.
Comments
It's like in golf how a milimeter is the difference between the hole and the sand.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
I have to agree. He's very good in the movie, specially remarkable is his relationship with Elektra. When he shoots her he's just perfect. TWINE is by far the best Brosnan as Bond.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
I concur. Even though I don't dislike TWINE, SF is miles ahead of it. In fact, give me any DC over any PB film. QOS vs TWINE might be a better comparison.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
That's a nice way of saying that his performances were terribly unbalanced, which they were.
A charismatic killer is possible, look at the protagonist of your average video-game. Brosnan is a video-gamey Bond. He slaughters people en masse with an attractive face and a smile. And that's generally the directions his movies have been, so I'd say he's pretty consistent with what Eon has been trying to market.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
You might have put into words the reason why I dislike his tenure so much in general. I agree EON wanted to market a Bond video game. That's as far removed from Ian Fleming's Bond as possible.
The problem with video games is that, technologically-speaking, they're 10-20 years behind movies. Goldeneye 007 was a great game for its time, but games back then didn't have the production values to equate to 1990's movies. I think TND, TWINE and DAD would have made great video games if it were feasible to make them such.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
Oh dear. Did he? I thought that got lost in the direction? TWINE remains the clumsiest, overblown load of crud imaginable. The whole thing was strung together from bits cut from the editing room floor
Sorry, but thats the way it seems to me.
Sorry but I don't buy this "video game Bond".He's the character from the books or not Bond at all.
They’re similar more in themes than specifics, although there are incidents in common (the MI6 building itself being attacked, forcing M & co to relocate temporarily).
In both films, M is integral to the plot and her questionable actions and arguably poor judgement form the thrust of the story. In one she is betrayed by a daughter figure then taken captive with a view to a kill (pardon the expression), in the other betrayed by a son figure who intends to kill her.
Bond is operating below par in both films, having been injured in the shoulder area during the PTS. His weakened condition is remarked on by Tanner and the staff and he has to gain back his health/position (although naturally still performing death-defying stunts, seducing women, etc).
The villain in both is motivated by personal reasons, directed towards M, and Bond as M’s representative and arguably surrogate son is as much if not more motivated by his personal loyalty to her than to the mission itself... though they do have some friction along the way, their mutual loyalty is re-affirmed by the end of the story.
In both, the main subtext is parent/child relationships- real in the case of Sir Robert and Elektra, symbolic with M/Bond/Elektra and M/Bond/Silva.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
But a brilliant connection of ideas from both films. -{
For me, TWINE is the better film. M-Mawd's mistakes are understandabke and she regrets them. In addition she is quite resourceful in the field. Bond makes mistakes, but still does well in spite of being injured. I agree Denise Richards casting is a bit off, but she does the best she can with the material she has. The rest of the cast are brilliant. Alao the explosion at the Vauxhaul building looks more spectatular to me, and we get the Q Boat!
Skyfall is a very well made film and has an excellent cast. But it has glaring problems. The film is weakend by an overly convoluted plot, and M-Manf is a marked woman from the start. She looses sympathy for not only refusing to accept blame for her mistakes, but goes on to make them worse. Silva is scary not just for his ruthlessness or cold blooded sadisim, he also to a degree, has a point! Nothing more dangerous than a loyal person who has been betrayed going bad. The film also suffers no brainer plot holes. The use of the computer drive, a murder that is not clarified and the strategy behindb the final quarter if the film make no sense, on top of Bond having a few Suoerman like survival moments, and ultimately, the bad guy actually succeeds.
Given the balance, I prefer TWINE between the two.
But SF is more like a nightmare, with everybody facing their demons. SF is the story of M's demise, more than Bond's own story.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
As for my comparison of the two, TWINE has a much better concept/idea and overall theme, but it's not executed well. Skyfall, if you look deep into it or think about it, is really corny, but the cinematography is mindblowingly good.
Lyrics may matter in music, but whether it ends up in your cd/mp3 collection depends mostly on whether you like the sound or not. Someone may have an amazing personality but if you aren't attracted to them, there's no relationship. And TWINE may be a better movie in a cerebral sense, but if it's just not as plain-fun-to-watch as Skyfall, it's not as essential.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
Brozza still rules though!
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
As Skyfall being better than TWINE all I have to say is: LOL not even close.
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
I normally don't mind when Bond films borrow bits and pieces from previous Bond films. For example, I'm fine with Lewis Gilbert making the same film 3 times.
The overwhelming positive fan reaction to Skyfall is just adding further insult. Even faced with these charges of plagiarism here on AJB, Skyfall still gets voted as the superior film.
Sidenote: Meanwhile, AVTAK still gets heavily criticized for being a Goldfinger rip-off. I guess some films are just untouchable, while others become scapegoats. Popular opinion is a funny thing.
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
To be honest how about those of us who think the series went backwards when Dalton was replaced
Sorry, but its true. :x :x
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
And you have to learn that other people have different viewpoints
I, for one, don't mind at all that AVTAK contains elements similar to GF. My problem with AVTAK is that in my opinion it's boring, shows Roger Moore in his worst shape ever (not his fault - after all he's 57), and features what I consider to be the most annoying Bond Girl (Stacy Sutton).
The notion that some Bond films are "untouchable" and others are "scapegoats" doesn't really seem accurate to me, at least not around here, because the evidence shows that each film has its fervent defenders as well as its relentless attackers. That's the nature of "art" appreciation - it's all subjective.
Well I certainly agree with you about that!
No worries, though, because there is still a lot we do agree on. :007)