Moonraker vs. Die Another Day

chrisisall

IMO these are the two most uneven, overly ambitious, poorly produced & plain stupid Bond movies.
Now God knows I love DAF & TMWTGG, so stupid doesn't mean I don't like it, but these two just went too far.

Bottom line: I like DAD better than MR because while it's filled with bad CGI, an over-the-top OTT performance by Mr. Stephens, a direction-less Ms. Berry, and a [LONG SERIES OF EXPLETIVES DELETED] invisible car, the overall intent of the film remains one of adventure no matter how outlandish.
MR, on the other hand, dived into sheer spoof territory, while never once even being as funny as DAF.

Thoughts?

Thunderpussy

I have to agree -{ , for me Moonraker is a collection of old ideas ( a couple of boat chases )
none of which are very exciting. It has a few good momments but I much prefer DAD, although
it's not brilliant either. )
A bit like choosing to be either shot or hung. )

Blackleiter

It probably won't surprise you that I agree - DAD over MR any day!

Dexter Smythe

I have to disagree guys.MR is awesome.Of course I know the space station thing is outlandish but who cares?It's Bond! DAD irritated me much more.Jinx is the most idiotic character in the series(even more than Christmas Jones and that's saying a lot) I think MR had fantastic locations,virtually non-stop action,and the most stunning(if not believable) ending of most any Bond.Plus I would seriously like to have boned Emily Bolton. :x

AlphaOmegaSin

Moonraker will always be one of my favorite Bond Films. Prefer it over DAD any Day of the Year.

Blackleiter

Dexter Smythe wrote:

I have to disagree guys.MR is awesome.Of course I know the space station thing is outlandish but who cares?It's Bond! DAD irritated me much more.Jinx is the most idiotic character in the series(even more than Christmas Jones and that's saying a lot) I think MR had fantastic locations,virtually non-stop action,and the most stunning(if not believable) ending of most any Bond.Plus I would seriously like to have boned Emily Bolton. :x

MR pros:

- great locations, beautifully shot
- nice performance by Michael Lonsdale as Drax
- the beautiful Corrine
- a lovely title song and soundtrack

MR cons:

- ridiculous, meandering plot
- the return of Jaws and the silly addition of his little girlfriend Dolly
- speaking of Jaws, a promising PTS ruined by the arm-flapping and circus music
- poor stunt-doubling
- too many jokes that fall flat
- Roger Moore (that's a big one!)

DAD pros:

- good story, plotting and pacing, at least through the Cuba scenes
- nice, solid performance by Brosnan
- a terrific PTS
- Desmond Llewelyn's last appearance as Q
- the gorgeous Halle Berry (for her appearance, not her acting!)

DAD cons:

- the plot falls apart once Bond gets to the Ice Palace
- bad CGI
- that silly invisible car
- Halle Berry's acting (although "I would seriously like to have boned" her! ) )

So on balance, DAD is more enjoyable to me.

chrisisall

Blackleiter wrote:

- Desmond Llewelyn's last appearance as Q

*TWINE*

But yeah, when I want a rousing OTT senseless actionfest, DAD can do it for me. MR is one I frankly just can't get all the way through any more.

Higgins

I prefer MR over DAD at any day!

The locations are gorgeous, the ladies pretty lots of gadgets and e entire space scenes are technically masterpieces - though not really down- to earth (pun).
I can easily forgive it its flaws - at least we don't get crappy cgis.

Golrush007

I prefer Moonraker. It is partly a sentimental thing, because MR was the first Bond film that I watched. Also, although it is silly and over the top I enjoy the lavish production values and I still maintain that the special effects in space are well done and certainly don't look as dated as one might expect, at least until the lasers start firing!

chrisisall

Bondtoys wrote:

I can easily forgive it its flaws

I remember sitting in the theatre during the Space Marine ( X-( ) assault thinking "Wow, this is as BAD as a Bond film can get."
Then Bond asked Jaws for assistance, and it got worse.
Then Jaws spoke, and it sunk even lower than bottom...

I was so pissed off walking out of the theatre that day.

Blackleiter

chrisisall wrote:

Blackleiter wrote:

- Desmond Llewelyn's last appearance as Q

*TWINE*

But yeah, when I want a rousing OTT senseless actionfest, DAD can do it for me. MR is one I frankly just can't get all the way through any more.

Oops! You're right. DAD is still better, though! )

MooseWithFleas

Moonraker without a doubt.

BL I always enjoy your point of views as the differ in many ways but also have similarities. I just don't understand how you don't enjoy Moonrakers plot but still applaud DAF which at times is a train wreck of a narrative.

Comparing it to DAD, MR has a much greater identity. The direction tells you straight up front that its going to be an over the top, humor filled, kid friendly spectacle and it greatly succeeds in those respects. DAD never seems to know whether it wants to be serious or humorous and in doing so accomplishes neither. DAF has that same fault.

I still am greatly entertained by DAD and DAF but at the end of the day when I have to choose which Bond flick to put on, DAD and DAF are at the bottom.

I completely understand the faults of MR and why people dislike it. Objectively from a movie making standpoint it should rank near the bottom tier. But it knows exactly what it set out to be, which gives it charm and is just plain fun to watch.

Jaws finding Dolly admist the crumbling space station is one of the most heart warming images I have ever seen. It pulls at my emotions more than Tracy or Vesper ever could!

Shady Tree

MR is my favourite of the two films. Despite all the pastiche, MR boasts, amongst other things, moments of more serious drama, stunning production design by Ken Adam, SFX models by Derek Meddings which seemed awesome at the time and a lush, symphonic John Barry score. I remember how my spine tingled back in 1979 at the spectacle of the pre-credits aerial stuntwork and, later in the movie, as the opposing astronaut squadrons join battle... in space!

Speaking of which, I'd recommend Robert Rodriguez's cult film 'Machete Kills', including the trailer for 'Machete Kills Again... In Space', as an amusing romp which spoofs MR as well as a range of other action films/genres (principally grindhouse). Rather like MR, 'Machete Kills' works towards placing an 'established' earth-bound action hero on a launch pad to the heavens in pursuit of a megalomaniac with stellar ambitions. The trailer for 'Machete Kills Again... In Space' rips into MR-style laser battles along with 'Star Wars' itself, of course, and all the other, inferior space-themed nonsense which 'Star Wars' spawned in the late 70s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or6u4Wqig5Y

Dexter Smythe

I believe Llewelyn's last appearance in a film was TWINE.

Blackleiter wrote:

Desmond Llewelyn's last appearance as Q.

Jarvio

MR... no DAD... no MR... no Dad.... Infact, MR.

I always have trouble deciding on these two - they are the two worst for sure IMO. I think MR has the slight edge seeing as it's special effects are more impressive than DAD's special effects 23 years later. But some days I think DAD is the better film. But today, MR wins.

chrisisall

Jarvio wrote:

I think MR has the slight edge seeing as it's special effects are more impressive than DAD's special effects 23 years later.

That's what kills me, it's ALMOST a great movie... when I read Christopher Wood's novelization of his screenplay, I see what it COULD have been.

Awesome miniatures, even better score, Rog in top form, and they had to go and wreck it with that dopey kid-friendly ha-ha, pew-pew crap... X-(

mrgatsby

And The Cream Of The Crap Award Goes To...;)

hehadlotsofguts

I prefer MR to DAD because of the production values. The stunts are real since CGI didn't exist in 1979. I like the fact Drax is based on a real life figure and Lonsdale plays him with convincing menace. If you get past the goofy stuff such as the double taking pigeon, it's one hell of a two hours.

chrisisall

hehadlotsofguts wrote:

If you get past the goofy stuff such as the double taking pigeon, it's one hell of a two hours.

If I had the software, I'd do a fan edit, remove about ten minutes and make it a fantastic movie. -{

Blackleiter

Dexter Smythe wrote:

I believe Llewelyn's last appearance in a film was TWINE.

Blackleiter wrote:

Desmond Llewelyn's last appearance as Q

You are correct, sir, as our good friend chrisisall reminded me. I guess I was lost in a bit of a fog and somehow had it in my mind that Brosnan and Llewelyn went out together.

hehadlotsofguts

I prefer Shirley Bassey's theme song to Madonna's dirge of a song, forgot to mention that.


Not sure about bringing Jaws back and making him a gentle giant. Apparently that was Lewis Gilbert's grandson's idea.

Blackleiter

MooseWithFleas wrote:

BL I always enjoy your point of views as the differ in many ways but also have similarities. I just don't understand how you don't enjoy Moonrakers plot but still applaud DAF which at times is a train wreck of a narrative.

I do see your point, Moose, and admittedly DAD doesn't hold up well plotwise as it goes along. But I found the first half or so to be a very solid, mostly serious Bond adventure, and I suppose I'll take half of that over the plot of MR which seems to just go from one set piece to another. And of course my opinion is seriously skewed by the fact that I think Moore is the weakest of the Bonds. That's hard for me to overcome.

chrisisall

hehadlotsofguts wrote:

I prefer Shirley Bassey's theme song to Madonna's dirge of a song, forgot to mention that.

The music & voice are indeed awesome, but the words are practically meaningless. For that reason I prefer DAD (I'm not afflicted by the allergy to all things Madonna as so many seemingly are). )

Blackleiter

chrisisall wrote:

hehadlotsofguts wrote:

I prefer Shirley Bassey's theme song to Madonna's dirge of a song, forgot to mention that.

The music & voice are indeed awesome, but the words are practically meaningless. For that reason I prefer DAD (I'm not afflicted by the allergy to all things Madonna as so many seemingly are). )

I actually like the Madonna song, too, but not more than Bassey's rendition of Moonraker. Yes, the lyrics are pretty meaningless, but it's still a lovely tune. And it's John Barry!

chrisisall

Blackleiter wrote:

I actually like the Madonna song, too, but not more than Bassey's rendition of Moonraker. Yes, the lyrics are pretty meaningless, but it's still a lovely tune. And it's John Barry!

Okay, you've pushed me, I'll state it outright, DAD is one of my favourite Bond songs, maybe like, # 8.

Blackleiter

chrisisall wrote:

Blackleiter wrote:

I actually like the Madonna song, too, but not more than Bassey's rendition of Moonraker. Yes, the lyrics are pretty meaningless, but it's still a lovely tune. And it's John Barry!

Okay, you've pushed me, I'll state it outright, DAD is one of my favourite Bond songs, maybe like, # 8.

Hey, I like it just fine. But for me, nothing tops the Barry tunes.

Thunderpussy

I like the " night club " version if DAD played at the end, I can get my groove on to it. )
funny that Moonraker also has a "disco " version at the end too.

hehadlotsofguts

I like the disco version of MR as well. Suits the decade i suppose.

chrisisall

Blackleiter wrote:

Hey, I like it just fine. But for me, nothing tops the Barry tunes.

Barry is DA MAN. That said, MR (the song) is my least favourite of all his work.

MooseWithFleas

hehadlotsofguts wrote:

I prefer MR to DAD because of the production values. The stunts are real since CGI didn't exist in 1979. I like the fact Drax is based on a real life figure and Lonsdale plays him with convincing menace. If you get past the goofy stuff such as the double taking pigeon, it's one hell of a two hours.

If you can embrace those moments such as the double taking pigeon and chalk it up to a culture of the times, then it makes the late Connery and Moore era a lot more enjoyable.

I do think Moore's films get unfairly treated by many Bond fans. Moore wears a crocodile costume/boat as a disguise "That's Stupid!". Connery wears a bird on his head as a disguise "That's clever and witty!".

Blackleiter wrote:

MooseWithFleas wrote:

BL I always enjoy your point of views as the differ in many ways but also have similarities. I just don't understand how you don't enjoy Moonrakers plot but still applaud DAF which at times is a train wreck of a narrative.

I do see your point, Moose, and admittedly DAD doesn't hold up well plotwise as it goes along. But I found the first half or so to be a very solid, mostly serious Bond adventure, and I suppose I'll take half of that over the plot of MR which seems to just go from one set piece to another. And of course my opinion is seriously skewed by the fact that I think Moore is the weakest of the Bonds. That's hard for me to overcome.

I actually find both DAD and DAF to have a solid story in the first half before it breaks down. The set piece to set piece at least has some story driven reason behind it, by following Drax's breadcrumbs.

To each is own my friend, we both enjoy pretty much all of the Bond's and that's what brings us together. Moore use to be one of my least favorite Bond's, but with each revisit, I tend to enjoy and be entertained greatly by not only Moore but the films themselves. If we were to rank on pure acting ability, the Bond rankings would probably be.

1.) Dalton
2.) Craig
3.) Connery
4.) Moore
5.) Brosnan
6.) Lazenby

But whats more important to me obviously is what entertains me and brings me the most enjoyment from watching. My criteria for that is not based purely on acting ability. I respect those who do, but Bond is more than that to me. From personal enjoyment it would probably be.

1.) Craig
2.) Moore
3.) Dalton
4.) Connery
5.) Brosnan
6.) Lazenby

Always subject to change though -{

Also, YES to the disco version of Moonraker theme B-)

Blackleiter

MooseWithFleas wrote:

To each is own my friend, we both enjoy pretty much all of the Bond's and that's what brings us together

My sentiments exactly! -{