I suppose that's what I get for trying to add a little culture....
Nevertheless, TP has managed to make a good point. Q is the Wise Old Man figure found in many myths, stories, and franchises. Just as Obi-Wan gives Luke his lightsaber, or Merlin gives Arthur his sword, Q gives James a gadget-packed Aston Martin.
It's all part of the monomyth which I wil be going into later. At great length.
Bloody Hell, I've accidently made a good Point. {[] )
( Please don't end a passage with, " ... Great Length !".
Do you know how Badly I want to do a bad taste joke about ..... ) )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
I suppose that's what I get for trying to add a little culture.... :-(
Nevertheless, TP has managed to make a good point. Q is the Wise Old Man figure found in many myths, stories, and franchises. Just as Obi-Wan gives Luke his lightsaber, or Merlin gives Arthur his sword, Q gives James a gadget-packed Aston Martin.
It's all part of the monomyth which I wil be going into later. At great length. :-)
As soon as I read the word monomyth the recesses of my memory shifted to my high school English class and the archetypal event, the Hero's Journey...
Who's the Bond fan
That's a sex machine to all the chicks?
( Thunders)
You're damn right
Who is the man
That would risk his neck for his brother man?
(Thunders)
Can ya dig it?
Who's the cat that won't cop out
When there's danger all about
(Thunders!)
Right on
You see this cat Thunderpussy is a bad mother
(Shut your month)
But I'm talkin' about Thunderpussy
(Then we can dig it)
He's a complicated man
But no one understands him but his woman
( Thunderpussy !). )
I think it was Michael G Wilson who also said Bond also fills the "Unknown Stranger" Character
In that we know ( Until recently ) very little about him or his past. He arrives at a time of trouble
Helps resolve the situation and Moves on.
This basic premise is the foundation of Hundreds of westerns and Thrillers. A stranger arrives,
Sorts out the trouble, then rides off in the sunset. or In Bond's case, a life raft or such.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
That's it exactly, thank you Samurai! I don't suppose you'd feel like elaborating on that? We know you enjoy writing and do it well.
(Also I'm sitting in a little country bar in the middle of nowhere, between gigs and typing on my phone!)
I could try Barbel. But I definitely am seeing what you're trying to bring up in this thread, because in my own experience, (especially last year) I began to really start and look in depth, studying with careful analysis of short stories and Julius Caesar in my English class. And one of the main points my teacher tried to make us pay attention to in short stories, but in any film series as well, was the monomyth. The archetypal event, and the Hero's Journey and it is was used in popular culture. Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Rocky,are all examples. But they all draw back on more serious examples such as Jesus Christ and religious figures of that ilk. This English class also began a lot of philosophical discussion with existentialism and hedonism and stoics and epicureans and all that jazz...
James Bond is a character that fits the mould of monomyth to a certain extent. In the eyes of many he is the biggest action hero in cinema, but to get the true actualization of the character, you must turn to the novels. In the novels, you could probably see two full rotations of his bigger battles. This being Spectre, and SMERSH. He had the love of his life (twice) die. He is a man who enjoys the vices in life and temptations of women, alcohol, cigarettes. But sometimes, there wasn't a great award for the work he did. While other heroes have some sort of boon at the end of the quest, for Bond that often doesn't happen. Besides the lady friend he most often meets of course, there isn't a major financial gain or life reward for doing the quest. It isn't destiny so to speak that he must do these jobs. The biggest event in the series of the Bond novels has to be the atonement and revenge that Bond gets when killing Blofeld and that truly was the the sort of end of journey for the character. Is this what you were going to discuss Barbel?
Thanks, Samurai, that covers it. I'm glad we're literally on the same page here!
As Samurai says above, James Bond fits the classic hero role in most ways, although with modifications. I'm not going to go into every stage of the Hero's Journey (if anyone wants to, please go ahead) but here's one as an example.
The hero 's parents died before the story began, often in tragic/mysterious circumstances, obliging him (sometimes her) to be raised by aunt/uncle.
The amount of times this particular element occurs in well-known series or franchise characters is staggering. There are slight variations, inevitably, but here's a partial list:
Luke Skywalker
Harry Potter
Frodo Baggins
Superman (perhaps Clark Kent would be more accurate)
Tarzan
The X-Men (partially)
Eragon
etc etc
Central figures in massive money-making multi-media franchises. And Eragon, as well. As we all know, Bond's parents died in a climbing accident and he was raised by his aunt. The main variation is that we don't get to see any of this since we meet him at age ?37 ie a grown man in media res. Most if not all of the other characters mentioned above are introduced to us at a much younger age- usually this is 17 or so, to allow the hero to begin the story as a boy and end it as a man. Luke Skywalker is a good example of this- he's referred to as "boy" in Ep 4 by most people, while by the end of Ep 6 he's completed his rites of passage.
Bond's childhood was only filled in sketchily by Fleming but other writers (John Pearson, Charlie Higson) have been filling in details within that framework. The films ignored his background at first- we learn more about it in SF than in all the previous films put together.
You mentioned Skyfall's subtext a bit there Barbel. There was definitely some not so subtle attempt at homoerotism when Silva unbuttons Bond's shirt and Bond delivering the line..."What makes you think I haven't done this before." That was weird.
But maybe it's just like any villain interrogation scene. Red Grant wants Bond to kiss his foot, (and you mentioned earlier that that film is filled with sexual themes. Some of Grant's dialogue almost gives you the sense that he could rape Bond or something, anyway...) Maybe Bond just doesn't want to give Silva the satisfaction of feeling like he's putting Bond in an uncomfortable situation, or that Silva has the upper hand...
I need to watch all the films again and look for subtext ).
The homosexual scene in SF to me is more a psychological battle:
Silva tries to dominate him by something that makes him uncomfortable because that never happened to him.
Bond strikes back by totally surprising Silva and more than evens the battle.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
On first watching it made me feel a little uncomfortable, but having watched
It many times. I think it's a great scene. Silva is obviously trying to get Bond
Off his guard ( trying to get him to be uncomfortable ) but like a game of chess.
Bond " counters" his move -{
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Higgins is actually right (must tell Sir Miles about that! He'll be surprised), the scene where Silva and Bond first meet is a psychological battle which Bond wins. Naturally.
I wouldn't say that Silva "seducing" Bond is a theme of the film, though, not in the same way that Palpatine's seduction of Anakin in "Star Wars" quite definitely is. SF has quite a bit of subtext, some of which was mentioned here and elsewhere on its release- would anyone like to open on any of its themes?
{[] you may have a slow learning curve but you are starting to understand
(preparing Barbel's application paperwork for the Misty Eyes Fan Club )
Silva may have become aware, that even hitting Bonds balls with a knotted rope did not really bother Bond - so he tried to embarrass Bond with a different approach.
Straight men often suffer an instinct fear of having a homosexual side* - it may have worked.
*I know that ASP9mm and TP embrace theirs )
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
A long article on the subtext in SF- http://politicalfilm.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/deeper-look-at-skyfall/
I was intending to discuss this one in detail, since it's the most recent and does have more layers to it than usual, but this article deals with it quite comprehensively.
An enlightening article about the subtext of Goldfinger, that has completely changed how I view this film now. I used to just think of it as not a serious Bond film, but with this new subtext being reveals to me, it has shone a whole new light on it.
Richard Maibaum's thoughts on writing the screenplay for GF may be of interest. In his view, DN had been basically a mystery (Bond is sent to discover who killed Strangways & Trueblood, and why) while FRWL was a straight suspense story (the audience sees behind the scenes of the enemy's plot, and wants to see how Bond gets out of it). GF, however, he saw as a duel between two supermen, Bond and Goldfinger. They skirmish in small ways at first (cards, golf) then get more serious. This isn't a theme or subtext (see the above link posted by samurai4114 for those) but structure.
Yes, very interesting. Another thing that is really contrasting between FRWL and GF is space. FRWL is very closed and gritty with lots of scenes with many people. You almost get claustrophobic from being in the train, and the closedness highlighted by the passerby when passing Bond and Kerim Bey. Or the scenes in Istanbul with all the other vehicles and people, or the Specter meeting on the boat...
While in Goldfinger, there are lots of shots with wide open landscapes, clear skies. Goldfinger and Bond are the only two golfers on a seemingly large course. The large plot of land for Gold fingers pilots. Fort Know is very large, and looks beautiful. The shots are much more scenic in Goldfinger then in From Russia With Love.
Hadn't noticed that, but now that you mention it I'll be looking more closely. The two outdoor action scenes near the end of FRWL (helicopter chase, boat chase) were deliberately added in (they're not in the novel) to open the film out after the enclosed scenes you mention, and it's here that we get the most "open" shots.
Another fasnicating article but this time about YOLT. The subtext here is insightful, and I think would even be better suited if the films went in the same order as the novels... ie YOLT after OHMSS
Agreed, but John Cox didn't mention that the dying/rebirth theme of YOLT is all there in Fleming's novel, right down to the obituary, and indeed credits Roald Dahl as author. (Also his comment about "Ann in Tokyo"??!!! What??!!)
Comments
Nevertheless, TP has managed to make a good point. Q is the Wise Old Man figure found in many myths, stories, and franchises. Just as Obi-Wan gives Luke his lightsaber, or Merlin gives Arthur his sword, Q gives James a gadget-packed Aston Martin.
It's all part of the monomyth which I wil be going into later. At great length.
( Please don't end a passage with, " ... Great Length !".
Do you know how Badly I want to do a bad taste joke about ..... )
As soon as I read the word monomyth the recesses of my memory shifted to my high school English class and the archetypal event, the Hero's Journey...
ThunderShaft!
(Also I'm sitting in a little country bar in the middle of nowhere, between gigs and typing on my phone!)
In that we know ( Until recently ) very little about him or his past. He arrives at a time of trouble
Helps resolve the situation and Moves on.
This basic premise is the foundation of Hundreds of westerns and Thrillers. A stranger arrives,
Sorts out the trouble, then rides off in the sunset. or In Bond's case, a life raft or such.
I could try Barbel. But I definitely am seeing what you're trying to bring up in this thread, because in my own experience, (especially last year) I began to really start and look in depth, studying with careful analysis of short stories and Julius Caesar in my English class. And one of the main points my teacher tried to make us pay attention to in short stories, but in any film series as well, was the monomyth. The archetypal event, and the Hero's Journey and it is was used in popular culture. Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Rocky,are all examples. But they all draw back on more serious examples such as Jesus Christ and religious figures of that ilk. This English class also began a lot of philosophical discussion with existentialism and hedonism and stoics and epicureans and all that jazz...
James Bond is a character that fits the mould of monomyth to a certain extent. In the eyes of many he is the biggest action hero in cinema, but to get the true actualization of the character, you must turn to the novels. In the novels, you could probably see two full rotations of his bigger battles. This being Spectre, and SMERSH. He had the love of his life (twice) die. He is a man who enjoys the vices in life and temptations of women, alcohol, cigarettes. But sometimes, there wasn't a great award for the work he did. While other heroes have some sort of boon at the end of the quest, for Bond that often doesn't happen. Besides the lady friend he most often meets of course, there isn't a major financial gain or life reward for doing the quest. It isn't destiny so to speak that he must do these jobs. The biggest event in the series of the Bond novels has to be the atonement and revenge that Bond gets when killing Blofeld and that truly was the the sort of end of journey for the character. Is this what you were going to discuss Barbel?
As Samurai says above, James Bond fits the classic hero role in most ways, although with modifications. I'm not going to go into every stage of the Hero's Journey (if anyone wants to, please go ahead) but here's one as an example.
The hero 's parents died before the story began, often in tragic/mysterious circumstances, obliging him (sometimes her) to be raised by aunt/uncle.
The amount of times this particular element occurs in well-known series or franchise characters is staggering. There are slight variations, inevitably, but here's a partial list:
Luke Skywalker
Harry Potter
Frodo Baggins
Superman (perhaps Clark Kent would be more accurate)
Tarzan
The X-Men (partially)
Eragon
etc etc
Central figures in massive money-making multi-media franchises. And Eragon, as well. As we all know, Bond's parents died in a climbing accident and he was raised by his aunt. The main variation is that we don't get to see any of this since we meet him at age ?37 ie a grown man in media res. Most if not all of the other characters mentioned above are introduced to us at a much younger age- usually this is 17 or so, to allow the hero to begin the story as a boy and end it as a man. Luke Skywalker is a good example of this- he's referred to as "boy" in Ep 4 by most people, while by the end of Ep 6 he's completed his rites of passage.
Bond's childhood was only filled in sketchily by Fleming but other writers (John Pearson, Charlie Higson) have been filling in details within that framework. The films ignored his background at first- we learn more about it in SF than in all the previous films put together.
But maybe it's just like any villain interrogation scene. Red Grant wants Bond to kiss his foot, (and you mentioned earlier that that film is filled with sexual themes. Some of Grant's dialogue almost gives you the sense that he could rape Bond or something, anyway...) Maybe Bond just doesn't want to give Silva the satisfaction of feeling like he's putting Bond in an uncomfortable situation, or that Silva has the upper hand...
I need to watch all the films again and look for subtext
Silva tries to dominate him by something that makes him uncomfortable because that never happened to him.
Bond strikes back by totally surprising Silva and more than evens the battle.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
It many times. I think it's a great scene. Silva is obviously trying to get Bond
Off his guard ( trying to get him to be uncomfortable ) but like a game of chess.
Bond " counters" his move -{
I wouldn't say that Silva "seducing" Bond is a theme of the film, though, not in the same way that Palpatine's seduction of Anakin in "Star Wars" quite definitely is. SF has quite a bit of subtext, some of which was mentioned here and elsewhere on its release- would anyone like to open on any of its themes?
{[] you may have a slow learning curve but you are starting to understand
(preparing Barbel's application paperwork for the Misty Eyes Fan Club
Silva may have become aware, that even hitting Bonds balls with a knotted rope did not really bother Bond - so he tried to embarrass Bond with a different approach.
Straight men often suffer an instinct fear of having a homosexual side* - it may have worked.
*I know that ASP9mm and TP embrace theirs
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Well, he's certainly average - but right ? Never
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Hey ! You may have managed it once - but TWICE ? Never !
I was intending to discuss this one in detail, since it's the most recent and does have more layers to it than usual, but this article deals with it quite comprehensively.
http://commanderbond.net/1369/below-the-surface-james-bond-and-the-oedipus-complex.html.
Richard Maibaum's thoughts on writing the screenplay for GF may be of interest. In his view, DN had been basically a mystery (Bond is sent to discover who killed Strangways & Trueblood, and why) while FRWL was a straight suspense story (the audience sees behind the scenes of the enemy's plot, and wants to see how Bond gets out of it). GF, however, he saw as a duel between two supermen, Bond and Goldfinger. They skirmish in small ways at first (cards, golf) then get more serious. This isn't a theme or subtext (see the above link posted by samurai4114 for those) but structure.
While in Goldfinger, there are lots of shots with wide open landscapes, clear skies. Goldfinger and Bond are the only two golfers on a seemingly large course. The large plot of land for Gold fingers pilots. Fort Know is very large, and looks beautiful. The shots are much more scenic in Goldfinger then in From Russia With Love.
http://commanderbond.net/1009/below-the-surface-the-subtext-of-you-only-live-twice.html