If I went to different social gatherings and saw each actor as Bond at each event (without knowing the actor or that it was Bond), I would feel differently about each encounter.
At the events where Connery, Lazenby, Dalton or Craig were present, I would feel these were handsome men among a group of people who all had charm, but at the same time I would feel could turn cold and brutal in an instant and not hesitate to deck someone if crossed.
At the events where Moore or Brosnan were present, I would feel the same way about them initially as the others - except I would never imagine them as a threat in some way. Only charming, warm men who would more likely just try make light of a threat than try and confront it.
So I'm not ditching the purpose of this post entirely, I think most have given a good explanation of why Craig's tenure has succeeded over Dalton's. It was just really good timing.
I don't know if anyone here has seen Timothy Dalton in the Showtime Cable Series "Penny Dreadful" (which has tons of Bond pedigree: Eva Greene, Rory Kinnear, John Logan, Sam Mendes, producer). At 71 Dalton still looks like he can kick butt. The character he plays on the show, an "Allan Quartermain" type in his older years could be Bond's great grandfather. The years have been kind to him.
What I coincidence! I'm watching it and read you guys talking about Penny Dreadful. Great show. All of them are marvellous: Green, Dalton, Kinnear. Sure Dalton is Quatermain-ish, which of course links the show to "League of extraordinary gentlemen" and to Connery.
superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
Dalton just delivers a verile "older guy" character in Penny Dreadful, e.g., he owns it. Can't wait for the DVD set of the 2nd season.
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
Agreed, although Fleming's Bond isn't your ordinary bloke off the street, he was a guy who associated in rarefied circles and Dalton was playing Fleming's Bond.
Exactly- viewers were used to something that wasn't strictly James Bond at all. Dalton never makes Bond 'likeable' or asks the audience to identify with him and therefore I find his Bond more believable as a spy. I don't think he's an unfriendly Bond; he has friendships but he forms friendships that suit his purpose.
If I remember correctly, TLD and in particular, Dalton's performance as Bond were well received by most film critics in the USA. Also, while TLD may not have been one of the top grossing Bond films, it was MGM/UA's highest grossing release that year. IMO, Dalton was a great Bond. For me, TLD and LTK are good Bond films that are propelled above their flaws by the performance of Dalton as Bond. Dalton just came around at the wrong time, EON wasn't quite sure what to do with Bond, both artistically and commercially at the time and in the case of LTK made every marketing mistake they could possibly have made, the most egregious being a summer release date going up against almost every heavy hitter francise of that era. To EON's credit, they were willing to stick with Dalton, although legal troubles basically ended his tenure in the role. We will always wonder whether they would have gotten it right with Dalton with his 3rd film. Ironically, from a physical standpoint, Dalton would have been capable of a long tenure as Bond as he maintained his looks very well over time (just a bit of assistance in the hair department needed down the road) similar to a Cary Grant.
Unlike with Craig, I have no complains about Dalton's performance. He, unfortunately, suffered from some of the worst clothes in the series. In TLD they did the best they could without having time to have a tailor make the suits, but the clothes in LTK are the worst overall of the series. It's the only time Bond has truly done black tie wrong.
I may be wrong, but I seem to recall Dalton saying at the time that be thought Bond should be more low key and wear off the peg suits and clothes. And there are some who look great in suits but slightly awkward in casual clothes (like Roger Moore), and vice versa. Dalton is more the matter, IMO.
A guess the success or failure of a Bond film is based upon the total sum of its parts (some parts obviously outweighing others). IMO, Dalton's wardrobe was never an issue for me. He looked fine in suits, tuxes and sport cloths IMO. Had a couple bad hair moments in LTK and the wedding attire in LTK was very un-Florida and inappropriate for that climate, but as a member of the wedding party, it wouldn't have been Bond's choice anyway. Dalton didn't have the greatest physical build. They tried to compensate in his shirtless scene in LTK by having him scarred (not a bad idea IMO). He wasn't overweight or out of shape looking, just a bit too slight. I recall when seeing LTK in the theater, a couple audience members kind of chuckling when he appeared shirtless. For me , no big deal, but EON should have been aware that audience expectations and standards regarding the body type of action stars had changed and people were becoming accustomed to a more "buff" look. A bit of time in the weight room would have took care of all that. Again, Dalton as Bond today would have definately been directed by EON to build himself up a bit.
A bit of time in the weight room would have took care of all that.
I never thought of Bond as a 'buff' individual, just a man in good shape. Dalton WAS the Bond I read of in Fleming's novels. So were Brosnan, Lazenby & Connery, muscle-wise. Moore was a little soft for me, and Craig (in CR) buffed up a bit too much to make up for his lack of stature, IMO.
A bit of time in the weight room would have took care of all that.
I never thought of Bond as a 'buff' individual, just a man in good shape. Dalton WAS the Bond I read of in Fleming's novels. So were Brosnan, Lazenby & Connery, muscle-wise. Moore was a little soft for me, and Craig (in CR) buffed up a bit too much to make up for his lack of stature, IMO.
Agree pretty much with everything you said. I was just commenting more in the context of the cinematic universe and adjusting to the current standard and what helps sell a film and a portrayal. No doubt, Fleming's Bond, a product of the 50's and 60's would not be all "buffed up". However, in the 80's audiences wanted their action stars to look more imposing ie "buff" and it may have negatively effected Dalton's being taken seriously as Bond/action hero by some audience members (not me). For me, I actually found it refreshing (and more based in reality) that Dalton's Bond was still the heavy smoking, grouchy, intense Bond that Fleming created. Craig on the other hand is truly Bond of another generation with an updated and expanded backstory that is shared with the audience : he still drinks way too much but doesn't smoke, looks buff and fit but is in reality beat down physically and at times mentally. We regards to Roger Moore being "soft" in the earlier films he did I don't think he looked soft so much as "Hollywood Fit"...someone who worked out just enough to look decent shirtless and in clothing not someone who's physical training was for the purpose oif making them a more effective and efficient killer or survive a killer.
If I remember correctly, TLD and in particular, Dalton's performance as Bond were well received by most film critics in the USA. Also, while TLD may not have been one of the top grossing Bond films, it was MGM/UA's highest grossing release that year. IMO, Dalton was a great Bond. For me, TLD and LTK are good Bond films that are propelled above their flaws by the performance of Dalton as Bond. Dalton just came around at the wrong time, EON wasn't quite sure what to do with Bond, both artistically and commercially at the time and in the case of LTK made every marketing mistake they could possibly have made, the most egregious being a summer release date going up against almost every heavy hitter francise of that era. To EON's credit, they were willing to stick with Dalton, although legal troubles basically ended his tenure in the role. We will always wonder whether they would have gotten it right with Dalton with his 3rd film. Ironically, from a physical standpoint, Dalton would have been capable of a long tenure as Bond as he maintained his looks very well over time (just a bit of assistance in the hair department needed down the road) similar to a Cary Grant.
The reviews were good to middling -- Roger Ebert, for instance, gave it two stars out of four, noting that while Dalton was good in the serious scenes, he lacked the ability to play humor. This, too, shows how tastes have changed. To me, Craig's Bond is even more humorless than Dalton's, yet people don't seem bothered, and neither was Ebert in his reviews of Craig's films. But Dalton did not wow most of the critics.
If I remember correctly, TLD and in particular, Dalton's performance as Bond were well received by most film critics in the USA. Also, while TLD may not have been one of the top grossing Bond films, it was MGM/UA's highest grossing release that year. IMO, Dalton was a great Bond. For me, TLD and LTK are good Bond films that are propelled above their flaws by the performance of Dalton as Bond. Dalton just came around at the wrong time, EON wasn't quite sure what to do with Bond, both artistically and commercially at the time and in the case of LTK made every marketing mistake they could possibly have made, the most egregious being a summer release date going up against almost every heavy hitter francise of that era. To EON's credit, they were willing to stick with Dalton, although legal troubles basically ended his tenure in the role. We will always wonder whether they would have gotten it right with Dalton with his 3rd film. Ironically, from a physical standpoint, Dalton would have been capable of a long tenure as Bond as he maintained his looks very well over time (just a bit of assistance in the hair department needed down the road) similar to a Cary Grant.
The reviews were good to middling -- Roger Ebert, for instance, gave it two stars out of four, noting that while Dalton was good in the serious scenes, he lacked the ability to play humor. This, too, shows how tastes have changed. To me, Craig's Bond is even more humorless than Dalton's, yet people don't seem bothered, and neither was Ebert in his reviews of Craig's films. But Dalton did not wow most of the critics.
Even in the more intense action films in the 80s, there was still humour and one-liners. Action films today other than Bond still have those too, so I hope Bond can bring those back.
I don't recall whether it was Ebert or Siskel who, when reviewing TLD, said that "Timothy Dalton looks like he was genetically engineered to be James Bond". Siskel also said about Brosnan, that Brosnan "looked more like James Bond's valet than James Bond".
Ebert wrote that Brosnan was his 2nd favorite Bond, under Connery. And he also wrote that he found Dalton to be too serious for a role that is meant to poke fun at the character.
I think it's very much a case of people's selective memory. We move from Moore's comedy to Dalton's grittiness to Brosnan comedy, so Dalton gets forgotten when he's sandwiched between two approaches that are more traditionally Bond (film Bond that is). So the switch from comic Bond to cynical Bond feels like a new shift whereas really it's not dissimilar from Dalton Bond.
Comments
At the events where Connery, Lazenby, Dalton or Craig were present, I would feel these were handsome men among a group of people who all had charm, but at the same time I would feel could turn cold and brutal in an instant and not hesitate to deck someone if crossed.
At the events where Moore or Brosnan were present, I would feel the same way about them initially as the others - except I would never imagine them as a threat in some way. Only charming, warm men who would more likely just try make light of a threat than try and confront it.
So I'm not ditching the purpose of this post entirely, I think most have given a good explanation of why Craig's tenure has succeeded over Dalton's. It was just really good timing.
Exactly- viewers were used to something that wasn't strictly James Bond at all. Dalton never makes Bond 'likeable' or asks the audience to identify with him and therefore I find his Bond more believable as a spy. I don't think he's an unfriendly Bond; he has friendships but he forms friendships that suit his purpose.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
I agree. That's why I don't feel for Craig's Bond. He just seems to have few human traits. But Craig still has more than Brosnan.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
ummm I cant help but think that Connery, Dalton and Craig actually inhabited the role. He was a costume you put on.
The others...well..
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
" Moore was a little soft for me" ..... Such a disappointment when that happens.
Agree pretty much with everything you said. I was just commenting more in the context of the cinematic universe and adjusting to the current standard and what helps sell a film and a portrayal. No doubt, Fleming's Bond, a product of the 50's and 60's would not be all "buffed up". However, in the 80's audiences wanted their action stars to look more imposing ie "buff" and it may have negatively effected Dalton's being taken seriously as Bond/action hero by some audience members (not me). For me, I actually found it refreshing (and more based in reality) that Dalton's Bond was still the heavy smoking, grouchy, intense Bond that Fleming created. Craig on the other hand is truly Bond of another generation with an updated and expanded backstory that is shared with the audience : he still drinks way too much but doesn't smoke, looks buff and fit but is in reality beat down physically and at times mentally. We regards to Roger Moore being "soft" in the earlier films he did I don't think he looked soft so much as "Hollywood Fit"...someone who worked out just enough to look decent shirtless and in clothing not someone who's physical training was for the purpose oif making them a more effective and efficient killer or survive a killer.
Even in the more intense action films in the 80s, there was still humour and one-liners. Action films today other than Bond still have those too, so I hope Bond can bring those back.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!