I do agree with Galling in a way. The humor of this movie is very forced. Connery was, no doubt, the king of one-liners. And they tried to follow off on that formula. Moore didn't do too bad of a job, but they felt a bit awkward with Dalton. With Brosnan, the delivery of his lines wasn't the problem, but with the writing itself. It's like they forced it in rather than let it naturally happen. With Connery, it genuinely felt like he just thought of those one-liners while he was on the set that moment.
I think this stems from a bigger thing, Die Another Day's identity crisis. Like some of Brosnan's other films, it didn't know what they wanted to be. They just wanted to sell well and be good blockbuster hits. It didn't know what it really wanted to be, so it threw tons of different elements up in the air. Some worked well and others didn't. It was overall entertaining but indecisive. Yes, Octopussy for example was silly but at least it was consistent and it knew what it wanted to be.
The first part of the movie up until Bond leaves Cuba.
Cons
The rest of the movie!
And I must comment separately on Jinx (Halle Berry), as I see that some commentators consider her as an asset, while others view her as one of the film's worst elements:
Pros
Seeing Berry on screen. She is top of the line when it comes to the gorgeousness of Bond Girls.
Cons
Just about every time Berry opens her mouth. She has absolutely some of the worst lines and worst line readings in the entire series.
Pretty much agree on all counts. Except, I would say the first part of the film up to and including the sword fight.
I am not certain Halle Berry is completely at fault for her delivery. The awful dialogue certainly does not help, but I am wondering what sort of contribution (if any) Lee Tamahori made?
Moore Not Less 4371 posts (2002 - 2007) Moore Than (2012 - 2016)
That was clearly the intent, but to me it didn't come across that way. From her extremely obvious cracks about something being "a mouthful', to her very corny and stereotypical retort of "Yo Mama!", Berry just isn't at her best in selling what is, in my opinion, some very poorly-written dialogue. I also disagree about the chemistry between Brosnan and Berry. I just don't see it.
Off topic - A big part of the reason GoldenEye was so big is the N64 video game of the movie. It turned a lot of younger kids (myself included, I was 13 when I got mine for the Christmas of 1998, I'm 29 now) into James Bond fans. it proved that movie based video games didn't always have to be terrible and was one of the first first person shooters (FPS) to be built for a home console and not the PC, also it proved multiplayer on consoles could be better.
As for the topic -
Pros:
Anniversary movie*
Brosnan's final bow as James Bond
Great PTS , a little long, but so was TWINE's
Hovercraft chase was awesome
Bond vs Graves sword fight
Great chase scene on the ice
Cons:
Anniversary movie*
Madonna's song and appearance
John Cleese should have been left as R instead of being Q
CGI could have been better....or not used at all
* = While being an anniversary movie was good and a few throwbacks were nice, it was a tad overdone, I thought.
1, GE 2, CR 3, SF 4, TWINE 5, Spectre 6, TMWTGG 7, DAD 8, LALD 9, AVTAK 10, LTK 11, Octopussy 12, Moonraker 13, TLD 14, GF 15, QOS 16, Tomorrow 17, FYEO 18. TSWLM Not seen much: Dr. No, Russia, Thunderball, Twice, Majesty.
1: Brosnan 2: Craig 3: Moore 4: Dalton 5: Connery and 6: Lazenby
OMG, I forgot that truly horrendous CGI bullet totally ruining Brosnan's last gunbarrel. I know it was the "40th anniversary" and all, but what a silly way to celebrate it.
PROS:
1. Bond gets captured and tortured, the whole title sequence showing his time in prison is great.
2. solid first half until Iceland.
3. good SFX
4. david arnolds overly techno score has some pretty cool tracks, especially the gunbarrel music.
CONS:
1. everything that's been already mentioned millions of times by now.
Thunderbird 2East of Cardiff, Wales.Posts: 2,818MI6 Agent
edited February 2015
This is a tough one for me. In 2002 I was starting a new chapter in my life having been in a bad place for a couple of years. Before it started I had seen Star Trek Insurection and TWINE. I loved both films. As I was enjoying my change of direction, I was really looking forward to seeing Star Trek Nemisis and DAD, so they could gatepost the end of that bad point in my life. I hated both films to the extreme!
DAD has changed in my eyes, but only after someone pointed out its key flaw. First half Connery era, second half Moore era. It doesn't try to do anything truly stand alone outside of the PTS. Jinx should have been a brilliant character, and has all the right physicality and function, but the dialogue is awful. It goes against her as an action heroine. The same is true of the Q scene. It should work, but everything thrown in from 40 years is blatant, and Cleese is given jokes he clearly had no input on. Perhaps the biggest problem is Toby Stephens as Graves. I have a very hard time matching his performance to Moon at the start, he lacks energy and conviction, looking either gaunt or bored at times. Bond is outlaw one moment, key operative the next. The film has so many disjointed jumps it doesn't flow very well, and that problem only eases with multiple viewings. You know when the pace will change, so you are ready for it.
It's clear director Tamori was desperate to do something new and different and it simply doesn't work. The CGI feels excessive and fake (ruining the stunts are real tradition in the process of the earlier and later films), and the levels of hype in promoting the film were far too much.
However, there are individual pieces that are clever. The Vanquish is one of the best Bond cars, and the use of the ice palace is big scale and opulent, both for the party scenes and the car chase. David Arnold's top notch music. The locations used as nicely done and the miniatures work harks back to the glory days of the Moore era. The Icarus orbital weapon is true to YOLT, DAF and MKR in technological scope. Using North Korea as the framework of the baddie has Smersh / Spectre touches to it and Mr Brosnan does have a couple of good scenes with Dame Judi's M, as well as the chap in Cuba, and Mr Chang in Hong Kong. Rick Yune knows he is joining the Rosa Klebb, Oddjob and Jaws brigade, and brings a workable level of physical and even psycho menace to Zao. Finally, Rosamund Pike does a good job of making Frost unlikeable before she is revealed as the turncoat. (Incidentally, Her comments on the audio commentary are charming, insightful and often damned funny too!)
All of these things I discovered and appreciated through the DVD and my telly, not the cinema screen. Which for a Bond film is simply out of place. DAD will always be an experiment that went wrong a bit like QoS did six years later. But like the later film it does have redeeming qualities that I find genuinely enjoyable.
Star Trek Nemisis however, will never be so fortunate.
This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?
I do agree with Galling in a way. The humor of this movie is very forced. Connery was, no doubt, the king of one-liners. And they tried to follow off on that formula. Moore didn't do too bad of a job, but they felt a bit awkward with Dalton. With Brosnan, the delivery of his lines wasn't the problem, but with the writing itself. It's like they forced it in rather than let it naturally happen. With Connery, it genuinely felt like he just thought of those one-liners while he was on the set that moment.
I think this stems from a bigger thing, Die Another Day's identity crisis. Like some of Brosnan's other films, it didn't know what they wanted to be. They just wanted to sell well and be good blockbuster hits. It didn't know what it really wanted to be, so it threw tons of different elements up in the air. Some worked well and others didn't. It was overall entertaining but indecisive. Yes, Octopussy for example was silly but at least it was consistent and it knew what it wanted to be.
That's rather hilarious.
Not DAD, or MR or AVTAK or TMWTGG, but a competently produced, written & directed adventure with a great Bond girl, and a good climax.
So what? You hate Chinese girls? Machine guns? Stealth boats? Nuts who have influence on world events? A Bond that falls for his chick & vows not to leave her behind?
I get that it might not be your favourite or that it might be near the bottom of your list, but to characterize it as "all time low" indicates a personal prejudice that you seem unable to acknowledge to both me and yourself. 8-)
How about I say YOLT was the all time low? Or maybe FYEO?
I mean, as long as we are striving to make no sense.... )
To be honest I think a warts 'an all book/documentary should be done on DAD
Rather like Charles Helfensteins review of OHMSS. What went wrong? Did the director have too much power? Did the studios back the director? Did the studios not have any faith with Babs? Did they go for bums-on-seats? Did the director have no inclinations of what he was doing?
I know Mickey G cut himself away from the film (let alone Pierce) but how did Babs feel? How did most of the cast feel about it? How did Halle, Rosamunde and Toby feel about it? How it did he feel hamming it up so any sense of menace is destroyed
I really think there is a really juicy documentary to be made of this?
1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
That's rather hilarious.
Not DAD, or MR or AVTAK or TMWTGG, but a competently produced, written & directed adventure with a great Bond girl, and a good climax.
So what? You hate Chinese girls? Machine guns? Stealth boats? Nuts who have influence on world events? A Bond that falls for his chick & vows not to leave her behind?
I get that it might not be your favourite or that it might be near the bottom of your list, but to characterize it as "all time low" indicates a personal prejudice that you seem unable to acknowledge to both me and yourself. 8-)
How about I say YOLT was the all time low? Or maybe FYEO?
I mean, as long as we are striving to make no sense.... )
I've gone through my reasons for considering TND the all time low of the franchise. Others feel that way in this forum, so I'm not the only one. I don't foresee that will change in the future.
In any case, with your "chinese girls" and "personal prejudice" comments you are clearly crossing a red line, so get a grip, chrisisall.
Hehadlotsofguts wrote :
" I liked him as well TP. An arrogant, power hungry jerk. Toby Stephens played him perfectly"
Yes, he was an arrogant tosser, I wanted Bond to kick the sh*t out of him -{
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
The first part of the movie up until Bond leaves Cuba.
Cons
The rest of the movie!
And I must comment separately on Jinx (Halle Berry), as I see that some commentators consider her as an asset, while others view her as one of the film's worst elements:
Pros
Seeing Berry on screen. She is top of the line when it comes to the gorgeousness of Bond Girls.
Cons
Just about every time Berry opens her mouth. She has absolutely some of the worst lines and worst line readings in the entire series.
Hehadlotsofguts wrote :
" I liked him as well TP. An arrogant, power hungry jerk. Toby Stephens played him perfectly"
Yes, he was an arrogant tosser, I wanted Bond to kick the sh*t out of him -{
I'd settle for tossing the dude through a burning jet engine. )
I've gone through my reasons for considering TND the all time low of the franchise. Others feel that way in this forum, so I'm not the only one.
Really? Can you name one? I mean, someone who feels TND is 'the all time low'? I can't recall seeing it dead last on anyone's list but yours... I could be wrong...
with your "chinese girls" and "personal prejudice" comments you are clearly crossing a red line
A 'red' line? Is that Commie reference? Are you saying I should move to Russia? X-(
) Okay, seriously, by 'personal prejudice' I mean something in your past that affects your judgement of the film- like for ME, I was severely traumatized by Bambi as a child, and consequently when a beloved or main character dies in a movie, my first reaction is 'this movie sucks'. When Matrix Revolutions came out I flat out stated that it was THE worst movie ever made. )
Now I can say it's a well made flick that I just can't enjoy.
For years I couldn't watch YOLT because of Aki's death!
That's what I mean.
Thegreatgalling wrote :
" I'd settle for tossing the dude through a burning jet engine "
Yes either way he was toast ! although to be a bit of a dick about it https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5FsrNEeqd6Q
You can go through a jet engine, with only minor injuries.
But I wouldn't want to try. )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Must be something in the alignment of the stars ?
Sir Miles and Number24, arguing, Virgil37 and Chrisisall arguing
Last night it was Blackleiter and myself !
This really is getting more and more like an old folks home ! )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Must be something in the alignment of the stars ?
Sir Miles and Number24, arguing, Virgil37 and Chrisisall arguing
Last night it was Blackleiter and myself !
This really is getting more and more like an old folks home ! )
Thegreatgalling wrote :
" I'd settle for tossing the dude through a burning jet engine "
Yes either way he was toast ! although to be a bit of a dick about it https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5FsrNEeqd6Q
You can go through a jet engine, with only minor injuries.
But I wouldn't want to try. )
Sure on an A6 intruder with a lengthy 8-9 foot air intake. That guy's life was spared because on that engine, the blades were deep within, and his arm prevented him from being sucked through the blades. When his helmet was sucked off and hit the blades, it killed the engine.
Comments
I think this stems from a bigger thing, Die Another Day's identity crisis. Like some of Brosnan's other films, it didn't know what they wanted to be. They just wanted to sell well and be good blockbuster hits. It didn't know what it really wanted to be, so it threw tons of different elements up in the air. Some worked well and others didn't. It was overall entertaining but indecisive. Yes, Octopussy for example was silly but at least it was consistent and it knew what it wanted to be.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
Pretty much agree on all counts. Except, I would say the first part of the film up to and including the sword fight.
I am not certain Halle Berry is completely at fault for her delivery. The awful dialogue certainly does not help, but I am wondering what sort of contribution (if any) Lee Tamahori made?
That was clearly the intent, but to me it didn't come across that way. From her extremely obvious cracks about something being "a mouthful', to her very corny and stereotypical retort of "Yo Mama!", Berry just isn't at her best in selling what is, in my opinion, some very poorly-written dialogue. I also disagree about the chemistry between Brosnan and Berry. I just don't see it.
As for the topic -
Pros:
Anniversary movie*
Brosnan's final bow as James Bond
Great PTS , a little long, but so was TWINE's
Hovercraft chase was awesome
Bond vs Graves sword fight
Great chase scene on the ice
Cons:
Anniversary movie*
Madonna's song and appearance
John Cleese should have been left as R instead of being Q
CGI could have been better....or not used at all
* = While being an anniversary movie was good and a few throwbacks were nice, it was a tad overdone, I thought.
1: Brosnan 2: Craig 3: Moore 4: Dalton 5: Connery and 6: Lazenby
1. Bond gets captured and tortured, the whole title sequence showing his time in prison is great.
2. solid first half until Iceland.
3. good SFX
4. david arnolds overly techno score has some pretty cool tracks, especially the gunbarrel music.
CONS:
1. everything that's been already mentioned millions of times by now.
Lots of energy
A GREAT Brosnan performance
The Pikelet
Toby Stevens was fantastic at OTT
The swordfight
The score (mostly)
Cons:
Dodgy CGI
Berry's dialogue in places
The Moneypenny VR scene
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
DAD has changed in my eyes, but only after someone pointed out its key flaw. First half Connery era, second half Moore era. It doesn't try to do anything truly stand alone outside of the PTS. Jinx should have been a brilliant character, and has all the right physicality and function, but the dialogue is awful. It goes against her as an action heroine. The same is true of the Q scene. It should work, but everything thrown in from 40 years is blatant, and Cleese is given jokes he clearly had no input on. Perhaps the biggest problem is Toby Stephens as Graves. I have a very hard time matching his performance to Moon at the start, he lacks energy and conviction, looking either gaunt or bored at times. Bond is outlaw one moment, key operative the next. The film has so many disjointed jumps it doesn't flow very well, and that problem only eases with multiple viewings. You know when the pace will change, so you are ready for it.
It's clear director Tamori was desperate to do something new and different and it simply doesn't work. The CGI feels excessive and fake (ruining the stunts are real tradition in the process of the earlier and later films), and the levels of hype in promoting the film were far too much.
However, there are individual pieces that are clever. The Vanquish is one of the best Bond cars, and the use of the ice palace is big scale and opulent, both for the party scenes and the car chase. David Arnold's top notch music. The locations used as nicely done and the miniatures work harks back to the glory days of the Moore era. The Icarus orbital weapon is true to YOLT, DAF and MKR in technological scope. Using North Korea as the framework of the baddie has Smersh / Spectre touches to it and Mr Brosnan does have a couple of good scenes with Dame Judi's M, as well as the chap in Cuba, and Mr Chang in Hong Kong. Rick Yune knows he is joining the Rosa Klebb, Oddjob and Jaws brigade, and brings a workable level of physical and even psycho menace to Zao. Finally, Rosamund Pike does a good job of making Frost unlikeable before she is revealed as the turncoat. (Incidentally, Her comments on the audio commentary are charming, insightful and often damned funny too!)
All of these things I discovered and appreciated through the DVD and my telly, not the cinema screen. Which for a Bond film is simply out of place. DAD will always be an experiment that went wrong a bit like QoS did six years later. But like the later film it does have redeeming qualities that I find genuinely enjoyable.
Star Trek Nemisis however, will never be so fortunate.
A bit over the top, but cool indeed. Brosnan's best villain after Elektra King (of course).
I don't have to try with DAD.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
++1 -{ -{
Not DAD, or MR or AVTAK or TMWTGG, but a competently produced, written & directed adventure with a great Bond girl, and a good climax.
So what? You hate Chinese girls? Machine guns? Stealth boats? Nuts who have influence on world events? A Bond that falls for his chick & vows not to leave her behind?
I get that it might not be your favourite or that it might be near the bottom of your list, but to characterize it as "all time low" indicates a personal prejudice that you seem unable to acknowledge to both me and yourself. 8-)
How about I say YOLT was the all time low? Or maybe FYEO?
I mean, as long as we are striving to make no sense....
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
The annoying thing is that "Nemesis" isn't intrinsically a bad film (like, say, "Generations")- there's a good movie in there struggling to get out..
Rather like Charles Helfensteins review of OHMSS. What went wrong? Did the director have too much power? Did the studios back the director? Did the studios not have any faith with Babs? Did they go for bums-on-seats? Did the director have no inclinations of what he was doing?
I know Mickey G cut himself away from the film (let alone Pierce) but how did Babs feel? How did most of the cast feel about it? How did Halle, Rosamunde and Toby feel about it? How it did he feel hamming it up so any sense of menace is destroyed
I really think there is a really juicy documentary to be made of this?
I've gone through my reasons for considering TND the all time low of the franchise. Others feel that way in this forum, so I'm not the only one. I don't foresee that will change in the future.
In any case, with your "chinese girls" and "personal prejudice" comments you are clearly crossing a red line, so get a grip, chrisisall.
I liked him as well TP. An arrogant, power hungry jerk. Toby Stephens played him perfectly
" I don't listen to hip hop!"
" I liked him as well TP. An arrogant, power hungry jerk. Toby Stephens played him perfectly"
Yes, he was an arrogant tosser, I wanted Bond to kick the sh*t out of him -{
+1 Agree with everything you say BL.
I'd settle for tossing the dude through a burning jet engine.
Now I can say it's a well made flick that I just can't enjoy.
For years I couldn't watch YOLT because of Aki's death!
That's what I mean.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
" I'd settle for tossing the dude through a burning jet engine "
Yes either way he was toast !
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5FsrNEeqd6Q
You can go through a jet engine, with only minor injuries.
But I wouldn't want to try.
Sir Miles and Number24, arguing, Virgil37 and Chrisisall arguing
Last night it was Blackleiter and myself !
This really is getting more and more like an old folks home !
WHY WHEN I WAS A KID.....
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Sure on an A6 intruder with a lengthy 8-9 foot air intake. That guy's life was spared because on that engine, the blades were deep within, and his arm prevented him from being sucked through the blades. When his helmet was sucked off and hit the blades, it killed the engine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF3Iz7b95-8
On typical airliners, the blades are close to the edge and make for interesting entertainment during bird tests.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1f0Tk-tD6k
EDIT: I know you were just joking around, but I had remembered this video and wanted to prove my intelligence to my deep seeded insecurities.
" When his helmet was sucked off !". That's the way I want to go !
I'm always will to be taught new stuff, I have that printed on my business cards
That I leave in phone boxes .
Interesting videos -{