Pros and Cons: Tomorrow Never Dies

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Comments

  • broadshoulderbroadshoulder Acton, London, UKPosts: 1,363MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    In this case, it is probably an age thing (though I absolutely deny that in the case of music- I'm a pro musician, music is my life, and I have an open mind where that is concerned).

    You have to put yourself in the place of a teenager in the 70s who fell in love with the James Bond movies before the age of videos, DVDs, Blu-Rays etc. A big film (and of course the Bonds qualify) would show in the big city (in my case Glasgow) for several weeks before moving to the big town (Paisley) then the small town (Barrhead) initially for a full week then only for Thurs-Fri-Sat. Later it would be revived on a double bill (IIRC first with "Gold", directed by Peter Hunt & starring Roger Moore so no hardship) then a Bond double bill (again, IIRC with FRWL)....
    So I caught DAF every time, once not leaving the cinema and watching all the showings. Easily 20x.

    I bought the video on Betamax, then again on VHS, then again on DVD, then the special edition, then the Ultimate Edition... you get the idea.

    This just applies to DAF (don't get me started on the others), which although I love it enormously isn't even my favourite Bond film. As may have been noticed, I don't get involved in the ranking threads but I'm going to admit here that it's probably TB, which I have seen even more times than DAF.


    Oh happy days

    I have the Odeon Southend-on-sea to thank for mine. I keep expecting the cinema advert for "ere Burt....this is the place" for Mr Woo's Chinese takeaway to pop up
    1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,749Chief of Staff
    Higgins wrote:
    I've heard insults which where much more hurtful than that :D :D

    Why am I not surprised ? :))
    YNWA 97
  • ACACIA_AVENUEACACIA_AVENUE UKPosts: 1,775MI6 Agent
    I can only echo what young Barbel has stated about being a youngster in the 60s' and 70's when the cinema was the only place you could watch a Bond film, albeit on first release or as double bill feature, in some cases going twice in one week sometimes.

    I saw every Bond film from Dr No up to TWINE at the same cinema 'The Esseldo' in Tunbridge Wells, I think I saw DAF about 9 times, why you ask? well Connery was back as Bond after a 4 year absence and to a young Bond fan bought up with Connery as Bond was a good enough reason.

    DAF played to packed audiences for weeks with extra late evening performances, such was his pulling power as Bond in those days.

    Also in those days you could walk in half way through a film sometimes, watch it, then watch it fully again ... and that was a bonus on wet Saturday afternoon.
    One of us smells like a tart's handkerchief.
  • Bondage007Bondage007 AustraliaPosts: 371MI6 Agent
    don't give me any ideas haha

    I wouldn't dream of it :))
    2019 Bondathon...in progress (6) FRWL (7) GE (8) FYEO (9) TND (10) MR (11) GF (12) LALD (13) DAF (14) LTK (15) TMWTGG (16) TB (17) TSWLM (18) DAD (19) AVTAK (20) YOLT (21) QOS (22) SF (23) TWINE (24) SP
  • Bondage007Bondage007 AustraliaPosts: 371MI6 Agent
    TND is sort of a jack of all trades but master of none film. When guys say they want to be James Bond, for me, TND is it. He has the coolest performance since FRWL, the way he looks (definitely the most handsome of the 6 Bonds), dresses and moves.

    There's quite a few scenes that make me smile.

    The cons are that it's a bit generic and doesn't have the class of a lot of previous entries, but damn Brosnan looks awesome in this.

    I'd say that after 18 years, TND beats GE as my favourite Brosnan movie. GE's cons bother me more than TND's
    2019 Bondathon...in progress (6) FRWL (7) GE (8) FYEO (9) TND (10) MR (11) GF (12) LALD (13) DAF (14) LTK (15) TMWTGG (16) TB (17) TSWLM (18) DAD (19) AVTAK (20) YOLT (21) QOS (22) SF (23) TWINE (24) SP
  • blame_thatcherblame_thatcher Posts: 199MI6 Agent
    Pros:

    Brosnan looks the part this time, less self-conscious than GoldenEye.
    Some good large-scale action sequences in first half of film.
    David Arnold score is good fun (despite relying too much on Bond theme).
    Michelle Yeoh is quite enchanting.

    Cons:
    Brosnan still makes a hash of many scenes.
    Zero chemistry between Brosnan and Teri Hatcher.
    Jonathan Pryce can't do anything with a thankless role.
    Second half of film has almost literally no plot but lots of bad writing.
    Action sequences also greatly diminish in quality in second half.
    Stealth boat climax is a huge damp squib with no excitement, tension or suspense whatsoever.
    Sheryl Crow song is crap, chosen over vastly superior kd lang song because of better sales prospects.
    Worst Michael G.Wilson cameo of the series.
    Crap miniature effects.
  • Agent PurpleAgent Purple Posts: 857MI6 Agent
    Bondage007 wrote:
    don't give me any ideas haha

    I wouldn't dream of it :))

    Nice one, lol.

    This was the first Bond film I saw in theatres. I love Pryce's execution as Carver, he's my fave Brosnan Era villain, even though I prefer GE as a movie to this.
    "Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
    New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
    1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
    Bond actors to be re-ranked later
  • broadshoulderbroadshoulder Acton, London, UKPosts: 1,363MI6 Agent
    Pros:

    Brosnan looks the part this time, less self-conscious than GoldenEye.
    Some good large-scale action sequences in first half of film.
    David Arnold score is good fun (despite relying too much on Bond theme).
    Michelle Yeoh is quite enchanting.

    Cons:
    Brosnan still makes a hash of many scenes.
    Zero chemistry between Brosnan and Teri Hatcher.
    Jonathan Pryce can't do anything with a thankless role.
    Second half of film has almost literally no plot but lots of bad writing.
    Action sequences also greatly diminish in quality in second half.
    Stealth boat climax is a huge damp squib with no excitement, tension or suspense whatsoever.
    Sheryl Crow song is crap, chosen over vastly superior kd lang song because of better sales prospects.
    Worst Michael G.Wilson cameo of the series.
    Crap miniature effects.

    Good stuff +1
    1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
  • WadsyWadsy Auckland, New ZealandPosts: 412MI6 Agent
    Tomorrow Never Dies...

    Pro's:

    The BMW car park chase scene - Very thrilling and exciting

    Con's:

    Everything else in the movie...
    1. FYEO 2. OHMSS 3. LTK 4. FRWL 5. TLD 6. TSWLM 7. AVTAK 8. GF 9. MR 10. TB 11. OP 12. SF 13. DN 14. SP 15. LALD 16. GE 17. CR 18. YOLT 19. TWINE 20. TMWTGG 21. NTTD 22. TND 23. QOS 24. NSNA 25. DAD 26. DAF 27. CR '67

    1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Lazenby 5. Craig 6. Brosnan
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,062MI6 Agent
    Wadsy wrote:
    Tomorrow Never Dies...

    Pro's:

    The BMW car park chase scene - Very thrilling and exciting

    Con's:

    Everything else in the movie...
    Consider yourself officially off my Christmas card list. :))
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • Agent PurpleAgent Purple Posts: 857MI6 Agent
    The only cons I might have with this movie are these (and they're really minor quibbles because I generally love it):

    -Stamper is a good henchman, but not a great one like Oddjob or Red Grant. He does destroy the crappy Elvis though.
    -The dialogue isn't on the same level as GoldenEye's. GE, imo, has fantastic dialogue, while TND doesn't shine much in that aspect, at least to me. But it's not a big deal to me.
    -Spottiswoode is no Campbell, but he gets the job done well enough for me.

    Btw, this film is a 9/10 for me.
    "Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
    New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
    1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
    Bond actors to be re-ranked later
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,062MI6 Agent
    The only cons I might have with this movie are these (and they're really minor quibbles because I generally love it):

    -Stamper is a good henchman, but not a great one like Oddjob or Red Grant. He does destroy the crappy Elvis though.
    -The dialogue isn't on the same level as GoldenEye's. GE, imo, has fantastic dialogue, while TND doesn't shine much in that aspect, at least to me. But it's not a big deal to me.
    -Spottiswoode is no Campbell, but he gets the job done well enough for me.

    Btw, this film is a 9/10 for me.
    You demonstrate awesome taste & style here, sir! -{
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • Agent PurpleAgent Purple Posts: 857MI6 Agent
    chrisisall wrote:
    The only cons I might have with this movie are these (and they're really minor quibbles because I generally love it):

    -Stamper is a good henchman, but not a great one like Oddjob or Red Grant. He does destroy the crappy Elvis though.
    -The dialogue isn't on the same level as GoldenEye's. GE, imo, has fantastic dialogue, while TND doesn't shine much in that aspect, at least to me. But it's not a big deal to me.
    -Spottiswoode is no Campbell, but he gets the job done well enough for me.

    Btw, this film is a 9/10 for me.

    You demonstrate awesome taste & style here, sir! -{

    Thanks man, cheers :007) {[] -{
    "Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
    New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
    1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
    Bond actors to be re-ranked later
  • blame_thatcherblame_thatcher Posts: 199MI6 Agent
    -Spottiswoode is no Campbell
    Thank goodness. At least TND occasionally looks like a reasonably large motion picture and not a middling TV-movie like much of GoldenEye did.
  • broadshoulderbroadshoulder Acton, London, UKPosts: 1,363MI6 Agent
    -Spottiswoode is no Campbell
    Thank goodness. At least TND occasionally looks like a reasonably large motion picture and not a middling TV-movie like much of GoldenEye did.

    Goldeneye just looks cheap. That snowy backdrop in the PTS looks obvious
    1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,062MI6 Agent
    DN looks cheap, but I love it more than most. Just sayin'. ;)
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • Agent PurpleAgent Purple Posts: 857MI6 Agent
    "Gupta, is the missile ready to fire?"
    "Yes, sir."
    "Then it seems you've outlived your contract." *shoots Gupta*

    (Interesting that, if I remember correctly, this and OP are the Bond films Calvin Dyson said he's watched the most.)
    "Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
    New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
    1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
    Bond actors to be re-ranked later
  • Lady IceLady Ice Posts: 279MI6 Agent
    chrisisall wrote:
    DN looks cheap, but I love it more than most. Just sayin'. ;)

    It's not a bad thing if a film looks cheap unless it cost loads of money to make. Dr No doesn't look much cheaper than its budget.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    Honestly I don't think it looks cheap at all. An exotic location
    plus a magnificent villain's pad. -{
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Agent PurpleAgent Purple Posts: 857MI6 Agent
    I like the Sheryl Crow song, but I wonder how the K. D. Lang song would've worked.

    I get the impression that the latter was inspired on the TB theme song.
    "Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
    New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
    1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
    Bond actors to be re-ranked later
  • Virgil37Virgil37 Posts: 1,212MI6 Agent
    Pros:
    -Sheryl Crow's song. One of my favourites ever.
    -Teri Hatcher. Just as Bond girl, not the character.
    - Danish lesson scene. Funny.

    Cons:
    - Unfinished script. They were writing as they were shooting and it shows.
    - Gratuitous action scenes, absolutely unbelievable.
    - Un-imaginative. Another blonde henchman? in 1997? give me a break. Another submarine? Again, they went for the cliches.
    -Johnathan Pryce, totally maniacal and overacted.
    - Pierce Brosnan's unbalanced performance. Not his fault, he didn't have the material to work with. He limits himself to look handsome.
    -Did I mention the lack of a proper script?

    As I've mentioned many times, my least favourite movie of them all to this day. Actually, I don't own it. For me it's a textbook example of how not to do a Bond movie. It feels rushed, like "come on guys, we have to establish Pierce as Bond, we have to release another one quick", "but we haven't got a decent shooting script", "Never mind, we have to shoot anyway".This they tried to solve with action, but if I want to watch extreme sports, I watch a documentary. It can be no coincidence that Cubby Broccoli died in 1996 as they were developing TND and for the first time, the team didn't have his advice.
  • Agent PurpleAgent Purple Posts: 857MI6 Agent
    To each their own, Virgil.

    Do you have a ranking of the movies?
    "Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
    New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
    1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
    Bond actors to be re-ranked later
  • broadshoulderbroadshoulder Acton, London, UKPosts: 1,363MI6 Agent
    Virgil37 wrote:
    P- Unfinished script. They were writing as they were shooting and it shows.

    I remember them writing it as they were shooting it. It really shows at the climax. There are a couple of funny lines

    Mr. Stamper: Dr. Kaufman's record was fifty-two hours. I'm hoping to break it.
    James Bond: I would have thought watching your TV shows was torture enough.

    That actually made me laugh out loud. I don't own the DVD at all. The James Bond British fan club wanted me to do an article on it so they sent me a copy. Six years after it came out.
    1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
  • Virgil37Virgil37 Posts: 1,212MI6 Agent
    It's another tragic case where the film industry could afford $100 million of explosions but not a capable writer.

    I can't sum up this movie better than this. Absolutely_cart, absolutely spot on.
  • Virgil37Virgil37 Posts: 1,212MI6 Agent
    To each their own, Virgil.

    Do you have a ranking of the movies?

    Of course I have a ranking. The top is FRWL.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 37,860Chief of Staff
    I've mentioned this before, so please forgive the repetition.

    When TND was released, I was going through a very bad time both personally and professionally (and especially financially, because of those two things coinciding). I snuck out to watch TND, and for two hours was taken away from my misery into James Bond's world. *

    Firstly, I LOVED David Arnold's work (the first thing that hit me- here's a live version of the first piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxMaUcunIO4) which firmly established him to me as the natural successor to John Barry. You'll know how important the Bond music is to me, and after the disappointment of GE's score this was uplifting.

    Secondly, it was here that I accepted Brosnan as 007. On GE, I was consciously comparing him to the great Timothy Dalton and regretting that TD wasn't playing Bond in that film. Here PB had grown into the part and genuinely conveyed his rightness for it (more relaxed and confident, unafraid to show vulnerability).

    Thirdly, I enjoyed the simple (? classic) predictability of the plot. Sure, it's formulaic, but that's part of the ritual- it's a variation on TSWLM which was a variation on YOLT which was an elaboration on DN- and I can see the criticism that TND is "Bond by the numbers" but personally I enjoy those numbers. It's a bit like going to a Paul McCartney concert- if he doesn't do the songs you're paying your money for (with a few newer numbers thrown in), then he isn't doing his job. TND does the job. It's part of the ritual.

    Fourthly, some excellently OTT performances. Jonathan Pryce is perfectly capable of underplaying a part when necessary, but here he chews the scenery with relish and could have done more with better writing (yes, I admit that's a weakness of this film). Teri Hatcher and Brosnan have a believable love/hate chemistry. Dench & co do their stuff with panache (Samantha Bond's delivery of "You'll just have to decide how much pumping is needed, James" and Bond's reply are superb). The minor characters (Dr Kaufman, Admiral Roebuck) provide colour.

    Flaws, sure. The last third doesn't compare with the first 66%. Logic disappears (why is Carver even on the stealth boat?) but you can say that about any Bond film.

    So, I love TND. Admittedly my view is coloured by the circumstances under which I first saw it!

    * ignoring my bleeper and mobile phone, both going non-stop.
  • Bondage007Bondage007 AustraliaPosts: 371MI6 Agent
    Interesting that the lack of complete script was brought up. On a related note, I think LTK suffered a writer's strike....

    It's funny that I currently criticise QoS for the script but it doesn't bother me (much) for TND. I wonder if in subsequent years the script of QoS will bother me less.
    2019 Bondathon...in progress (6) FRWL (7) GE (8) FYEO (9) TND (10) MR (11) GF (12) LALD (13) DAF (14) LTK (15) TMWTGG (16) TB (17) TSWLM (18) DAD (19) AVTAK (20) YOLT (21) QOS (22) SF (23) TWINE (24) SP
  • blame_thatcherblame_thatcher Posts: 199MI6 Agent
    Nicholas Meyer wrote a draft. It featured Bond screaming "CAARRRRVVEEEERRRR!!"
  • Virgil37Virgil37 Posts: 1,212MI6 Agent
    Bondage007 wrote:
    Interesting that the lack of complete script was brought up. On a related note, I think LTK suffered a writer's strike....

    Yep, Richard Maibaum in 1988 had to stop writing. But probably a first draft of Maibaum was much, much better than TND's "shooting script". It was his last Bond, by then he could probably write a Bond movie in his sleep.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    I've mentioned this before, so please forgive the repetition.

    When TND was released, I was going through a very bad time both personally and professionally (and especially financially, because of those two things coinciding). I snuck out to watch TND, and for two hours was taken away from my misery into James Bond's world. *

    Firstly, I LOVED David Arnold's work (the first thing that hit me- here's a live version of the first piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxMaUcunIO4) which firmly established him to me as the natural successor to John Barry. You'll know how important the Bond music is to me, and after the disappointment of GE's score this was uplifting.

    Secondly, it was here that I accepted Brosnan as 007. On GE, I was consciously comparing him to the great Timothy Dalton and regretting that TD wasn't playing Bond in that film. Here PB had grown into the part and genuinely conveyed his rightness for it (more relaxed and confident, unafraid to show vulnerability).

    Thirdly, I enjoyed the simple (? classic) predictability of the plot. Sure, it's formulaic, but that's part of the ritual- it's a variation on TSWLM which was a variation on YOLT which was an elaboration on DN- and I can see the criticism that TND is "Bond by the numbers" but personally I enjoy those numbers. It's a bit like going to a Paul McCartney concert- if he doesn't do the songs you're paying your money for (with a few newer numbers thrown in), then he isn't doing his job. TND does the job. It's part of the ritual.

    Fourthly, some excellently OTT performances. Jonathan Pryce is perfectly capable of underplaying a part when necessary, but here he chews the scenery with relish and could have done more with better writing (yes, I admit that's a weakness of this film). Teri Hatcher and Brosnan have a believable love/hate chemistry. Dench & co do their stuff with panache (Samantha Bond's delivery of "You'll just have to decide how much pumping is needed, James" and Bond's reply are superb). The minor characters (Dr Kaufman, Admiral Roebuck) provide colour.

    Flaws, sure. The last third doesn't compare with the first 66%. Logic disappears (why is Carver even on the stealth boat?) but you can say that about any Bond film.

    So, I love TND. Admittedly my view is coloured by the circumstances under which I first saw it!

    * ignoring my bleeper and mobile phone, both going non-stop.

    Thanks for the sensible review.

    We often forget that you are not only a blunt instrument with a ban button :D
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
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