Pros and Cons: Tomorrow Never Dies

Agent Purple

Chris, does Carver make your Top 10 Bond Villains?

chrisisall

Agent Purple wrote:

Chris, does Carver make your Top 10 Bond Villains?

Oh yeah. -{

Agent Purple

And I presume Wei Lin makes your Top 10 Bond Girls.

chrisisall

Agent Purple wrote:

And I presume Wai Lin makes your Top 10 Bond Girls.

She's my favourite, actually.

Robbo88

Is it just me or does Pierce do a weird American(ish) accent right before he kills Carver?

The line "You forgot the first rule of the mass media Elliot."

But he then delivers "give the people what they want." In his normal voice.

Matt S

Robbo88 wrote:

Is it just me or does Pierce do a weird American(ish) accent right before he kills Carver?

The line "You forgot the first rule of the mass media Elliot."

But he then delivers "give the people what they want." In his normal voice.

It doesn't sound much different to me. His accent in general is a mix between Irish, London and American, all the places he's lived. Then there's some RP from acting school. Sometimes different parts come out.

Agent Purple

"They'll print anything these days."

Agent Purple

"There's no news... like bad news."

Jag

To me, TND has one of the best opening songs. Surprised that some many people list it as a negative...

Agent Purple

Well, I like the Sheryl Crow song, but thereare definitely various others that I prefer to it.

This is how I'd rank the title songs of the Brosnan Era:

"The World is Not Enough"
"GoldenEye"
"Tomorrow Never Dies"
"Die Another Day"

The K. D. Lang song rocks, but I dunno if it would've fit in the title sequence.

As for TND's title sequence itself, I think it's okay, but not Kleinman's best work. I def prefer the title sequences for GE and TWINE.

herbie123

The trouble with the PB films is that the marketing men took over.
Bond in a BMW, the advertisement of Omega watches, the pens etc
However I quite like Goldeneye, and I think that PB himself did a good job as Bond, its just the films lacked depth.

Agent Purple

herbie123 wrote:

The trouble with the PB films is that the marketing men took over.
Bond in a BMW, the advertisement of Omega watches, the pens etc
However I quite like Goldeneye, and I think that PB himself did a good job as Bond, its just the films lacked depth.

Who needs "depth" (whatever that means) when you have fun action sequences?

Also I love the plots in the first 3 Brosnan films (for me the DAD plot isn't too great but it does the job).

If you want some "depth", go watch the Craig films.

Different films for different moods.

chrisisall

Agent Purple wrote:

herbie123 wrote:

The trouble with the PB films is that the marketing men took over.
Bond in a BMW, the advertisement of Omega watches, the pens etc
However I quite like Goldeneye, and I think that PB himself did a good job as Bond, its just the films lacked depth.

Who needs "depth" (whatever that means) when you have fun action sequences?

Also I love the plots in the first 3 Brosnan films (for me the DAD plot isn't too great but it does the job).

If you want some "depth", go watch the Craig films.

Different films for different moods.

Agent Purple, my MAN! {[]

Agent Purple

chrisisall wrote:

Agent Purple wrote:

herbie123 wrote:

The trouble with the PB films is that the marketing men took over.
Bond in a BMW, the advertisement of Omega watches, the pens etc
However I quite like Goldeneye, and I think that PB himself did a good job as Bond, its just the films lacked depth.

Who needs "depth" (whatever that means) when you have fun action sequences?

Also I love the plots in the first 3 Brosnan films (for me the DAD plot isn't too great but it does the job).

If you want some "depth", go watch the Craig films.

Different films for different moods.

Agent Purple, my MAN! {[]

Hell yeah!!! :007) {[]

Jag

Agent Purple wrote:

Well, I like the Sheryl Crow song, but thereare definitely various others that I prefer to it.

This is how I'd rank the title songs of the Brosnan Era:

"The World is Not Enough"
"GoldenEye"
"Tomorrow Never Dies"
"Die Another Day"

The K. D. Lang song rocks, but I dunno if it would've fit in the title sequence.

As for TND's title sequence itself, I think it's okay, but not Kleinman's best work. I def prefer the title sequences for GE and TWINE.

For me:
1"The World is Not Enough" & "Tomorrow Never Dies" - both wonderful songs
2. "GoldenEye" - I'm a big Tina Turner fan, but somehow never liked this song. It's OK in the movie, but would not listen to it in its own.
3. "Die Another Day" - again, love Madonna's earlier work, but this song does not work even in the movie

In fact, all Bond title songs were great pre-Brosnan. Then they became less good, and under Craig they went straight downhill, with the exception of Adele's "Skyfall".

Loeffelholz

I'm not crazy about the Madonna tune, but it's still on my Bond playlist. The other three Brosnan theme songs are fantastic, IMO. But I also really enjoy the Craig ones (Jack White & Alicia Keys' tune less so).

Jag

After Adele, only Sam Smith comes close. I love Alicia Keys, so not sure how she ended up doing something so forgettable.

heartbroken_mr_drax

Jag wrote:

I love Alicia Keys, so not sure how she ended up doing something so forgettable.

Another Way to Die is a horrible song. It's almost if it's out of tune or key or something. The singing is shouty and just unpleasant.

It's a shame because I think QoS is Arnold's best work.

Matt S

Jag wrote:

After Adele, only Sam Smith comes close. I love Alicia Keys, so not sure how she ended up doing something so forgettable.

I wish it was more forgettable. It's like a horrifying sight that haunts you for the rest of your life.

I remembered it was bad, but then I listened to it again recently after a number of years to remind me it was worse than what I had remembered.

The TND song was better than I remembered, but the lyrics are terrible. The song Arnold, Black and McAlmont wrote is far superior, and really one of the best Bond songs ever. It lifts up the ending of the film.

Barbel

Nice to see another "Surrender" fan!

am747

Pros:
* PTS
* Hamburg sequences
* Background score

Cons:
* 2nd half is not as exciting as the 1st part

I watched this film after a long time, and it still manages to entertain esp. if you watch it w/o expecting too much from it. A nice fun film!

Agent Purple

am747 wrote:

Pros:
* PTS
* Hamburg sequences
* Background score

Cons:
* 2nd half is not as exciting as the 1st part

I watched this film after a long time, and it still manages to entertain esp. if you watch it w/o expecting too much from it. A nice fun film!

TND is what it is, and I accept that.

My main issue with the film is Teri Hatcher, luckily she's not in the film for long and doesn't stop me from giving it a 10/10.

Grindelwald

Higgins wrote:

Virgil37 wrote:

Higgins wrote:

Biggest flaw imo is Teri Hatcher!
Oh how I hate this woman! X-(

Why?

I don't know. I cringe when I see her eyes. She's playing a troublemaker in Desperate Housewifes and is similar annoying to me in TND.

She's average looking but to me she screams trouble and annoyance.
If she was asking me for a date, I'd run!

She looked pretty nice during MacGyver :v

Grindelwald

Matt S wrote:

I just watched TND again since I hadn't in almost a decade. Lot's of good things in the film, and it's really fun, though overall it's not a particularly strong film

Pros:
- Pierce Brosnan is much better in the film than I remember. He's slick, but not as much of the caricature that I thought he was. And he makes the film fun.
- Bond has great one-liners
- Gupta doesn't seem like he real, but I've known people just like him
- The Bond theme is overused in the score, but it feels so good!
- Good use of David Arnold's original theme in the score
- "Surrender" is a fantastic theme. Great music and great lyrics, along the lines of Barry's best Bond themes.
- The BMW 750iL. It's not a very Bond car, but it fits the German location and Bond's cover as a banker better than a British touring car would. It has fantastic gadgets.
- Dr. Kaufmann can't be taken seriously at all, but he's a brilliant character and clearly influenced by Maxwell Smart's archenemies Siegfried played by Bernie Kopell's
- Underwater scene inside the Devonshire is well-done. I think it's better than the similar scene in FYEO
- Stamper is threatening enough
- Carver's kung fu moves are amusing
- Strong female character in Wai Lin, and Bond always shows her complete respect
- Good death for Carver
- Creative action sequences

Cons:
- The story and characters have no depth at all
- Unexciting visuals
- The story is too much like YOLT and TSWLM, but not as creative
- It's so much fun, but it completely lacks suspense
- The sinking of the Devonshire drags on
- I forgot how bad Eliot Carver is. He's not played believably at all, and his lines are terrible. Roger Moore often says he wants to be a Bond villain because they have the best lines, but Carver certainly did not
- Paris Carver is like a 90s television character. I used to like her, but not so much now
- Jack Wade did not need to return. He's like J.W. Pepper in this film more than in GoldenEye
- Stealth boat finale is not particularly interesting, especially compared to all the other actions scenes in the film. It's just all shooting and plays out like a video game/typical 90s action film
- Bond and Wai Lin getting together at the end doesn't fit
- M and Moneypenny are pretty cheesy
- The retitled theme "Surrender" is pushed to the end in favour of a less spectacular theme at the beginning

I agree , you make some good points....personally (like GE) I find the soundtrack generic

Pepper is much more annoying than Wade imo.

Agent Purple

Grindelwald wrote:

Matt S wrote:

I just watched TND again since I hadn't in almost a decade. Lot's of good things in the film, and it's really fun, though overall it's not a particularly strong film

Pros:
- Pierce Brosnan is much better in the film than I remember. He's slick, but not as much of the caricature that I thought he was. And he makes the film fun.
- Bond has great one-liners
- Gupta doesn't seem like he real, but I've known people just like him
- The Bond theme is overused in the score, but it feels so good!
- Good use of David Arnold's original theme in the score
- "Surrender" is a fantastic theme. Great music and great lyrics, along the lines of Barry's best Bond themes.
- The BMW 750iL. It's not a very Bond car, but it fits the German location and Bond's cover as a banker better than a British touring car would. It has fantastic gadgets.
- Dr. Kaufmann can't be taken seriously at all, but he's a brilliant character and clearly influenced by Maxwell Smart's archenemies Siegfried played by Bernie Kopell's
- Underwater scene inside the Devonshire is well-done. I think it's better than the similar scene in FYEO
- Stamper is threatening enough
- Carver's kung fu moves are amusing
- Strong female character in Wai Lin, and Bond always shows her complete respect
- Good death for Carver
- Creative action sequences

Cons:
- The story and characters have no depth at all
- Unexciting visuals
- The story is too much like YOLT and TSWLM, but not as creative
- It's so much fun, but it completely lacks suspense
- The sinking of the Devonshire drags on
- I forgot how bad Eliot Carver is. He's not played believably at all, and his lines are terrible. Roger Moore often says he wants to be a Bond villain because they have the best lines, but Carver certainly did not
- Paris Carver is like a 90s television character. I used to like her, but not so much now
- Jack Wade did not need to return. He's like J.W. Pepper in this film more than in GoldenEye
- Stealth boat finale is not particularly interesting, especially compared to all the other actions scenes in the film. It's just all shooting and plays out like a video game/typical 90s action film
- Bond and Wai Lin getting together at the end doesn't fit
- M and Moneypenny are pretty cheesy
- The retitled theme "Surrender" is pushed to the end in favour of a less spectacular theme at the beginning

I agree , you make some good points....personally (like GE) I find the soundtrack generic

Pepper is much more annoying than Wade imo.

I agree. Especially in L&LD, where we see him spit tobacco.

It's one of the things that keep me from placing that film in my Top 10, it's a little gross for me to watch him spit tobacco.

Grindelwald

For one film I don't mind Pepper but he adds (to an extent) to the downfall of TMWTGG.

Agent Purple

I can stand JW more in TMWTGG, as he doesn't spit tobacco the way he does in L&LD (as far as I recall anyway).

I do find him unnecessary in TMWTGG though, as he's mainly there for comedy and I think Moore himself is enough to bring the laughs.

heartbroken_mr_drax

Matt S wrote:

I just watched TND again since I hadn't in almost a decade. Lot's of good things in the film, and it's really fun, though overall it's not a particularly strong film

Pros:
- Pierce Brosnan is much better in the film than I remember. He's slick, but not as much of the caricature that I thought he was. And he makes the film fun.
- Bond has great one-liners
- Gupta doesn't seem like he real, but I've known people just like him
- The Bond theme is overused in the score, but it feels so good!
- Good use of David Arnold's original theme in the score
- "Surrender" is a fantastic theme. Great music and great lyrics, along the lines of Barry's best Bond themes.
- The BMW 750iL. It's not a very Bond car, but it fits the German location and Bond's cover as a banker better than a British touring car would. It has fantastic gadgets.
- Dr. Kaufmann can't be taken seriously at all, but he's a brilliant character and clearly influenced by Maxwell Smart's archenemies Siegfried played by Bernie Kopell's
- Underwater scene inside the Devonshire is well-done. I think it's better than the similar scene in FYEO
- Stamper is threatening enough
- Carver's kung fu moves are amusing
- Strong female character in Wai Lin, and Bond always shows her complete respect
- Good death for Carver
- Creative action sequences

Cons:
- The story and characters have no depth at all
- Unexciting visuals
- The story is too much like YOLT and TSWLM, but not as creative
- It's so much fun, but it completely lacks suspense
- The sinking of the Devonshire drags on
- I forgot how bad Eliot Carver is. He's not played believably at all, and his lines are terrible. Roger Moore often says he wants to be a Bond villain because they have the best lines, but Carver certainly did not
- Paris Carver is like a 90s television character. I used to like her, but not so much now
- Jack Wade did not need to return. He's like J.W. Pepper in this film more than in GoldenEye
- Stealth boat finale is not particularly interesting, especially compared to all the other actions scenes in the film. It's just all shooting and plays out like a video game/typical 90s action film
- Bond and Wai Lin getting together at the end doesn't fit
- M and Moneypenny are pretty cheesy
- The retitled theme "Surrender" is pushed to the end in favour of a less spectacular theme at the beginning

Great recap, I agree. Although I'd put Wai Lin as a con - boring and too tough.

Agent Purple

New list of Ps and Cs here:

Pros:

-Jonathan Pryce is fantastic as Carver.
-Fun action sequences.
-Wei Lin is a tough, kickass Bond Girl.
-Brosnan gives a fantastic performance, improving upon that in GE. He looks more comfortable in the role.
-The score is solid, and a breath of fresh air after the somewhat tiresome Serra score.
-The plot is interesting.
-Dr. Kauffmann

Cons:
-Limited chemistry between Brosnan and Yeoh.
-There's something slightly underwhelming about Stamper, apart from the fact that he's a Grant clone.

Overall, I love TND, and give it a 10/10.

Additional commentary:

-The TS isn't very good, def not one of Kleinman's best. It just looks bland and unappealing. The Sheryl Crow song is okay, but not one of the greatest.

am747

It is hard to find any major faults with TND. May be the finale could have been more interesting

PS I like both the songs - Crow's TND and Lang's Surrender. The score is very nice too esp. during the Hamburg sequences