Timothy Dalton - The first Feminist James Bond?

Absolutely_Cart

Compared to the often-dumb bikini-clad damsel-in-distress girls of the Moore and Connery era, Kara Milovy was a big step up as an actual non-objectified "bondgirl" and Pam Bouvier was a strong independent shotgun-toting CIA agent every bit as hard-edge as Dalton's Bond.

Aside from one unfortunate scene in TLD, in which Dalton rips off Pushkin's mistresses' nightgown to distract a guard, he generally shows a sense of respect for women that was not seen. And rather than seeing women as sexual conquests, Dalton's Bond is more of the monogamous type.

The women characters in the Brosnan and Craig movies were relatively more developed as characters and portrayed less as sex objects than the ones of the 60's and 70's. Goldeneye, in many ways represented a paradigm shift toward women characters, and Vesper Lynd in Casino Royale shows us how far we've come, but this all started with the Dalton movies.

Dalton, the feminist Bond

Hardyboy

Well, I remember when Dalton was first cast and it was announced that he'd have only one girl in TLD, people started saying this was a reflection of widespread fear of AIDS. But you may be on to something: perhaps his having only one girl reflects that TLD was the first film where Barbara Broccoli had a major say in the production?

broadshoulder

Absolutely_Cart wrote:

Compared to the often-dumb bikini-clad damsel-in-distress girls of the Moore and Connery era, Kara Milovy was a big step up as an actual non-objectified "bondgirl" and Pam Bouvier was a strong independent shotgun-toting CIA agent every bit as hard-edge as Dalton's Bond.

The strong women happened as far back as Pussy Galore and would include Tracy, Anya,Holly, Octopussy..

Absolutely_Cart wrote:

Aside from one unfortunate scene in TLD, in which Dalton rips off Pushkin's mistresses' nightgown to distract a guard, he generally shows a sense of respect for women that was not seen. And rather than seeing women as sexual conquests, Dalton's Bond is more of the monogamous type.

They are some who would say "that isn't James Bond"

Absolutely_Cart wrote:

The women characters in the Brosnan and Craig movies were relatively more developed as characters and portrayed less as sex objects than the ones of the 60's and 70's. Goldeneye, in many ways represented a paradigm shift toward women characters, and Vesper Lynd in Casino Royale shows us how far we've come, but this all started with the Dalton movies.

Dalton, the feminist Bond

I'd dispute you on the Brosnan movies - with the exception of Electra, most being pieces of cardboard.I'd go along with the Craig movies

Higgins

Not sure if faking romantic feelings towards Koskow's girlfriend to get infos out of the naive kid really qualifies him for being a feminist.

Like Hardyboy said, the producers realized that with the upcoming of AIDS, the easygoing sexuality from the Moore-age was a thing of the past and wanted to change that.

It's also right that the "equal" Bond Girl rubbish has been stressed at least since GF in every upcoming Bond movie - so this should not be taken too seriously.

So - yes there is a difference - but it's mainly due to the fact that the Bond Girl does not instantly fall in love (Oh James...) with him (perhaps mainly because she sees herself in an exclusive relationship with Koskow) and he does not go immediately into some bed-action with her.

The same could be said about Holly Goodhead - so if Moore would not have bedded Dufour previously - would that have made him the first feminist Bond :v ?

Dalton-Bond a feminist? No, he was a weak Bond

AlphaOmegaSin

It was mainly down to the AIDS Scare during the late 80's that had a lot of people worried about unsafe Sex.

Higgins

AlphaOmegaSin wrote:

that had a lot of people worried about unsafe Sex.

not me!

AlphaOmegaSin

One look at your Choice in Footwear and most Women would run away )

Sir Miles

Higgins wrote:

AlphaOmegaSin wrote:

that had a lot of people worried about unsafe Sex.

not me!

Only because you don't get any )

Higgins

) ) )

Sir Roger would be ashamed to hear about my chicks - score in the 80s

Thunderpussy

..... and I don't think "Self-Love" counts !

Higgins

if you say so....

Sir Miles

Higgins wrote:

) ) )

Sir Roger would be ashamed to hear about my chicks - score in the 80s

You mean you kept a chicken farm and you scored the eggs ? :v

Barbel

That's a fowl yolk you've cracked. Shell I duck down?

Sir Miles

Barbel wrote:

That's a fowl yolk you've cracked. Shell I duck down?

You can cluck right off !

AlphaOmegaSin

Your nucking futs

Absolutely_Cart

Higgins wrote:

It's also right that the "equal" Bond Girl rubbish has been stressed at least since GF in every upcoming Bond movie - so this should not be taken too seriously.

With "man talk", "men come first in Japan", blackmailing in Thunderball, everything involving women in LALD, I'd hardly call it stress. Yes, Tracy and such were exceptions, but it always reverted back. Dalton's "era" was the most consistent. But more than just the better casting choices, his overall demeanor and treatment toward women was much more equal than that of Moore and Connery. He neither placed them on a golden pedestal or treated them as inferior.

Asp9mm

I don't think you can say Dalton's era was more consistent, and it's not really comparable as there are only two films. In LTK 'it's a man's world down here' was uttered by Bond and he treats Pam with disdain to start with and through much of the film. So even in his two films, there is no feminist consistency. Quite the opposite.

Higgins

Absolutely_Cart wrote:

With "man talk", "men come first in Japan", blackmailing in Thunderball, everything involving women in LALD, I'd hardly call it stress. Yes, Tracy and such were exceptions, but it always reverted back. Dalton's "era" was the most consistent. But more than just the better casting choices, his overall demeanor and treatment toward women was much more equal than that of Moore and Connery. He neither placed them on a golden pedestal or treated them as inferior.

you realize that between GF and TLD we have more than 2 decades where society evolved - particularly in terms of sexual equality?

I'd put it more to that socialy developement than to his performance, casting or the storywriting.

I see that you are constantly making the same and not very smart mistake:
You see something and draw a connection with something else that you are seeing.*

What most of the time is missing is evidence that these 2 observations have a substantial correlation!

*My favorite example:
Observation number one: The birthrate in Europe is decreasing
Observation number 2: The population of stork birds is going down

So you have 2 independent observations and draw a correlation: The reason why there are less babies in Europe is because there are not enough stork birds, so it's evidence that stork birds bring babies.

Absolutely_Cart

I agree that society's change was gradual, but the shift from the treatment of women in Moore era to the Dalton era was significant.

It was as sudden from going from Stacey Sutton to Kara Milovy.

Higgins

You make a bad example imo.

Bond treated Stutton much better and "equal" than Kara 8-)

Absolutely_Cart

Higgins wrote:

You make a bad example imo.

Bond treated Stutton much better and "equal" than Kara 8-)

Moore in FYEO: "Put your sweater on ; I'll take you out for ice cream"
Moore in AVTAK: "Get in my van, little girl. I have ice cream"

)

Higgins

Avoiding to reply to my specific replies to your pointless statements?

I thought that we where talking about Bonds behavior to women AVTAK vs. TLD 8-)

What's next? An obese Moore signature?

Peppermill

But was Dalton really a one woman man in TLD? So what exactly was he doing in that extra hour with that woman on the boat?

Firemass

TSWLM: First feminist James Bond

AVTAK: Best feminist James Bond

TLD: Scared of HIV James Bond

Absolutely_Cart

Higgins wrote:

What's next? An obese Moore signature?

But Moore wasn't fat.

Barbel

Absolutely_Cart wrote:

Higgins wrote:

It's also right that the "equal" Bond Girl rubbish has been stressed at least since GF in every upcoming Bond movie - so this should not be taken too seriously.

With "man talk", "men come first in Japan", blackmailing in Thunderball, everything involving women in LALD, I'd hardly call it stress.

I think the important word in Higgins' statement is "upcoming"- it's been standard practice for many years that the latest Bond girl gives interviews to the press saying that her character is equal to Bond and won't be like her predecessors.... then during the movie she'll be tough and independent till ?75% of the way through when 007 has to rescue her (I'm thinking Anya here) and she melts in his arms at the end.

broadshoulder

Barbel wrote:

Absolutely_Cart wrote:

Higgins wrote:

It's also right that the "equal" Bond Girl rubbish has been stressed at least since GF in every upcoming Bond movie - so this should not be taken too seriously.

With "man talk", "men come first in Japan", blackmailing in Thunderball, everything involving women in LALD, I'd hardly call it stress.

I think the important word in Higgins' statement is "upcoming"- it's been standard practice for many years that the latest Bond girl gives interviews to the press saying that her character is equal to Bond and won't be like her predecessors.... then during the movie she'll be tough and independent till ?75% of the way through when 007 has to rescue her (I'm thinking Anya here) and she melts in his arms at the end.

I actually remember Barbara Bach actually saying that in 1977.

Then Lois Chiles does the same....and so on...and so on..

chrisisall

This thing about Bond bedding every girl in sight was getting as old as Moore. Tim's Bond was randy, but not dropping trou on every passing pretty...

Absolutely_Cart

Regardless on what metric we're using, Dalton was much nicer to women, on the whole, than Moore and Connery.

AlphaOmegaSin

But he did have his darker Scenes with Women, Lupe for instance.

Absolutely_Cart

I think Dalton treats both women and men with an equal harshness in accordance to his work. He's aggressive with women (just as he is with men), but not because they're women or because he wants to get in her pants.