Can't really forgive the "troubled production" and give QoS bonus sympathy points for that. Might as well give Thunderball bonus points for the pacing because it was "acceptable back in those days" or DAF more points because it had "Connery in it".
It's not bonus points: more that loads of films have production difficulties and to focus on that immediately draws attention to the flaws and dismisses the good stuff. Conversely, Skyfall's popularity was boosted by the fact that it was the fiftieth anniversary, which made audiences heap praise on it mainly because it referenced earlier films, and that it had been four years. If it had been released in 2010, there's no way it would have got the praise to the extent that it did, particularly from critics- and the focus on the 'emotions' and 'psychology' of Bond would not be treated as if it's a big innovation because we would have recently seen it in QoS and CR.
My feeling is that Spectre will surpass it and people will look back at Skyfall more critically.
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,929Chief of Staff
Can't really forgive the "troubled production" and give QoS bonus sympathy points for that. Might as well give Thunderball bonus points for the pacing because it was "acceptable back in those days" or DAF more points because it had "Connery in it".
The script is an incoherent mess, I have no idea how he managed to let Vesper go, the action is incomprehensible. There's no Bond moments in it. Oh wait there is. Stolen 99% from Goldfinger except black not gold.
The script is straightforward - not really sure why you can't understand it ?:) same goes for the action....lots of it and it's frantic - very easy to follow though...
What 'Bond moments' were you expecting that aren't there ?
It's the third best film in the entire series for me...Classic Bond -{
Can't really forgive the "troubled production" and give QoS bonus sympathy points for that. Might as well give Thunderball bonus points for the pacing because it was "acceptable back in those days" or DAF more points because it had "Connery in it".
It's not bonus points: more that loads of films have production difficulties and to focus on that immediately draws attention to the flaws and dismisses the good stuff. Conversely, Skyfall's popularity was boosted by the fact that it was the fiftieth anniversary, which made audiences heap praise on it mainly because it referenced earlier films, and that it had been four years. If it had been released in 2010, there's no way it would have got the praise to the extent that it did, particularly from critics- and the focus on the 'emotions' and 'psychology' of Bond would not be treated as if it's a big innovation because we would have recently seen it in QoS and CR.
My feeling is that Spectre will surpass it and people will look back at Skyfall more critically.
As many on Bond forums are doing already. SF is a bit like GF - glamour over substance. One thing I really liked SF's script (not plot). But it's not just the script I don't like for QoS.
Fair enough points, which is exactly why I didn't follow SP production closely - I already failed by watching the trailer. But I don't know much more than what's shown in it.
You are right - the fact that much of the SF crew didn't leave England (ie didn't go to Shanghai), the crew wasn't actually at the abandoned island, etc, has made me more critical of the film. For SP I don't know when and where things were filmed, and what is and isn't CGI.
The script is straightforward - not really sure why you can't understand it ?:) same goes for the action....lots of it and it's frantic - very easy to follow though...
What 'Bond moments' were you expecting that aren't there ?
It's the third best film in the entire series for me...Classic Bond -{
Classic Bond. Cinematic or literary? 8-)
Script/plot is easy enough to follow, but I don't fully understand the emotional journey. His treatment of Mathis, "I never left" line, how he suddenly got the will to not shoot Yousef, and what events during QoS made him let the memory of Vesper go. Tanner says "not in the mood" to the analyst and 1 second later the analyst is doing the explaining. GB at end and the Q graphic over it, the title sequence, AWTD. The last few are nicpicks, but seriously, not much in QoS sits right. CR stirred the formula, QoS shook it vigorously, and perhaps you like it Shaken, not Stirred.
The action is a mess. At 31:35 the bad guys crash into a boat but it's not clear how that happened - did Bond veer in front or did they hit the other boats that Bond hit a few moments before. And at the end of the sequence, it's hard to see exactly how the boat managed to flip out of the water like that. I notice he put an anchor on the boat but that's it. I don't want to go through it frame by frame to see what/when/how it happened. I also don't need it drip fed, like in LALD. The action in CR/GE is a good blend for me.
That frenzied editing suits certain films. Not Bond. I watched Dr No on the weekend and I thought I'd be bored. Being Gen Y I hate slow pacing. I like how Young shows us putting his suits on, taking his shoes off when Sylvia is playing Golf, sniffing the opened vodka and exchanging it for a new bottle because he knew someone had been through his flat, Quarrel drinking rum before entering Crab Key. I don't see that attention to detail in Quantum. Or if it's there, it's blink and you miss. The detail is missing in most other entries (even FRWL) but other bits make up for it.
The CGI freefall - DAD all over again. Takes me right out of the realistic action/tone.
Sure, many Bond films are hardly masterpieces of cinema, but at least they have cool moments (action, music, script), and I'm listing these randomly from my favourite but also least favourite films. These are the things that would've got me hooked onto cinematic Bond as an average joe, not a Fleming/novel purist.
- Holding on to the top of a plane in mid air (OP)
- Fight on cargo nets at back of plane (TLD)
- Skydive (MR)
- Little Nellie (YOLT)
- Caviar factory (TWINE)
- Oddjob, Red Grant (Elvis is so memorable in comparison)
- "friend sits this one out, she's just dead"
- Car park chase (TND)
- Aston roll (CR) (can you imagine this or the TSWLM parachute jump shown from 100 different angles?)
- Croc stunt (LALD)
- The 'He's Dangerous' track (AVTAK)
Heck even Bond's walk through the airport in DN and him eating a grape in DAD.
There's nothing in QoS that captivates me. Here's the positives:
- The score in the PTS makes the chase more interesting
- Start of the opera scene and the score
- "She's seasick" and the lottery line.
- Craig, Craig, Craig
Anyway I'm rambling and probably not making much sense. Doing a Bondathon in the lead up to SP so will reach QoS in early November.
The script is straightforward - not really sure why you can't understand it ?:) same goes for the action....lots of it and it's frantic - very easy to follow though...
What 'Bond moments' were you expecting that aren't there ?
It's the third best film in the entire series for me...Classic Bond -{
...but I don't fully understand the emotional journey. His treatment of Mathis, "I never left" line, how he suddenly got the will to not shoot Yousef, and what events during QoS made him let the memory of Vesper go.
Ah...so it's something you lack/miss and not the film/script then
It's ALL there...in front of you...I guess you miss the 'subtleties'...but you aren't alone in that... -{
It's a minor thing and the old films are guilty of it too but the repetition in the script really bugs me (because there's no positives in the rest of the film to balance it out). "I need to know that I can trust you" is said almost word for word in CR. Trust is such an overused word starting from Brosnan.
"Get in. Get in" the Ford Ka
"Get in. Get. In." the taxi
"Get in. I said get in" the VW.
zzzzz...arrgh and the line is repeated in SF!
I always thought M's dialogue in the White interrogation scene sounded clumsy, maybe it's just me.
Ah...so it's something you lack/miss and not the film/script then
It's ALL there...in front of you...I guess you miss the 'subtleties'...but you aren't alone in that... -{
"I never miss" ) Ok maybe I do
Anyway it's not just the script. There's no glamour/escapism kind of moments, something that troubled me about CR on first viewing as well which I've changed my mind about.
It's a minor thing and the old films are guilty of it too but the repetition in the script really bugs me (because there's no positives in the rest of the film to balance it out). "I need to know that I can trust you" is said almost word for word in CR. Trust is such an overused word starting from Brosnan.
"Get in. Get in" the Ford Ka
"Get in. Get. In." the taxi
"Get in. I said get in" the VW.
zzzzz...arrgh and the line is repeated in SF!
I always thought M's dialogue in the White interrogation scene sounded clumsy, maybe it's just me.
Ah...so it's something you lack/miss and not the film/script then
It's ALL there...in front of you...I guess you miss the 'subtleties'...but you aren't alone in that... -{
"I never miss" ) Ok maybe I do
Anyway it's not just the script. There's no glamour/escapism kind of moments, something that troubled me about CR on first viewing as well which I've changed my mind about.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree...I would have loved another re-write of the script and a further 30 mins added - to help 'flesh' the script out more...QoS does pretty much everything it needs too though...I particularly like the 'breakneck' speed the movie moves at...we can all nitpick - I guess, for once, I prefer to revel in its many high points...the theme tune being one -{
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree...I would have loved another re-write of the script and a further 30 mins added - to help 'flesh' the script out more...QoS does pretty much everything it needs too though...I particularly like the 'breakneck' speed the movie moves at...we can all nitpick - I guess, for once, I prefer to revel in its many high points...the theme tune being one -{
Ahh, what could've been...
Too fast! For Bond films, I like to soak in the sights. What's the point in shooting in those locations if I can't see it? Someone made a good point in the FRWL Pros and cons thread that the film really made you feel like you were in Istanbul...the sights, and the music.
I've yet to sit through TB/YOLT/TSWLM etc so I may change my mind about pacing lol :P
The theme tune NOT being one. The main plus is the first four notes match YKMN's. I admit on repeated listening the tune itself is listenable. But the lyrics.......
"Another dirty money heaven sent honey turning on a dime" ?:) ?:) ?:)
At the end of the day, it's a Bond movie, and a Bond song. So :x it all.
many Bond films are hardly masterpieces of cinema, but at least they have cool moments (action, music, script), and I'm listing these randomly from my favourite but also least favourite films.
not sure if statements like this will get you many friends?!
"You see Mr.Bond, you can't kill my dreams...but my dreams can kill you.Time to face destiny" - "Time to face gravity"
The Books were written by a master craftsman, and are pretty much perfect. :x
The films were and are, being made by The finest craftsmen the film industry
has. :x I have loved the films and books since I was a boy, and will defend them
Always ! :x
If others chose to see faults or imperfections, that is of course their choice. I as
a lover, see no such imperfections.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
The Books were written by a master craftsman, and are pretty much perfect. :x
The films were and are, being made by The finest craftsmen the film industry
has. :x I have loved the films and books since I was a boy, and will defend them
Always ! :x
If others chose to see faults or imperfections, that is of course their choice. I as
a lover, see no such imperfections.
couldn't have said it better
but I may add that I don't accept the arguments about these "imperfections"
"You see Mr.Bond, you can't kill my dreams...but my dreams can kill you.Time to face destiny" - "Time to face gravity"
{[] There have been several threads on AJB, which I have not got involved
With, ( which is not like me, as I love discussing all things Bond), but I know
That it will lead to an argument, or some very angry words will be used. As I
Truly believe, some threads are started by some with little interest in Bond, they
Might have a passing interest in the films ........ but. I'll stop. As I don't wish to
Offend anyone, although I'm sure many long term fans must feel the same way.
OK, Rant over.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Script/plot is easy enough to follow, but I don't fully understand the emotional journey. His treatment of Mathis, "I never left" line, how he suddenly got the will to not shoot Yousef, and what events during QoS made him let the memory of Vesper go.
I think I understood it; Camille's emotional journey reflects Bond's own. He doesn't voice his emotions all the time but it's clear that there are things that she says and does that resonate with him. Bond can see that her revenge will never satisfy her and eventually realises that his own is futile too. He thinks that he is being powered and motivated by rage but he is actually being imprisoned by it. As a character from the earlier film, Mathis links Bond's dilemma back to the events of Casino Royale; he has to come to terms with the past fully in order to be able to let it go. When he finds Vesper's boyfriend, it ties off her mystery and dropping the necklace finally lets go of her for once and for all.
I think the 'I never left' line shows that the job is part of him; even if he leaves it, the job will not leave him. His ultimate loyalty is not to Vesper's memory but to the Secret Service.
Fierce creativity would be the perfect phrase. At first I was puzzled why they gave it to Marc Forster. He himself claimed he's not a big Bond fan and has only really watched Casino Royale '06. But in a sense, that also made him a great choice (because he could look at the series more objectively).
Fierce creativity would be the perfect phrase. At first I was puzzled why they gave it to Marc Forster. He himself claimed he's not a big Bond fan and has only really watched Casino Royale '06. But in a sense, that also made him a great choice (because he could look at the series more objectively).
And with Craig to work with, it made for a unique Bond affair! :007)
many Bond films are hardly masterpieces of cinema, but at least they have cool moments (action, music, script), and I'm listing these randomly from my favourite but also least favourite films.
not sure if statements like this will get you many friends?!
many Bond films are hardly masterpieces of cinema, but at least they have cool moments (action, music, script), and I'm listing these randomly from my favourite but also least favourite films.
not sure if statements like this will get you many friends?!
Comments
It's not bonus points: more that loads of films have production difficulties and to focus on that immediately draws attention to the flaws and dismisses the good stuff. Conversely, Skyfall's popularity was boosted by the fact that it was the fiftieth anniversary, which made audiences heap praise on it mainly because it referenced earlier films, and that it had been four years. If it had been released in 2010, there's no way it would have got the praise to the extent that it did, particularly from critics- and the focus on the 'emotions' and 'psychology' of Bond would not be treated as if it's a big innovation because we would have recently seen it in QoS and CR.
My feeling is that Spectre will surpass it and people will look back at Skyfall more critically.
The script is straightforward - not really sure why you can't understand it ?:) same goes for the action....lots of it and it's frantic - very easy to follow though...
What 'Bond moments' were you expecting that aren't there ?
It's the third best film in the entire series for me...Classic Bond -{
As many on Bond forums are doing already. SF is a bit like GF - glamour over substance. One thing I really liked SF's script (not plot). But it's not just the script I don't like for QoS.
Fair enough points, which is exactly why I didn't follow SP production closely - I already failed by watching the trailer. But I don't know much more than what's shown in it.
You are right - the fact that much of the SF crew didn't leave England (ie didn't go to Shanghai), the crew wasn't actually at the abandoned island, etc, has made me more critical of the film. For SP I don't know when and where things were filmed, and what is and isn't CGI.
Classic Bond. Cinematic or literary? 8-)
Script/plot is easy enough to follow, but I don't fully understand the emotional journey. His treatment of Mathis, "I never left" line, how he suddenly got the will to not shoot Yousef, and what events during QoS made him let the memory of Vesper go. Tanner says "not in the mood" to the analyst and 1 second later the analyst is doing the explaining. GB at end and the Q graphic over it, the title sequence, AWTD. The last few are nicpicks, but seriously, not much in QoS sits right. CR stirred the formula, QoS shook it vigorously, and perhaps you like it Shaken, not Stirred.
The action is a mess. At 31:35 the bad guys crash into a boat but it's not clear how that happened - did Bond veer in front or did they hit the other boats that Bond hit a few moments before. And at the end of the sequence, it's hard to see exactly how the boat managed to flip out of the water like that. I notice he put an anchor on the boat but that's it. I don't want to go through it frame by frame to see what/when/how it happened. I also don't need it drip fed, like in LALD. The action in CR/GE is a good blend for me.
That frenzied editing suits certain films. Not Bond. I watched Dr No on the weekend and I thought I'd be bored. Being Gen Y I hate slow pacing. I like how Young shows us putting his suits on, taking his shoes off when Sylvia is playing Golf, sniffing the opened vodka and exchanging it for a new bottle because he knew someone had been through his flat, Quarrel drinking rum before entering Crab Key. I don't see that attention to detail in Quantum. Or if it's there, it's blink and you miss. The detail is missing in most other entries (even FRWL) but other bits make up for it.
The CGI freefall - DAD all over again. Takes me right out of the realistic action/tone.
Sure, many Bond films are hardly masterpieces of cinema, but at least they have cool moments (action, music, script), and I'm listing these randomly from my favourite but also least favourite films. These are the things that would've got me hooked onto cinematic Bond as an average joe, not a Fleming/novel purist.
- Holding on to the top of a plane in mid air (OP)
- Fight on cargo nets at back of plane (TLD)
- Skydive (MR)
- Little Nellie (YOLT)
- Caviar factory (TWINE)
- Oddjob, Red Grant (Elvis is so memorable in comparison)
- "friend sits this one out, she's just dead"
- Car park chase (TND)
- Aston roll (CR) (can you imagine this or the TSWLM parachute jump shown from 100 different angles?)
- Croc stunt (LALD)
- The 'He's Dangerous' track (AVTAK)
Heck even Bond's walk through the airport in DN and him eating a grape in DAD.
There's nothing in QoS that captivates me. Here's the positives:
- The score in the PTS makes the chase more interesting
- Start of the opera scene and the score
- "She's seasick" and the lottery line.
- Craig, Craig, Craig
Anyway I'm rambling and probably not making much sense. Doing a Bondathon in the lead up to SP so will reach QoS in early November.
Both - obviously 8-)
Then why say it's an "incoherent mess" ?
Ah...so it's something you lack/miss and not the film/script then
It's ALL there...in front of you...I guess you miss the 'subtleties'...but you aren't alone in that... -{
It's a minor thing and the old films are guilty of it too but the repetition in the script really bugs me (because there's no positives in the rest of the film to balance it out). "I need to know that I can trust you" is said almost word for word in CR. Trust is such an overused word starting from Brosnan.
"Get in. Get in" the Ford Ka
"Get in. Get. In." the taxi
"Get in. I said get in" the VW.
zzzzz...arrgh and the line is repeated in SF!
I always thought M's dialogue in the White interrogation scene sounded clumsy, maybe it's just me.
Anyway some of these nitpicks are present in CR as well, Bond films aren't meant to be analysed deeply. I don't feel the whole emotional journey played out that well...see paragraph six of this blog for a humorous summary:
http://theincrediblesuit.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/blogalongabond-skyfall-review.html
As has been said to death, the writer's strike left the script incomplete. QoS could've been like CR. Maybe if they kept Stuart Baird as well.
"I never miss"
Anyway it's not just the script. There's no glamour/escapism kind of moments, something that troubled me about CR on first viewing as well which I've changed my mind about.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree...I would have loved another re-write of the script and a further 30 mins added - to help 'flesh' the script out more...QoS does pretty much everything it needs too though...I particularly like the 'breakneck' speed the movie moves at...we can all nitpick - I guess, for once, I prefer to revel in its many high points...the theme tune being one
Ahh, what could've been...
Too fast! For Bond films, I like to soak in the sights. What's the point in shooting in those locations if I can't see it? Someone made a good point in the FRWL Pros and cons thread that the film really made you feel like you were in Istanbul...the sights, and the music.
I've yet to sit through TB/YOLT/TSWLM etc so I may change my mind about pacing lol :P
The theme tune NOT being one. The main plus is the first four notes match YKMN's. I admit on repeated listening the tune itself is listenable. But the lyrics.......
"Another dirty money heaven sent honey turning on a dime" ?:) ?:) ?:)
At the end of the day, it's a Bond movie, and a Bond song. So :x it all.
Oh dear god - another one who hasn't finished them. Didn't we have this problem with Absolutelycart?
I do find it odd that on a Bond fan forum, you do get people who seem
To either dislike the films or have very little regard for them.
Yeah. Like I always say. Some of the films do have their faults, but the good always outweighs the bad
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
The Books were written by a master craftsman, and are pretty much perfect. :x
The films were and are, being made by The finest craftsmen the film industry
has. :x I have loved the films and books since I was a boy, and will defend them
Always ! :x
If others chose to see faults or imperfections, that is of course their choice. I as
a lover, see no such imperfections.
couldn't have said it better
but I may add that I don't accept the arguments about these "imperfections"
With, ( which is not like me, as I love discussing all things Bond), but I know
That it will lead to an argument, or some very angry words will be used. As I
Truly believe, some threads are started by some with little interest in Bond, they
Might have a passing interest in the films ........ but. I'll stop. As I don't wish to
Offend anyone, although I'm sure many long term fans must feel the same way.
OK, Rant over.
I think I understood it; Camille's emotional journey reflects Bond's own. He doesn't voice his emotions all the time but it's clear that there are things that she says and does that resonate with him. Bond can see that her revenge will never satisfy her and eventually realises that his own is futile too. He thinks that he is being powered and motivated by rage but he is actually being imprisoned by it. As a character from the earlier film, Mathis links Bond's dilemma back to the events of Casino Royale; he has to come to terms with the past fully in order to be able to let it go. When he finds Vesper's boyfriend, it ties off her mystery and dropping the necklace finally lets go of her for once and for all.
I think the 'I never left' line shows that the job is part of him; even if he leaves it, the job will not leave him. His ultimate loyalty is not to Vesper's memory but to the Secret Service.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Honestly, I enjoy DAD more than CR or SF, but QOS rules for me, at least until SP comes out.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
To agree with you up to a point, I enjoy Brosnan in DAD more than I enjoy Craig in CR or SF (or QoS).
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Rephrase: I've watched then in full. I haven't watched them on my current bondathon yet
Well my comments got misinterpreted fast :-S :-(
Defend the films I've loved for the majority of my life.