I realise that. I would not like to meet James Bond in person if he was a real human being, any more than I would like to meet Hannibal Lecter, Rambo, the Terminator or many other very entertaining fictional characters. I do enjoy the situations that they find themselves in for one reason or another - that's what I like about Bond films.
Silva is a man who uses technology to get done whatever he wants to get done. But he's not the villain because he's a cyberterrorist. No, he's the villain because he apparently wants revenge on M for deserting him. And yet, it's later revealed that he wants to die along with her. Which happens anyway, as Bond kills Silva by throwing a knife to his back, and M dies from a bullet wound.
So, in the end, Silva got what he wanted. Bond didn't stop that from happening. The difference was that they didn't die from Silva's bullet.
Just putting this out there.
"Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later
Non-fans will forget it, but fans will keep it as part of the broader context of the Craig era probably more importantly over time - especially because of the death of M and introduction of "Bond is back" elements near the end of the film and how it moves into SP.
Non-fans will forget it, but fans will keep it as part of the broader context of the Craig era probably more importantly over time - especially because of the death of M and introduction of "Bond is back" elements near the end of the film and how it moves into SP.
Yes, although both films are quite different in tone.
This despite the fact that they share the same director.
Then again, GE and CR are very different films and also shared the same director.
"Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later
My biggest LOL from Mendes is that in SF Q makes that remark about exploding pens, then in SP the loud watch alarm... ) ) ) ) )
Irony of ironies indeed.
"Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later
I just didn't like it. I found myself looking at my watch a couple of times during it. Which is never a good thing whilst in the cinema as far as I am concerned.
I just felt there was nothing really there to hold my interest.
I would say the classics are:
DN
FRWL
GF
TB
OHMSS
LALD
TLD
LTK
GE
CR
But that's just my opinion
We all have our opinions, I think that's why we are here. I agree with most of your choices (especially the Connery films) except for the Dalton 'Bond' films. The films (plot/dialogue) themselves I think are OK but Dalton as Bond spoils it for me; he's just not convincing.
I totally agree re: Skyfall: it's not a classic (far from it), except for the introduction of Eve Moneypenny (she is stunning) and the song 'Skyfall' (not on the soundtrack X-( ) but film wise I still put CR ahead. And as in some Bond films the shoot out (ending) scene seemed to go on forever, the same in the abandoned Island in Macau. As for cyberterroism; I think I can wake up and smell the coffee
Casino Royale I thought was an excellent film, and to compare this and Skyfall my opinion is CR would win hands down based on dialogue alone.
"Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974; It's a scientific fact". - Homer J Simpson
There's no denying that Bardem played Silva brilliantly, but it's his intentions that weaken him as a villain for me.
Plus, as I mentioned earlier, he won in SF, and Bond lost. Silva got what he wanted, while Bond couldn't stop M from dying.
And it's not like we hate Silva or anything (although killing Severine in cold blood was brutal). We pity him because once we learn of his inability to get over the fact that M betrayed him, we don't fear him anymore.
And I like to fear or have some sick admiration for my villains. It's why I love Scaramanga, Goldfinger, and Pleasence's Blofeld so much. They have that impact on me, and I don't pity them.
With Trevelyan, I get that he's seeking to avenge his parents, but I don't pity him because causing a global financial meltdown is not cool.
"Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later
2...Why not have an Army waiting at Skyfall for them to take out Silva and his henchmen.
Apart from this it's still class.
I had trouble with those points when I first saw the film as well, but having watched it many times it doesn't bother me as much because -
Bond doesn't save M because one of the main themes of the film (and Craigs role in the reboot) is that he's not the superman of the old series, so he makes mistakes and gets physically and emotionally hurt - as the Fleming's character did in the novels. Also, they were attempting to return indirectly to the old format of series which is why they introduced the HQ staff (Q, Moneypenney) and have a new M who is man. Of course, they could have had Bond save her and she would have just retired (and that would have been fine with me), but this would not have been as dramatic. The critics love this type of melodrama (as well as the actors enjoy playing it) so I understand why they went with that ending. It's not what they would have done in the old series but it's notably the type of dark circumstances that Fleming would have written.
As far as having an army waiting for Silva or having Bond being better equipped, it took me a few viewings to see why that didn't happen (if you follow the internal logic of the script) because the whole plan was officially unauthorized. Bond has Q make it so Silva can find Bond, then Q and Tanner go along with Bond's plan (which he made up basically on the run after saving M) even though they mention how it could cost them their jobs for participating in it. Fiennes overhears them and authorizes Bond's plan because as a former field agent he agrees with it even though he knows his superiors would not - so he could also lose his job. This is why they could not have an army waiting at Skyfall - the plan was not sanctioned. Bond (again going with the internal logic of the script) wasn't better armed because he grabbed M, got the Aston and sped up to Skyfall.
Scene:
M: What are you doing?
Q: We're just... monitoring.
M: Creating a false tracking signal for Silva to follow.
Q: Well, sir, um... Well, no.
Excellent thinking. Get him isolated. Send him on the A9. It's the direct route.
You can monitor his progress more accurately and confirm it with the traffic cameras.
Tanner (or Q?) But what if the PM finds out?
M: Then we're all buggered.
Why didn't he have more weapons in his storage garage? Probably because stashing a cache of weapons is not something the character would do based on his history. In the novels Bond only armed himself with items he would use in personal combat - his pistol, throwing knife, steel capped shoes. Also, the Aston itself was still armed and he did use it in the attack. He knew Silva would find out where he would end up and he had to get there and be ready for when Silva would show up. He also believed his father's gun collection and ammunition were still at Skyfall and would still be available to him, which is why he would not stop at a gun store to buy any (even though he's licensed to own firearms). He also probably assumed Silva would only show up with a few henchman - not in a helicopter gunship.
They could have had Bond hide in the Aston until the ground crew of goons showed up and then sped off at them while they were approaching the house on foot and mowed them down with the Aston's guns as he chased them over the fields. Not sure how that would have looked cinematically though.
2...Why not have an Army waiting at Skyfall for them to take out Silva and his henchmen.
Apart from this it's still class.
I had trouble with those points when I first saw the film as well, but having watched it many times it doesn't bother me as much because -
Bond doesn't save M because one of the main themes of the film (and Craigs role in the reboot) is that he's not the superman of the old series, so he makes mistakes and gets physically and emotionally hurt - as the Fleming's character did in the novels. Also, they were attempting to return indirectly to the old format of series which is why they introduced the HQ staff (Q, Moneypenney) and have a new M who is man. Of course, they could have had Bond save her and she would have just retired (and that would have been fine with me), but this would not have been as dramatic. The critics love this type of melodrama (as well as the actors enjoy playing it) so I understand why they went with that ending. It's not what they would have done in the old series but it's notably the type of dark circumstances that Fleming would have written.
As far as having an army waiting for Silva or having Bond being better equipped, it took me a few viewings to see why that didn't happen (if you follow the internal logic of the script) because the whole plan was officially unauthorized. Bond has Q make it so Silva can find Bond, then Q and Tanner go along with Bond's plan (which he made up basically on the run after saving M) even though they mention how it could cost them their jobs for participating in it. Fiennes overhears them and authorizes Bond's plan because as a former field agent he agrees with it even though he knows his superiors would not - so he could also lose his job. This is why they could not have an army waiting at Skyfall - the plan was not sanctioned. Bond (again going with the internal logic of the script) wasn't better armed because he grabbed M, got the Aston and sped up to Skyfall.
Scene:
M: What are you doing?
Q: We're just... monitoring.
M: Creating a false tracking signal for Silva to follow.
Q: Well, sir, um... Well, no.
Excellent thinking. Get him isolated. Send him on the A9. It's the direct route.
You can monitor his progress more accurately and confirm it with the traffic cameras.
Tanner (or Q?) But what if the PM finds out?
M: Then we're all buggered.
Why didn't he have more weapons in his storage garage? Probably because stashing a cache of weapons is not something the character would do based on his history. In the novels Bond only armed himself with items he would use in personal combat - his pistol, throwing knife, steel capped shoes. Also, the Aston itself was still armed and he did use it in the attack. He knew Silva would find out where he would end up and he had to get there and be ready for when Silva would show up. He also believed his father's gun collection and ammunition were still at Skyfall and would still be available to him, which is why he would not stop at a gun store to buy any (even though he's licensed to own firearms). He also probably assumed Silva would only show up with a few henchman - not in a helicopter gunship.
They could have had Bond hide in the Aston until the ground crew of goons showed up and then sped off at them while they were approaching the house on foot and mowed them down with the Aston's guns as he chased them over the fields. Not sure how that would have looked cinematically though.
"Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later
Why didn't he have more weapons in his storage garage? Probably because stashing a cache of weapons is not something the character would do based on his history.
Nay, they were all "sold to a collector from Idaho or some such place".
"I'm afraid I'm a complicated woman. "
"- That is something to be afraid of."
Just watched Skyfall again recently and I have to say that it is absolutely a classic. Sure it's not perfect, but which Bond film is? All bar maybe one or 2 have their niggles, and whilst this has a few (plot holes and such) it's just a brilliant bit of film making. I really love it more and more every time I see it. Great Villian, Great Bond, Great performaces and cast, awesome pre-title seqeunce, brilliant titles and title song, amazing cinematography and imagery, an emotionally engaging story (a rarity for a Bond film) and some outstanding scenes (The entire Shanghai sequence, Silva's intro, plus the following scenes on the island, and the tube chase are all standouts). For me Skyfall, as well as Casino Royale, are both standout classics of the series. The disappointing Spectre served to highlight just how rare a classic Bond film is these days, and makes Skyfall look even better in comparison. Top 6 of all time for me ) )
All bar maybe one or 2 have their niggles, and whilst this has a few (plot holes and such) it's just a brilliant bit of film making.
The film does have elements that are the best in the series (acting, production, direction etc.) and some awesome sequences, exactly the ones you mention. But as you say, I find the plot holes you mention a little too high up on the niggle list to let it slide. Like SP, the storyline gets bogged-down by itself.
That said, including yourself there seems to be quite a few fans here, growing too...
When gauging the magnitude of a films impact or legacy its helpful for me to hear the thoughts from this board, but also equally important is the thoughts of the people in my life who are not massively obsessed Bond fans with vast knowledge of the character like we are. Because naturally they offer up a less critical perspective that isn't enveloped by the knowledge we have of Bond, Fleming, etc. and it doesn't really influence my own opinion but gives me a good snapshot of how a films viewed. That said, Skyfall has been out for four years now and everyone from my closest friends to family and extended family ages from 14-65 consider it the best Bond film of all time along with some of Connery films. So it may not be considered a classic in time but it will probably be remembered as a benchmark film in the series.
Comments
I realise that. I would not like to meet James Bond in person if he was a real human being, any more than I would like to meet Hannibal Lecter, Rambo, the Terminator or many other very entertaining fictional characters. I do enjoy the situations that they find themselves in for one reason or another - that's what I like about Bond films.
^ This ^
Silva is a man who uses technology to get done whatever he wants to get done. But he's not the villain because he's a cyberterrorist. No, he's the villain because he apparently wants revenge on M for deserting him. And yet, it's later revealed that he wants to die along with her. Which happens anyway, as Bond kills Silva by throwing a knife to his back, and M dies from a bullet wound.
So, in the end, Silva got what he wanted. Bond didn't stop that from happening. The difference was that they didn't die from Silva's bullet.
Just putting this out there.
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later
"Better make that two."
Yes, although both films are quite different in tone.
This despite the fact that they share the same director.
Then again, GE and CR are very different films and also shared the same director.
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Irony of ironies indeed.
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later
We all have our opinions, I think that's why we are here. I agree with most of your choices (especially the Connery films) except for the Dalton 'Bond' films. The films (plot/dialogue) themselves I think are OK but Dalton as Bond spoils it for me; he's just not convincing.
I totally agree re: Skyfall: it's not a classic (far from it), except for the introduction of Eve Moneypenny (she is stunning) and the song 'Skyfall' (not on the soundtrack X-( ) but film wise I still put CR ahead. And as in some Bond films the shoot out (ending) scene seemed to go on forever, the same in the abandoned Island in Macau. As for cyberterroism; I think I can wake up and smell the coffee
Casino Royale I thought was an excellent film, and to compare this and Skyfall my opinion is CR would win hands down based on dialogue alone.
Plus, as I mentioned earlier, he won in SF, and Bond lost. Silva got what he wanted, while Bond couldn't stop M from dying.
And it's not like we hate Silva or anything (although killing Severine in cold blood was brutal). We pity him because once we learn of his inability to get over the fact that M betrayed him, we don't fear him anymore.
And I like to fear or have some sick admiration for my villains. It's why I love Scaramanga, Goldfinger, and Pleasence's Blofeld so much. They have that impact on me, and I don't pity them.
With Trevelyan, I get that he's seeking to avenge his parents, but I don't pity him because causing a global financial meltdown is not cool.
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later
I think Trevelyan is a weak villain, and the financial storyline is dull.
"Better make that two."
1...Bond tries to protect M and gets her killed.
2...Why not have an Army waiting at Skyfall for them to take out Silva and his henchmen.
Apart from this it's still class.
I had trouble with those points when I first saw the film as well, but having watched it many times it doesn't bother me as much because -
Bond doesn't save M because one of the main themes of the film (and Craigs role in the reboot) is that he's not the superman of the old series, so he makes mistakes and gets physically and emotionally hurt - as the Fleming's character did in the novels. Also, they were attempting to return indirectly to the old format of series which is why they introduced the HQ staff (Q, Moneypenney) and have a new M who is man. Of course, they could have had Bond save her and she would have just retired (and that would have been fine with me), but this would not have been as dramatic. The critics love this type of melodrama (as well as the actors enjoy playing it) so I understand why they went with that ending. It's not what they would have done in the old series but it's notably the type of dark circumstances that Fleming would have written.
As far as having an army waiting for Silva or having Bond being better equipped, it took me a few viewings to see why that didn't happen (if you follow the internal logic of the script) because the whole plan was officially unauthorized. Bond has Q make it so Silva can find Bond, then Q and Tanner go along with Bond's plan (which he made up basically on the run after saving M) even though they mention how it could cost them their jobs for participating in it. Fiennes overhears them and authorizes Bond's plan because as a former field agent he agrees with it even though he knows his superiors would not - so he could also lose his job. This is why they could not have an army waiting at Skyfall - the plan was not sanctioned. Bond (again going with the internal logic of the script) wasn't better armed because he grabbed M, got the Aston and sped up to Skyfall.
Scene:
M: What are you doing?
Q: We're just... monitoring.
M: Creating a false tracking signal for Silva to follow.
Q: Well, sir, um... Well, no.
Excellent thinking. Get him isolated. Send him on the A9. It's the direct route.
You can monitor his progress more accurately and confirm it with the traffic cameras.
Tanner (or Q?) But what if the PM finds out?
M: Then we're all buggered.
Why didn't he have more weapons in his storage garage? Probably because stashing a cache of weapons is not something the character would do based on his history. In the novels Bond only armed himself with items he would use in personal combat - his pistol, throwing knife, steel capped shoes. Also, the Aston itself was still armed and he did use it in the attack. He knew Silva would find out where he would end up and he had to get there and be ready for when Silva would show up. He also believed his father's gun collection and ammunition were still at Skyfall and would still be available to him, which is why he would not stop at a gun store to buy any (even though he's licensed to own firearms). He also probably assumed Silva would only show up with a few henchman - not in a helicopter gunship.
They could have had Bond hide in the Aston until the ground crew of goons showed up and then sped off at them while they were approaching the house on foot and mowed them down with the Aston's guns as he chased them over the fields. Not sure how that would have looked cinematically though.
Fair points excellently made.
CR is my least fave of the Craig 007s, sorry.
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later
Nay, they were all "sold to a collector from Idaho or some such place".
"- That is something to be afraid of."
The film does have elements that are the best in the series (acting, production, direction etc.) and some awesome sequences, exactly the ones you mention. But as you say, I find the plot holes you mention a little too high up on the niggle list to let it slide. Like SP, the storyline gets bogged-down by itself.
That said, including yourself there seems to be quite a few fans here, growing too...
"Better make that two."
That about sums it up for me too.