"Definitely distinctive" Tiffany Case - the movie or the novel?

broadshoulder

"Tiffany Case? Definitely distinctive."
"I was born there - on the third floor.."

Someone actually born at Tiffany's? There are big differences between Miss St Johns portrayal and the character from the novel. I am not biased but find the novel quite hard work. It deviates into long monologues about the gem trade and American gangsters are pretty insipid. But the character of Tiffany Case perks the novel up.

She's a neurotic from hell. Bond imagines her trying "Sure. Come ahead and try. But, brother, you'd better be good". She's a tough girl, but underneath this wall of ice is a lonely insecure lonely woman. On their second meeting she flat out tells him that she isn't going to sleep with him, and later she kisses him hard on the lips saying "She doesn't want to lose him" She confuses the hell out of Bond.

Fleming goes into her backstory. She had a hard life and her mother ran the biggest whorehouse in San Fran and one day decided not to pay the local gangs protection money. The group raided the house and raped Tiffany. Leiter assumes this is why the girl doesn't want anything to do with men.

Interesting that Bond actually has a relationship while in London

I suppose the key to the movies character was her "cockiness". Miss St John is a redhead while the literary Tiffany is a blonde. Ms John has the right amount of chutzpah for the movie. Shes good with the humour and provides a good foil for 007. Being Sean Connerys squeeze certainly helped (and Lana Wood)

So which one the neurotic one of the book or the self confident of Jill St John? Me? Despite a love for Jills Tiffany I think it has to be the literary one..

Thunderpussy

Agreed {[] , I never cared for the film Tiffany. She starts of as a strong
Lady but decends into " Mary Goodnight" levels of helplessness.
The well know quote of how instead of playing it as. Lauren Bacall, she
Played it more like Lucille Ball. )

AlphaOmegaSin

I've always preferred the Literary Version as well. Her cold and unwilling Personality makes for a very interesting Character. I also think that she is one of the best female Acomplaces that Fleming ever created -{

Absolutely_Cart

I haven't read the book, but Tiffany Case in DAF was awful (and I blame the writers more than the actress herself). After progressive women character (for 60's standards) like Galore and Tracy, Case was a big step backward.

AlphaOmegaSin

She's a constant Charecter up until she gets captured by Blofeld. Then she becomes a bumbling Idiot.

Matt S

Absolutely_Cart wrote:

I haven't read the book, but Tiffany Case in DAF was awful (and I blame the writers more than the actress herself). After progressive women character (for 60's standards) like Galore and Tracy, Case was a big step backward.

I'd put much more of the blame on Jill St. John than the writers. Tracy wasn't such a progressive character. She saves Bond at the ice rink, but most of the film is Bond saving her. Don't confuse Tracy with the very progressive Emma Peel.

Silhouette Man

AlphaOmegaSin wrote:

She's a constant Charecter up until she gets captured by Blofeld. Then she becomes a bumbling Idiot.

Exactly how I feel about it. the whole film goes off the rails plot- and character-wise by that point sadly making it one of the lesser Bond films in my book.

AlphaOmegaSin

I bet Bond was appreciative of her going 'Eugh!' When he was attacked by Wint and Kidd )

Silhouette Man

AlphaOmegaSin wrote:

I bet Bond was appreciative of her going 'Eugh!' When he was attacked by Wint and Kidd )

Yes, about as useful as Mary Goodnight! )

broadshoulder

To be honest I dont see how you could do literary Tiffany in this post-Goldfinger effort. The girl got good lines and handled the humour well. I particularly like her opening scene

I particularly like Jill St John as she brandishes her fist at all those who denigrate the Bonds girls..

hehadlotsofguts

I prefer the first half of the film. "Keep leaning on that tooter Charlie and you're gonna get a shot in the mouth!" It's sassy lines from her that make the first half of the film enjoyable to watch.

AlphaOmegaSin

I don't think anyone else other then Jill St John could of played her.

CmdrAtticus

Jane Fonda or Faye Dunaway would have been good, but neither would have taken the role once they read how ditsy the character degenerates into the third act. Had the film been made during the 50's, Lauren Bacall would have been perfect. I always pictured her when I read the novel.

Barbel

Thunderpussy wrote:

The well know quote of how instead of playing it as. Lauren Bacall, she
Played it more like Lucille Ball. )

It's from John Brosnan's "James Bond In the Cinema", the first of its kind and still one of the best.

Gassy Man

Matt S wrote:

Absolutely_Cart wrote:

I haven't read the book, but Tiffany Case in DAF was awful (and I blame the writers more than the actress herself). After progressive women character (for 60's standards) like Galore and Tracy, Case was a big step backward.

I'd put much more of the blame on Jill St. John than the writers. Tracy wasn't such a progressive character. She saves Bond at the ice rink, but most of the film is Bond saving her. Don't confuse Tracy with the very progressive Emma Peel.

I'd say Tracy was pretty progressive, in everything from her initial rebuff of Bond to finally bedding him but on her terms to her forcing her father's hand to saving Bond, driving and otherwise, to her fight with Grunther. In fact, it isn't until she's knocked out that she relents wanting to help Bond. But then I find the 60s Bond women to be more progressive and Flemingesque than the ones that followed.

In terms of Jill St. John, she's enough like the character in the novel for me to accept her, but even if she wasn't, I'm fine with her turn as Tiffany Case. She's got moxie, but she's a smuggler, not a commando. I perfectly believe she would find a way to cozy up to the villain to avoid a fight. And I think after the heaviness of the previous film, they wanted someone much lighter.

broadshoulder

I like the Lauren Bacall idea. She really fits the character...

Charmed & Dangerous

In general the heroines from the novels work better than their movie counterparts, and Tiffany is no exception. Only Diana Rigg's Tracey feels as well characterised on film as on the page, IMO.

0073

Thunderpussy wrote:

Agreed {[] , I never cared for the film Tiffany. She starts of as a strong
Lady but decends into " Mary Goodnight" levels of helplessness.
The well know quote of how instead of playing it as. Lauren Bacall, she
Played it more like Lucille Ball. )

Agreed, Tiffany Case and Mary Goodnight are IMHO the two least appealing Bond girls in the history of the franchise. Bond Girl should never be inconsequential, helpless or boring. I prefer the way May Day breaks "the Bond Girl" mold over these "Oh James!!!!!!" distraught "ladies" any day of the week and twice on sundays!

Silhouette Man

Barbel wrote:

Thunderpussy wrote:

The well know quote of how instead of playing it as. Lauren Bacall, she
Played it more like Lucille Ball. )

It's from John Brosnan's "James Bond In the Cinema", the first of its kind and still one of the best.

Agreed, that is an excellent book and it is a joy to read. -{

AlphaOmegaSin

0073 wrote:

Thunderpussy wrote:

Agreed {[] , I never cared for the film Tiffany. She starts of as a strong
Lady but decends into " Mary Goodnight" levels of helplessness.
The well know quote of how instead of playing it as. Lauren Bacall, she
Played it more like Lucille Ball. )

Agreed, Tiffany Case and Mary Goodnight are IMHO the two least appealing Bond girls in the history of the franchise. Bond Girl should never be inconsequential, helpless or boring. I prefer the way May Day breaks "the Bond Girl" mold over these "Oh James!!!!!!" distraught "ladies" any day of the week and twice on sundays!

Goodnights Charecter fit the Films Tone

The Wicker Man

0073 wrote:

Thunderpussy wrote:

Agreed {[] , I never cared for the film Tiffany. She starts of as a strong
Lady but decends into " Mary Goodnight" levels of helplessness.
The well know quote of how instead of playing it as. Lauren Bacall, she
Played it more like Lucille Ball. )

Agreed, Tiffany Case and Mary Goodnight are IMHO the two least appealing Bond girls in the history of the franchise. Bond Girl should never be inconsequential, helpless or boring. I prefer the way May Day breaks "the Bond Girl" mold over these "Oh James!!!!!!" distraught "ladies" any day of the week and twice on sundays!

+1 Correct -{

superado

I'm deeply attracted to Jill St. John and enjoyed looking at her in DAF, but yes, she is an inferior Tiffany vs. the book version. As messed up as the literary Tiffany was, she was one of the better developed Bond girls, character-wise along with Domino and versus the personalities of Honey, Tatiana and even Tracy. Someone mentioned in this thread how Tiffany was very Lauren Bacall-like (whose biography I read as a teenager) and coincidentally after doing a mini-Bogart marathon a couple of years ago I too was reminded of Tiffany through Ms. Bacall's persona.

I still wonder about Fleming's obsession with neurotic girls, because in the different biographies about him, none of the women that have been linked to him were described as overtly neurotic even in passing. Maybe it was an attractive trait for him, though he stopped short of actually pursuing a relationship with a girl plagued with the blues?

AlphaOmegaSin

In the Book, we read about how she grew to become suspicious of
Men. This Trait is sort of Present in her Film Counterpart.

broadshoulder

AlphaOmegaSin wrote:

In the Book, we read about how she grew to become suspicious of
Men. This Trait is sort of Present in her Film Counterpart.

They were doing Diamonds as a new comedy - the last vestiges of Lazenby were to be swept away.Maibaum wrote her as a comedy character - not a heavy duty feminist

I hope Flemings reliance on 'neurotic' women continues. I did enjoy Severines contribution.. I see her in that tradition..

AlphaOmegaSin

Yes, an attempt to get over the Lazenby Hangover.

Gassy Man

superado wrote:

I'm deeply attracted to Jill St. John and enjoyed looking at her in DAF, but yes, she is an inferior Tiffany vs. the book version. As messed up as the literary Tiffany was, she was one of the better developed Bond girls, character-wise along with Domino and versus the personalities of Honey, Tatiana and even Tracy. Someone mentioned in this thread how Tiffany was very Lauren Bacall-like (whose biography I read as a teenager) and coincidentally after doing a mini-Bogart marathon a couple of years ago I too was reminded of Tiffany through Ms. Bacall's persona.

I still wonder about Fleming's obsession with neurotic girls, because in the different biographies about him, none of the women that have been linked to him were described as overtly neurotic even in passing. Maybe it was an attractive trait for him, though he stopped short of actually pursuing a relationship with a girl plagued with the blues?

I think it may come from two places. First, Fleming was raised and lived during a time when women in general were thought to be emotionally unstable -- we get the term "hysteria" in part from this, with one of the early forms of treating it being a hysterectomy.

More than that, though, it was easier to feature women who are emotionally unstable in some way because they are both wounded (and thus eliciting ours and Bond's sympathies) and capable of quick, perhaps questionable actions, like falling in love right away or bedding Bond out of a misplaced sense of power, gratitude, revenge, insecurity, or whatever -- it became a crutch to shorthand the reasons why the female characters did what they did.

chrisisall

Oh, face it. Women are just messed-up little children grown up looking for a 'good' Daddy or Mommy to take care of them & tell them what to do.
Kind of like men.
)

AlphaOmegaSin

I was once told that Women are like Buses )