The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

Silhouette Man

I thought I would create a new thread on one of my interests outside of all things James Bond - the field of Law. As some of you may know I have a Masters degree in Law and from that my interest blossomed. I am sadly not a Law practitioner as yet but I retain the interest in current and historical legal issues.

So this thread is the place to discuss Legal Issues of the past or present on any area of English Law (or if you prefer US Law) and beyond.

Let's get the ball rolling...

[18 March 2016 Thread Update]

I've amended the thread title to include Criminal Justice as part of the thread so that members can give their thoughts or issue their criticisms or indeed praise of the criminal justice system in the UK. This includes the decisions of the courts in criminal cases, the penal system, criminal law legislation and case law and new proposals for reform of the criminal law by the UK Government of the day.

Thunderpussy

Just to get the ball rolling ( as Indiana Jones, would say )
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1568475/Ten-stupidest-laws-are-named.html
And in a light hearted manner.
Ten Stupidest UK laws.
1. It is illegal to die in the Houses of Parliament (27%)
2. It is an act of treason to place a postage stamp bearing the British monarch upside-down (7%)
3. In Liverpool, it is illegal for a woman to be topless except as a clerk in a tropical fish store (6%)
4. Mince pies cannot be eaten on Christmas Day (5%)
5. In Scotland, if someone knocks on your door and requires the use of your toilet, you must let them enter (4%)
6. In the UK a pregnant woman can legally relieve herself anywhere she wants, including in a policeman's helmet (4%)
7. The head of any dead whale found on the British coast automatically becomes the property of the King, and the tail of the Queen (3.5%)
8. It is illegal not to tell the tax man anything you do not want him to know, but legal not to tell him information you do not mind him knowing (3%)
9. It is illegal to enter the Houses of Parliament in a suit of armour
10. In the city of York it is legal to murder a Scotsman within the ancient city walls, but only if he is carrying a bow and arrow (2%)

Higgins

Thunderpussy wrote:

3. In Liverpool, it is illegal for a woman to be topless except as a clerk in a tropical fish store (6%)

Can someone please make a list of the Liverpool tropical fish stores so that I am having this handy on my next visit?

Thunderpussy

)
I'm just worried for Barbel if he ever visits York !

welshboy78

So what would REALLY happen if number 10 was carried out?

Thunderpussy

There'd probably be a fine of some sort.

Thunderbird 2

Thunderpussy wrote:

)
I'm just worried for Barbel if he ever visits York !

Thanks very much Pussy - what about me?!

Thunderpussy

I never knew you were Scottish TB2.
I always thought it was only Sir Sean, Barbel and Alec Salmond ..... As
You never see them together ? )

Thunderbird 2

I knew you weren't paying attention in the Skyfall thread about Bond and M-Manf's long journey driving to Skyfall Lodge. Mind you, you were opening The SABS at that time. Along with the beer, wine, sherry, scotch, gin, vodka and ginger raspberry.

Yes, I lived near the A9 for a few years at my Grandparents house in Pitlochry. Gran, Grandad and Mum, (may they rest in peace) were all big Bond fans, esp my Grandad. Originally from a spot almost as remote as Bonds family home further North East.

Back to the point - considering my Dad is a train fanatic and the National Railway Museum is in York, I'm stuffed!

Thunderpussy

) Sorry TB2, wasn't paying attention.
( I'b be in the cellars of the SBS, for some correction later ..... No pressure )
I often wondered if any policeman has been asked by a pregnant lady to
Use his hat in an emergency ?

Ornithologist

Fellow lawyer here. Can't contribute much on the subject of English law, but heard about a case once (probably an urban legend) of a guy who filed a claim against Oxford (or Cambridge) university because according to some medieval law they had to provide him with two pints of beer per day. Their response was that they would certainly fulfill his request for beer delivery retroactively, under the condition that he served his time in the dungeon for attending lectures unarmed...

Always liked that one, legend or not {[]

Silhouette Man

Link to an interesting article from the Oxford Royale Academy:

"The Massively Outdated Offences Against the Person Act 1861 Shows How Well the Common Law System Works"

https://www.oxford-royale.co.uk/articles/offences-against-the-person-act-1861-needs-reform.html

Loeffelholz

2015 has been a year of resolving legal issues for me---most prominently a divorce; for a couple of years full ownership of my fictional character, Oscar Jade, and revenue from existing and future works featuring him, was up in the air, with my ex-wife angling for a 50% share

I told my ex that if such a condition were made a part of the final marital settlement, she would have accomplished what the New York mob tried and failed to do in "Blood & Ashes": killing him off

Fortunately, things have been amicably settled, and he belongs to me 100% -{

Thunderpussy

Not wanting to go into anyone's personal life, so this is just a general statement.
I've always been amazed at some of the payout's some people get after a marriage
or long relationship. When they had no part in the enterprise undertaken by their
Partner. Like Heather Mills and Paul McCartney.
Speaking as a bloke, I think it can be a little unfair, but understand many ladies
probably think it is a very fair system.

welshboy78

Im always staggered by some of the zillionaire celebs child support maintenance - hundred grand a month etc

Thats a lot of iPads / Nintendos lol

Silhouette Man

Interesting reading; many famous cases from English law feature:

https://www.oxford-royale.co.uk/articles/interesting-legal-cases.html

Silhouette Man

Justice or Just Us:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weicePC7R00

Silhouette Man

The UK Supreme Court overrules two previous precedents (one from thirty years ago) on the "joint enterprise" rule in the law on murder:

http://ukscblog.com/new-judgment-r-v-jogee-ruddock-v-the-queen-jamaica-2016-uksc-8/

Thunderpussy

Ancient law :

In ancient Rome a rapist would have his testicals crushed between two heavy marble slabs !
......... Seems sensible to me, they should reintroduce that. -{

Silhouette Man

Thunderpussy wrote:

Ancient law :

In ancient Rome a rapist would have his testicals crushed between two heavy marble slabs !
......... Seems sensible to me, they should reintroduce that. -{

Yes, and I recall that the villain General Brutus 'Brute' Clay (in his planned fascist takeover of the United States) called for the cutting off the the offending organ for the rapist too (presciently rather like Sharia law in a way) in John Gardner's last James Bond continuation novel Cold/Cold Fall (1996). That's probably why he was named Brutus then.

IanT

Rapists and sex offenders are, in my opinion, the worst sort of criminal. A victim of murder has to suffer no more (granted the family suffer) but the victims of rape and sex offences remain emotionally destroyed and scarred for life.

There is no punishment severe enough (within the bounds of the law) for those animals.

Grindelwald

I'm thinking of scaring someone who ripped me off 1500$ , should I insiniuate that some of my buddies ought to pay him a visit ?

I know for a fact that a celeb is going after this person due to autograph forgeries (he writes this on his fb)

Silhouette Man

The NI 'gay cake' case reaches the UK Supreme Court:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoHl5JRjpX4

Thunderpussy

I love all cakes, either Gay or Straight

Silhouette Man

Thunderpussy wrote:

I love all cakes, either Gay or Straight

Surely only in Northern Ireland could such a daft case arise! I was actually quite surprised by the judgment of the Supreme Court on this case as it overruled the two prior judgments. Although I am a Christian, I'm not sure that I agreed with the Ashers bakery's stance on this issue. I also think it's pretty clear that the man who wanted the cake made was merely trying his luck to see if he could prove a point and get a test case started. There have been similar cases in the US.

In the meantime, there has been a massive legal aid bill run up that the taxpayer will have to pay. It's like the appeals in the Colin Howell murder case. All for nothing, except wasting good public money that could be used in much more worthy cases. Northern Ireland has one of the highest legal aid bills in the world. I don't think there can be any winners in these types of cases, and certainly not the hard-pressed taxpayer!

Thunderpussy

I don't think this is " good law" as it now depends on the
Religious or political beliefs of the shop owner, if he'll
Take your business and not an automatic right of a
Customer ?

Silhouette Man

Thunderpussy wrote:

I don't think this is " good law" as it now depends on the
Religious or political beliefs of the shop owner, if he'll
Take your business and not an automatic right of a
Customer ?

Yes, exactly. I think it sets a dangerous precedent. The Supreme Court made a distinction on it, of course, but still. Basically, they said it was the political message, not the customer that made Ashers discriminate. It all leaves me with little sympathy for either party involved. Such a dispute could surely have been settled without recourse to legal action and all this ridiculous amount of money being spent on it, especially other people's money!

Sir Miles

Thunderpussy wrote:

I don't think this is " good law" as it now depends on the
Religious or political beliefs of the shop owner, if he'll
Take your business and not an automatic right of a
Customer ?

Sorry to disagree but it’s the right decision.

If the customer wanted an anti-Semitic message on a cake (for example), are you saying the shop must make it? Or a pro-Nazi one?
For once, I thought common sense prevailed.

Number24

Sir Miles makes a very good point. What if a customer wanted the writing on the cake to say something truely horrible, such as supporting sexual assault or genocide?
Surely the baker should not only be allowed to deny making the cake but also be expected not to make it?
But what if the baker was a extreme muslim and a customer wanted the text "Girl Power" or "I love jews"? Should he be allowed to say no to the cake order?

Should the cultural attitudes of the community at the time and place decide what should be allowed? Then what if the time was the 1950's and the place Alabama?
Should the authorities limit this kind of thing? That opens up all kind of problems.
Perhaps the rule of thumb should be yes to text that are positive and supportive to something or someone, but no to texts that attack or are derogatory. In that case "White and proud" would be legal/allowed, but "down with blacks" wouldn't be. This is a difficult issue.

Thunderpussy

I think under the law as it stands, a shop owner can put up
A sign saying " No political slogans or messages printed "
and he's covered.
Now, I as a shop owner can refuse anything as it goes against
My Religious/Political beliefs.
Such as .....
A certain political party, a mixed race wedding, another
Religion's leaflets, serving "Travellers " or Roma gypsies ?
I honestly think this is a get out of jail card for any bigots.
My believe is that if you're in business, it's to serve the
Whole population, once you start introducing exceptions
It's back to " No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs "

It's an odd feeling for me to be on the Liberal left in a discussion

Sir Miles

Thunderpussy wrote:

...serving "Travellers " or Roma gypsies ?

I’m not sure you fully understood the ruling...? And apologies for just taking a small section of your post.

It was made quite clear that they were NOT refusing to serve the people in question but that they refused to decorate the cake with that particular wording...and that’s a BIG difference.