Crisis in Greece (2015): Any Solutions?

Silhouette Man

So what do we think of all that has happened in Greece of late?:

- The Greek Euro Debt Crisis.
-The Resignation of the Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras (of the Communist Party Syriza) on 20 August 2015 due to many of his MPs voting against the EU Bailout Package.
- Fresh Greek Elections in September 2015.
- The Greek Syrian Refugee Crisis.
- Resurgence of The Golden Dawn Neo-Nazi Party.

This is the place to discuss these topical issues and crises in Greece - a country I have long admired for their valiant conduct against the Axis Powers in WWII.

Perhaps we could get a good "Current Affairs" discussion going on Greece here on AJB.

The floor of the House is open - let the debate begin! -{

always shaken

Greece has more people aged 110 ,than any other country ,
have they discovered the secret to eternal youth ,
or as I suspect ,I could be wrong , people are still claiming pensions for relatives who died 30 odd years ago ?

Thunderpussy

Greece to Europe is like a gangrenous limb. It seems to never heal and
Weakens the rest of the body. We keep being told an agreement has been
reached, Next up pops Greece again with another crisis ! and down goes
All European stock prices and the Euro takes another tumble. )

always shaken

We hired a villa in Kefalonia a few years back just a small shack by the sea ,(Zuess Temple) any way the local taxi firm who we would ring up every night to take us out to dinner ,would arrive in this huge Mercedes AMG all singing all dancing limo .And I couldn't help wondering ,how the bloody hell they paid for it ,I mean the fare was only 4 Euros ,not enough to keep the air con going ,let alone he amount of fuel it drank .But now we know Germany had give Greece unlimited credit to buy Mercs BMWs Audis
ect to prop up the German economy ,not once did hey ever think ,do reckon we will get our money back ?
hmm let me think 8-) 8-) err no X-(

Silhouette Man

Yes, there was of course excessive spending (not only in Greece I might add) but does not Germany owe a historic blood debt to Greece and its peoples? As a historian and Greece fan (I've never been but would love to go there some time) I am reminded of how valiantly Greece fought during World War II and their contribution to delaying Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 (to great detrimental effect on Nazi Germany) should never be overlooked. They remain one of the only countries to push the invading Fascist Italian Army under Mussolini out of Greece and into the neighbouring Italian territory of Albania (which they took over in 1939). The British landed in Greece to help them in the fighting but when the Germans went to help their Italian ally they had to pull out of the country (like at Dunkirk in France in 1940). As a result of this unprovoked attack by the Axis powers I think that Germany should write off their debt up until 2015 (or see their return to their old currency the drachma) as a late recognition of their fight against the fascist hordes in the last war. It may not be a popular belief but it's one that I stick by. The Germans never really paid sufficient reparations after the war to Greece so now is the time to recognise the damage they caused to this great country once and for all. I'll end with a quote from Prime Minister Winston Churchill on their fighting in the Greco-Italian War (1940-41) during World War II:

"Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but we will say that heroes fight like Greeks."

HatThrowingHenchman

somehow it's still a strange feeling to see germany paying and the greeks burning the german flag on TV

Ornithologist

I went to Greece for the first time in 2004. Everybody was totally excited about their triumph in the European Football Championship and the upcoming Olympics. The country seemed on the surface to be heading in the right direction, with new infrastructure being built, etc. Everybody was very friendly towards Germany, praising coach Otto Rehagel as Rehacles (of course a wordplay on Heracles) and showing off their sparse language skills at every chance.

Almost exactly ten years later, I went again (to Crete). The mood was gloomy all around and it was more than once that we were refused entry into a bar because we were German speakers.

What had happened in between? Had I done anything to the Greek people? Had they done anything to me?

I think both the Greek and the German people are being screwed over by their governments who bail out banks (as opposed to Greece, the country), which retroactively enables them to essentially speculate risk-free (which is possible nowhere else in the private sector).

And then their respective media try to turn the people against each other. Successfully, it seems. Makes me sad.

Napoleon Plural

Wasn't Greece allowed into the EU because of dodgy London accountants not examining the books thoroughly enough, waving them in with a friendly wave?

Like Spain and maybe Italy, it should never have been allowed into the EU. Not the fault of the Greek people. But there was this FIFA-like attitude, oh, the pixie dust of the EU will sort out any dodgy corruption.

Ornithologist

Italy was a founding member though.

Thunderpussy

The whole euro was a con even Germany now wouldn't meet the
Criteria needed to be in it, let alone Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain
or France. ) due to the percentage of debt against what the country
makes . Forgot to add Italy to the list )

Ornithologist

For further reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_currency_area

Hint: Europe isn't one.

Thunderpussy

I could never understand how an industrial powerhouse of a country like
Germany, would have so much in common with Greece a small tourist
Dependent country ? Infact so much in common they would need to share
a currency.
Infact this just adds weight to the New World Order conspiracy theory, )
Some more info here.

http://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/40626/silhouette-mans-strange-and-bizarre-mysterious-world-thread/
SM's Strange World.

Higgins

Silhouette Man wrote:

I think that Germany should write off their debt up until 2015 (or see their return to their old currency the drachma).....

I'll ignore these comments at my best possible ability X-(

Just some thoughts

"The money has been used only to bail out the banks". Like it or not but the importance of operating banks has been demonstrated in the 4 weeks (bank closure) after the referendum.

"Void their debts"
no matter under which circumstances this would happen:

- without reforms in the public sector* and the economy that money would end up in black holes like it has over so many years
- greek government (particularly Syriza) would have used that situation to mass up new debts immediately to finance the greek way of living like their previous governments have done in so many years.

Don't get me wrong. I am all for helping people in need but someone rightly analyzed the greek's governments behaviour like someone putting a gun on his head and tell all the others, that he'll pull the trigger.
Problem was that he was standing on a very expensice carpet.

* fun fact: With a population of 11 million , there are around 800.00 civil servants in Greece and these are highly inefficient and corrupt to put it mildly.

Thunderpussy

Every civil service job has to be filled .... in triplicate.

Silhouette Man

HatThrowingHenchman wrote:

somehow it's still a strange feeling to see germany paying and the greeks burning the german flag on TV

Yes, it's rather ironic that, isn't it, sort of biting the hand that feeds you?

Just for the record (and for the benefit any German members of AJB) I do not in any way condone attacks on German citizens in Greece, the burning of the German national flag, or anything else of that nature. It is abhorrent and just plain wrong. It achieves nothing and solves nothing. It should be stopped at once by those who persist in doing it.

Ornithologist

Higgins wrote:

"The money has been used only to bail out the banks". Like it or not but the importance of operating banks has been demonstrated in the 4 weeks (bank closure) after the referndum.

This may be true and I didn't want to jump on the populist "banksters are at fault for everything" bandwagon.

However, I wasn't referring to the Greek banks but rather to the country's foreign (private sector) creditors. I'm not an economist, but to my knowledge these initially lent money to Greece at comparatively high rates of return, which correspond to the higher risk of default. When it became clear (and it seems as if this happens anew every few months) that Greece is unable to repay them, a so-called bail out happens, which means that these losses are essentially recovered, while very little of that money lands in the pockets of individual greek citizens.

That's why I'm not so sure if

Silhouette Man wrote:

biting the hand that feeds you?

is even an appropriate metaphor, because the living standards of Greeks don't improve as a result of these bail-outs.

I might be completely wrong but if someone could explain it better, I'd be so happy. Would be equally strange and great at the same time if the most fruitful discussion of this topic were to happen on a James Bond forum )

Silhouette Man

Perhaps this article will help you, Ornithologist, on your correction assertion against my "biting the hand that feeds you" point:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/germans-begin-the-looting-of-greece-2015-08-21

And why can't the Crisis in Greece be discussed on a Bond forum - we have plenty of great and highly intelligent members here and I know they won't let AJB down. Plus, this is the Off-topic Chat' so almost anything goes, I feel. -{

Ornithologist

Yes, I had heard about FraPort etc. My point was that while it may hurt us Germans to be portrayed as Nazis, the devil or whatever in the streets of Greece, "we" (meaning the German government and big business, which one might argue is actually the opposite of "we") aren't exactly knights in shining armor either. So the Greeks might be biting our hand, but not because it feeds them.

And yes, it's perfectly fine to discuss it here. I normally don't participate in discussions on the internet because they always turn stupid and personal very quickly. Here, I don't fear that happening. So cheers to AJB -{

Thunderpussy

I don't know we have a few New Members from Germany and we suddenly start having
civilized, erudite discussions on world affairs. This can't be right ? ) ) )

HatThrowingHenchman

someone once said "the germans are only popular when it comes to paying" ?!

Higgins

Thunderpussy wrote:

I don't know we have a few New Members from Germany and we suddenly start having
civilized, erudite discussions on world affairs. This can't be right ? ) ) )

Your wish is my command, Paddyboy

Thunderpussy

Notice how I said "NEW" members ! )

Higgins

compared to your postcount, I am absolutely rookie on AJB

Thunderpussy

I can't help it if I have loads of interesting points to make.

Higgins

) ) )

You sound a bit like my wife when I am asking her to shut up ) ) )

Thunderpussy

Yet, somehow I think everyone's sympathies will be with
Mrs Higgins.
Basically all the problems with the world started when, The British Empire
Began to close down.

Ornithologist

Somebody read his Niall Ferguson?

Thunderpussy

) sadly I'm not that intellectual..

Ornithologist

He seems to make this point (slightly more subtly) in his book Empire. Of course it's highly controversial. Colonialism doesn't get too much good press these days. But he makes some interesting observations, especially when comparing Imperial Britain to the post 1945 United States.

Absolutely_Cart

Greece really shouldn't be a part of the EU for much longer ; it was a stretch to begin with and I don't think the entire continent's economy should be strained. The instability, fiscal imbalance and tax evasion are all just too much. They've been given numerous chances and haven't truly reformed.

Silhouette Man

Absolutely_Cart wrote:

Greece really shouldn't be a part of the EU for much longer ; it was a stretch to begin with and I don't think the entire continent's economy should be strained. The instability, fiscal imbalance and tax evasion are all just too much. They've been given numerous chances and haven't truly reformed.

Well I don't think that Greece has to go so far as to leave the EU. What it probably does need to do is leave the Euro single currency but I'm a Euroscetic from the UK so what would I know, right?