Top 5 Reasons why TND outranks GE

Firemass

1. Much better pre-title sequence.

IMO the most exciting one in the series along with Octopussy. Plus, there are no cringeworthy moments like Brosnan hanging updown in a bathroom stall or hilariously freefalling off a cliff. Don't get me wrong, the GE pre-titles could have been great if they removed the above two items.

2. Bond allowed to be Bond and not lectured by every character.

Let Bond decide how much pumping is necessary. Do not call him a misogynist dinosaur, or any number of other self-aware critiques of the Bond character throughout Goldeneye.

3. Bond actually uses his gadget laden car.

What's up with that blue BMW in Goldeneye that barely even got driven? Granted, I'm not a huge fan of his 4-door sedan in TND, but at least he used it to its full capabilities.

4. Better hair-cut.

Lookin' sharp 007!

5. Awesome end credits song.

Goldeneye ends with the lamest, most boring song possible. Did we just watch a Bond movie?
Also, what's with all the Marines on stand by? That was sure a weird ending!

Agent Purple

Interesting arguments Firemass. I doubt many will agree with you, but we'll see what happens.

chrisisall

You KNOW I agree with all this already, FM! {[]

blame_thatcher

Despite being another bad Bond film, TND is more enjoyable to watch than GE.

Agent Purple

Are there good and bad Bond films?

Thunderpussy

not in my world ! They're all good.

broadshoulder

If my flat was on fire....the only Brosnan I would go in and rescue is TND..

DAD can be consigned to the flames....

Matt S

I agree with all of this!

chrisisall

GE was an experiment that turned out mostly successful.
TWINE was an experiment of going dark whilst retaining lightness, and it was kind of successful.
DAD was... well, shall we say, not cool in every area.

TND was the only truly perfect Brosnan Bond.
By the numbers you say? How about I play a little number on your head?
)

Barbel

I like this thread! I'd add that TND's score (not just the end credits song) wipes GE's out.

Gassy Man

Firemass wrote:

1. Much better pre-title sequence.

IMO the most exciting one in the series along with Octopussy. Plus, there are no cringeworthy moments like Brosnan hanging updown in a bathroom stall or hilariously freefalling off a cliff. Don't get me wrong, the GE pre-titles could have been great if they removed the above two items.

2. Bond allowed to be Bond and not lectured by every character.

Let Bond decide how much pumping is necessary. Do not call him a misogynist dinosaur, or any number of other self-aware critiques of the Bond character throughout Goldeneye.

3. Bond actually uses his gadget laden car.

What's up with that blue BMW in Goldeneye that barely even got driven? Granted, I'm not a huge fan of his 4-door sedan in TND, but at least he used it to its full capabilities.

4. Better hair-cut.

Lookin' sharp 007!

5. Awesome end credits song.

Goldeneye ends with the lamest, most boring song possible. Did we just watch a Bond movie?
Also, what's with all the Marines on stand by? That was sure a weird ending!

Excellent points -- I would add that the production values overall are better, the soundtrack overall is better, the film uses the traditional elements better, Brosnan's wardrobe is better, and the film follows through on its premise better (Goldeneye, for all the promises of one double-O against another doesn't really do much in this regard).

Is Tomorrow Never Dies a great Bond film? No. Like all of Brosnan's films, it gets some details right and others wrong. Teri Hatcher is all but awful as Paris, a character that also gets little development. Jonathan Pryce, who can play creepy villains, comes across more often instead as twerpy, and Ricky Jay is given little to do. The Dr. Kaufman character is unfortunately oddly campy, both as a character and because of Vicent Schiavelli's performance, better suited for an episode of Hogan's Heroes ("Heff you cald zee audo klub?") than this movie, ruining what could have been a better scene.

chrisisall

Barbel wrote:

I like this thread! I'd add that TND's score (not just the end credits song) wipes GE's out.

Oh, that's a given. After GE's 'new direction' for Bond music, Arnold's TND score had me literally cheering ("Chris! Keep it DOWN!!). )

Agent Purple

Thunderpussy wrote:

not in my world ! They're all good.

For example, maybe CR is one of the best made Bond films, but it probably wouldn't make my Top 10. Might even lie outside my Top 15.

So yeah, how well-made a Bond film is and how much one likes it are two completely different things as far as I'm concerned.

Barbel

Gassy Man wrote:

The Dr. Kaufman character is absurdly campy, both as a character and because of Vincent Schiavelli's performance, better suited for an episode of Hogan's Heroes ("Heff you cald zee audo klub?") than this movie, ruining what could have been a better scene.

I thought it was an excellent scene, one of the best in the movie!

chrisisall

Agent Purple wrote:

how well-made a Bond film is and how much one likes it are two completely different things as far as I'm concerned.

Totally. SF is incredibly well made, for instance, but I like TMWTGG a whole lot more.
The thing is, given the tone Spottiswoode set for TND, it's a basically perfect Bond movie, even better than TSWLM IMO. -{

Agent Purple

Barbel wrote:

Gassy Man wrote:

The Dr. Kaufman character is absurdly campy, both as a character and because of Vincent Schiavelli's performance, better suited for an episode of Hogan's Heroes ("Heff you cald zee audo klub?") than this movie, ruining what could have been a better scene.

I thought it was an excellent scene, one of the best in the movie!

"I am just a professional doing a job!"

"Me too." *shoots him*

Virgil37

Firemass wrote:

1. Much better pre-title sequence.

IMO the most exciting one in the series along with Octopussy. Plus, there are no cringeworthy moments like Brosnan hanging updown in a bathroom stall or hilariously freefalling off a cliff. Don't get me wrong, the GE pre-titles could have been great if they removed the above two items.

2. Bond allowed to be Bond and not lectured by every character.

Let Bond decide how much pumping is necessary. Do not call him a misogynist dinosaur, or any number of other self-aware critiques of the Bond character throughout Goldeneye.

3. Bond actually uses his gadget laden car.

What's up with that blue BMW in Goldeneye that barely even got driven? Granted, I'm not a huge fan of his 4-door sedan in TND, but at least he used it to its full capabilities.

4. Better hair-cut.

Lookin' sharp 007!

5. Awesome end credits song.

Goldeneye ends with the lamest, most boring song possible. Did we just watch a Bond movie?
Also, what's with all the Marines on stand by? That was sure a weird ending!

Even though I agree with all your points, I still think GE is superior to TND.

chrisisall

Barbel wrote:

Gassy Man wrote:

The Dr. Kaufman character is absurdly campy, both as a character and because of Vincent Schiavelli's performance, better suited for an episode of Hogan's Heroes ("Heff you cald zee audo klub?") than this movie, ruining what could have been a better scene.

I thought it was an excellent scene, one of the best in the movie!

When he asked "Heff you cald zee audo klub?" it made me strangely uncomfortable, as if he was clueless to the humanity he so sorely lacked. He played that so well... I know it was meant to be able to be funny for some, but to me it was just eerie.

Agent Purple

Virgil37 wrote:

Firemass wrote:

1. Much better pre-title sequence.

IMO the most exciting one in the series along with Octopussy. Plus, there are no cringeworthy moments like Brosnan hanging updown in a bathroom stall or hilariously freefalling off a cliff. Don't get me wrong, the GE pre-titles could have been great if they removed the above two items.

2. Bond allowed to be Bond and not lectured by every character.

Let Bond decide how much pumping is necessary. Do not call him a misogynist dinosaur, or any number of other self-aware critiques of the Bond character throughout Goldeneye.

3. Bond actually uses his gadget laden car.

What's up with that blue BMW in Goldeneye that barely even got driven? Granted, I'm not a huge fan of his 4-door sedan in TND, but at least he used it to its full capabilities.

4. Better hair-cut.

Lookin' sharp 007!

5. Awesome end credits song.

Goldeneye ends with the lamest, most boring song possible. Did we just watch a Bond movie?
Also, what's with all the Marines on stand by? That was sure a weird ending!

Even though I agree with all your points, I still think GE is superior to TND.

Virgil, what's your ranking of the Brosnan 007 movies (just for knowledge's sake)?

Gassy Man

Barbel wrote:

Gassy Man wrote:

The Dr. Kaufman character is absurdly campy, both as a character and because of Vincent Schiavelli's performance, better suited for an episode of Hogan's Heroes ("Heff you cald zee audo klub?") than this movie, ruining what could have been a better scene.

I thought it was an excellent scene, one of the best in the movie!

Oh, Barbel, you know I respect your opinion, but that character was just tonally all wrong. The idea of a psychotic academic was fine, but they played it like Sergeant Schultz.

MooseWithFleas

You make great points FM though. I would counterpoint with the following:

1.) GoldenEye has a better supporting cast. I love Michelle Yeoh & Vincent Schiavelli and I even like the oft-criticized Jonathan Pryce and Terri Hatcher. However, they don't match-up to Sean Bean, Famke Janssen, Robbie Coltrane, Alan Cumming, and Gottfried John. I thought the Mi6 crew was stronger here as well, I prefer Q/Moneypenny/M in GE and prefer Tanner to Charles Robinson, though I like both.

2.) Better finale. The stealth boat is a bit of a yawner for me. It blends too much in my mind with the nuclear sub from TWINE. GE has more exotic locational feel and the film gets more out of it.

3.) Title sequence and title song. While I whole-heartedly agree that TND crushes on the end credit song, the opening themes work much better for me.

4.) Casino scene!!! I love Carver's HQ, but I'm a sucker for a casino scene.

5.) Aston Martin! (Equipped with Bollinger too ) Sure the car would get destroyed in any type of race against a Ferrari 355, but it's an Aston!


FM, you also have one of the most unique Top 10's ever. Even more different than mine. Love it! -{

Gassy Man

chrisisall wrote:

Barbel wrote:

Gassy Man wrote:

The Dr. Kaufman character is absurdly campy, both as a character and because of Vincent Schiavelli's performance, better suited for an episode of Hogan's Heroes ("Heff you cald zee audo klub?") than this movie, ruining what could have been a better scene.

I thought it was an excellent scene, one of the best in the movie!

When he asked "Heff you cald zee audo klub?" it made me strangely uncomfortable, as if he was clueless to the humanity he so sorely lacked. He played that so well... I know it was meant to be able to be funny for some, but to me it was just eerie.

It made me think of comedy Nazis saying things like " I know nothink!" and "Hogaaaaaannnnn. Hmphh!!" I thought I was watching an episode of the 1960s Batman.

chrisisall

Gassy Man wrote:

It made me think of comedy Nazis saying things like " I know nothink!" and "Hogaaaaaannnnn. Hmphh!!" I thought I was watching an episode of the 1960s Batman.

Differn't strokes, my man.

Gassy Man

chrisisall wrote:

Gassy Man wrote:

It made me think of comedy Nazis saying things like " I know nothink!" and "Hogaaaaaannnnn. Hmphh!!" I thought I was watching an episode of the 1960s Batman.

Differn't strokes, my man.

It's true, and I can respect that.

chrisisall

Gassy Man wrote:

It's true, and I can respect that.

If it's any consolation, IMO The Prisoner beats Bond in most every quarter except sheer spectacle.
But... I've watched TND 20X or more, and The Prisoner series only 4X (since it came on DVD).

Barbel

Gassy Man wrote:

Barbel wrote:

Gassy Man wrote:

The Dr. Kaufman character is absurdly campy, both as a character and because of Vincent Schiavelli's performance, better suited for an episode of Hogan's Heroes ("Heff you cald zee audo klub?") than this movie, ruining what could have been a better scene.

I thought it was an excellent scene, one of the best in the movie!

Oh, Barbel, you know I respect your opinion, but that character was just tonally all wrong. The idea of a psychotic academic was fine, but they played it like Sergeant Schultz.

As Chris says, different strokes!

Higgins

ahem.....

"bloke on the rear seat" ;%

Barbel

Well, I'm sure his accent will be impeccable anyway....

Gassy Man

Higgins wrote:

ahem.....

"bloke on the rear seat" ;%

Yeah, that's right -- and very cool, Higgins!

Gassy Man

chrisisall wrote:

Gassy Man wrote:

It's true, and I can respect that.

If it's any consolation, IMO The Prisoner beats Bond in most every quarter except sheer spectacle.
But... I've watched TND 20X or more, and The Prisoner series only 4X (since it came on DVD).

The original? It is excellent!

Dutchfinger

OP makes five valid points I would agree all on. But I would still say GE easily outranks TND despite that. Main reason for me is a GE has a much more original plot and much more intresting characters. 15 minutes into TND and you would have already figured out the entire plot, which is a recycled version of TSWLM and YOLT. Luckily the action in it is great, but I defenitely don't watch it because the story is very engaging or real. Also, GE has Xenia Onatopp, which should be a valid reason on it's own !