Tomorrow Never Dies vs. SPECTRE

chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,062MI6 Agent
in The James Bond Films
In 1997 I thrilled to TND, and 18 years later a Bond film came out that I enjoy about equally. Let's do it by the numbers:
1. Bond. Although I'm a huge Brosnan fan I have to give it to Craig for his magnificent peformance. SP
2. Action. TND is really hard to beat here.
3. Music. Easy win for TND.
4. Story. I like the TND story a bit better.
5. Villain. I love Carver, but Waltz was awesome. SP
6. Bond Girl. Easy for me- Michelle Yeoh rocks even though Sedoux is mesmerizing. TND
7. Cinematography. This is hard... I guess I'd give it to SP.
8. Editing. Again hard. TND
9. Henchman. No contest. SP
10. Flemingesque. SP
11. Humour. Tie.
12. The gritty rough stuff. SP easily.

Huh. 6 for TND & 7 for SP. Strange that I like TND a tiny bit better... hmmmm.
Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
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Comments

  • FiremassFiremass AlaskaPosts: 1,910MI6 Agent
    I really love both films and feel they are "definitive" Bond movies with all the right elements in place.

    Here's my 2 cents on your criteria:

    1. Bond. I rank both performances in the top 3 ever. Craig finally won me over. *TIE*
    2. Action. TND delivers the goods. SP suffers from empty streets and empty train during action scenes.
    3. Music. TND
    4. Story. TND. I'm not a big fan of "digging into Bond's past"
    5. Villain. TND More screen time, more great dialog, Carver is one of my favorites.
    6. Bond Girl. SP
    7. Cinematography. SP. Especially love the opening tracking shot. On par with Touch of Evil or The Player, except cooler!
    8. Editing - I should care, but I don't.
    9. Henchman *Tie* Hinx is awesome, but so are Dr. Kaufman and Stamper.
    10. Flemingesque. SP
    11. Humour. *Tie* (Who would have thought Craig could pull it off?)
    12. The gritty rough stuff. SP


    and my own criteria:

    13. Q Scene. SP has some of the funniest Q moments yet.
    14. Car chase. SP. Both are good, but the DB10 is cooler than the 4-door sedan in TND.
    15. Locations. SP. Very diverse mix of Mexico, London, Austria, Tangier. They all looked incredible.
    16. Villains Lair TND. Hard to beat a stealth boat. Blofeld's information gathering station looked too much like a science laboratory.

    Overall….hard to choose a winner. Both get top marks from me.
    My current 10 favorite:

    1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,062MI6 Agent
    Your added criteria is most welcomed, thanks! {[]
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,610MI6 Agent
    1. Bond. SP. I generally prefer Brosnan, but Craig finally is believable in the role in SP
    2. Action. TND
    3. Music. TND, the easiest choice here
    4. Story. TND
    5. Villain. TND
    6. Bond Girl. SP
    7. Cinematography. SP
    8. Editing. TND
    9. Henchman. SP
    10. Flemingesque. SP
    11. Humour. SP
    12. The gritty rough stuff. SP
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • am747am747 Posts: 720MI6 Agent
    A film tends to be more than sum of its parts. I like TND but SP has a classy feel relatively to it. .... May be it has got to do with how SP was made to follow up on the $1B+ revenue generating SF
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,062MI6 Agent
    am747 wrote:
    A film tends to be more than sum of its parts. I like TND but SP has a classy feel relatively to it. .... May be it has got to do with how SP was made to follow up on the $1B+ revenue generating SF
    I would seat TB, TND & SP in the same first class section of the cinematic Bond plane.
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    1. Bond. SP.
    2. Action. SP.
    3. Music. SP. Not a fan of Arnold's first.
    4. Story. TND.
    5. Villain. TND.
    6. Bond Girl. SP.
    7. Cinematography. SP.
    8. Editing. SP.
    9. Henchman. SP.
    10. Flemingesque. SP.
    11. Humour. SP.
    12. The gritty rough stuff. SP.

    I don't like TND, but I do like the story and Carver is classic as a spoilt brat.
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • am747am747 Posts: 720MI6 Agent
    chrisisall wrote:
    am747 wrote:
    A film tends to be more than sum of its parts. I like TND but SP has a classy feel relatively to it. .... May be it has got to do with how SP was made to follow up on the $1B+ revenue generating SF
    I would seat TB, TND & SP in the same first class section of the cinematic Bond plane.

    In your signature, I can see that you have ranked TND at #2 (technically at 3) :)
  • am747am747 Posts: 720MI6 Agent
    I would seat TB, TND & SP in the same first class section of the cinematic Bond plane.
    Music. SP. Not a fan of Arnold's first

    There a lot of subjective comments on such thread which is appreciated .... However, sometimes, I wonder what if someone's favorite holiday destination is Afghanistan / Iraq / Syria. Would you go about saying that it is the best place to holiday in the world to everyone or would you objectively say that it is not the best place to go on holidays unless you love to play with fire :))
  • JagJag Posts: 1,167MI6 Agent
    I'm surprised Craig may be considered more "Flemingesque" than Brosnan. What criteria do you take into consideration? Fleming's character did not look like he was pumped with steroids. And, of course, we must never forget that "bird never make nest in bare tree"...
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,610MI6 Agent
    Jag wrote:
    And, of course, we must never forget that "bird never make nest in bare tree"...

    That's Roald Dahl's Bond.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • JagJag Posts: 1,167MI6 Agent
    Matt S wrote:
    Jag wrote:
    And, of course, we must never forget that "bird never make nest in bare tree"...

    That's Roald Dahl's Bond.


    Are you saying it's not from the novel?
  • Bondage007Bondage007 AustraliaPosts: 371MI6 Agent
    1. Bond. Tough one. Brosnan wins here, his performance is why TND is so high on my list and his awesomeness in this film is why I want to "be Bond"
    2. Action. Apart from the BMW chase which is easily one of my favs and among my most rewatched in all 24 films, TND falls flat. But it's still better than Spectre's.
    3. Music. To quote you, "Easy win for TND."
    4. Story. Was gonna say TND's is ludicrous but it's not moreso than other Bond films. TND wins, I don't buy the personal stuff in Spectre.
    5. Villain. Can't decide
    6. Bond Girl. Swann. She's fantastic for the most part, just don't buy the sudden in love thing
    7. Cinematography. Spectre easily
    8. Editing. Probably TND, it's better paced
    9. Henchman. Tie. Hinx is great but totally underused. At least Stamper had some good lines.
    10. Flemingesque. SP
    11. Humour. SP
    12. The gritty rough stuff. SP

    TND: 5
    SP: 5
    Tie: 2

    Preference TND > SP
    2019 Bondathon...in progress (6) FRWL (7) GE (8) FYEO (9) TND (10) MR (11) GF (12) LALD (13) DAF (14) LTK (15) TMWTGG (16) TB (17) TSWLM (18) DAD (19) AVTAK (20) YOLT (21) QOS (22) SF (23) TWINE (24) SP
  • Golrush007Golrush007 South AfricaPosts: 3,421Quartermasters
    1. Bond. SP. I loved Daniel Craig's performance in Spectre. One of my all time favourite Bond performances.
    2. Action. TND. I think the pre-title sequence and the bike chase are great.
    3. Music. TND. Possibly the best non-Barry score.
    4. Story. SP. Tough one. I don't think either stories are particularly strong.
    5. Villain. SP. Christoph Waltz is a very good villain, with greater subtlety in his performance than Pryce.
    6. Bond Girl. SP. Definitely Lea Seydoux. As impressive as Michelle Yeo's action skills are, I've never taken to her as a Bond girl.
    7. Cinematography. SP. Hoyte van Hoytema is one my favourite DOPs.
    8. Editing. Tie. I've only seen Spectre once so I can't comment on editing yet.
    9. Henchman. SP. Hinx is far better than Stamper.
    10. Flemingesque. SP. Littered with Flemingisms and even a great bit of Kingsley Amis.
    11. Humour. SP. I really like the SP humour, especially involving Q, and the 'We know what C stands for' line.
    12. The gritty rough stuff. SP. This is Daniel's strong point, and even though the tone is lighter this time around, the rough stuff is still there.

    So the final result is an easy win for SPECTRE.... 9-2

    I like Tomorrow Never Dies but it is well within the lower half of my Bond ranking, whereas SPECTRE is in my top 10.
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    Golrush007 wrote:
    I like Tomorrow Never Dies but it is well within the lower half of my Bond ranking, whereas SPECTRE is in my top 10.

    Thank you! {[]
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • am747am747 Posts: 720MI6 Agent
    Golrush007 wrote:

    I like Tomorrow Never Dies but it is well within the lower half of my Bond ranking, whereas SPECTRE is in my top 10.

    I like TND too but it is the 2nd half of my current dynamic ranking. While SP is at 10. .... I have clubbed TND with films such as MR and OP, which are "sit back, switch off your brain and enjoy" films. There is no point in trying to find major faults with such films .... While SP is more closer to films such as YOLT
  • Golrush007Golrush007 South AfricaPosts: 3,421Quartermasters
    am747 wrote:
    I like TND too but it is the 2nd half of my current dynamic ranking. While SP is at 10. .... I have clubbed TND with films such as MR and OP, which are "sit back, switch off your brain and enjoy" films. There is no point in trying to find major faults with such films .... While SP is more closer to films such as YOLT

    Precisely how I feel. And I think that all of the films in that category, regardless of their faults, make up an essential part of the Bond canon. Films such as Octopussy, Moonraker, A View to a Kill and Tomorrow Never Dies are ones that I get great pleasure from re-watching.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 SwitzerlandPosts: 870MI6 Agent
    I'll first play along with your list :)

    1. Bond: Even if I find Craig to be clearly at his best in SP, nothing beats Brosnan in GE, TND or DAD performance wise.
    2. Action: PTS, a tie, because these two are the two best PTSs of the series.
    3. Music: a no-brainer, Thomas Newman bloody sucks. David Arnold delivered a masterpiece with TND.
    4. Story: Both stories have very relevant plots. All mighty media-mogul megalomaniac and secret organization wanting to control the intelligence agencies.
    5. Villain: Elliot Carver is one of my favourites and he is definitely my guilty-pleasure villain. Waltz of course was brilliant.
    6. Bond Girl: Wai Lin way win :))
    7. Cinematography: SPECTRE
    8. Editing: SPECTRE
    9. Henchman: Stamper is bloody awesome and so funny. Hinx had two good memorable scenes.
    10. Flemingesque. Hmmm....none....ok, Blofeld is Felmingesque, so SPECTRE
    11. Humour: Clearly TND.
    12. The gritty rough stuff: SPECTRE

    TND resides at No 10 ranking street in JasonBondLand, SP at No 1.

    But TND could be as high as No 3 if it wouldn't lack one important thing: Romance. Sadly Teri Hatcher is just wrong in TND. Wai Lin isn't a romantic Bond-girl. Therefore TND feels kind of cold for the most part. Sure, Wai Lin is wai cool :)) (oh, dear, I'll stop now :)) )

    Also it is sooooo crowded at the top, but it could be possible that I will rank TND higher in the future after a new Bondathon.
    Dalton Rulez™
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,062MI6 Agent
    BondJasonBond006 wrote:
    Wai Lin isn't a romantic Bond-girl.
    She got romantic at the end.
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,610MI6 Agent
    BondJasonBond006 wrote:
    1. Bond: Even if I find Craig to be clearly at his best in SP, nothing beats Brosnan in GE, TND or DAD performance wise.

    Is Brosnan just too good in TWINE that it's so insulting to Craig to even mention it?
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    Matt S wrote:
    BondJasonBond006 wrote:
    1. Bond: Even if I find Craig to be clearly at his best in SP, nothing beats Brosnan in GE, TND or DAD performance wise.

    Is Brosnan just too good in TWINE that it's so insulting to Craig to even mention it?

    {[] Brosnan's best performance.
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • Agent PurpleAgent Purple Posts: 857MI6 Agent
    edited December 2015
    This is my ranking of Brozzer's performances (though I love 'em all):

    DAD
    TWINE
    TND
    GE

    The Top 3 are all A plus level for me, while I give him an A average for his GE performance.

    I just feel he had his strongest delivery in DAD, however that's simply my opinion.

    Ofc, I am a Brosnan fanboy.
    "Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
    New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
    1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
    Bond actors to be re-ranked later
  • FiremassFiremass AlaskaPosts: 1,910MI6 Agent
    Agent Purple wrote:
    I just feel he had his strongest delivery in DAD,

    I think I got the thrust of it...
    My current 10 favorite:

    1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,062MI6 Agent
    Firemass wrote:
    Agent Purple wrote:
    I just feel he had his strongest delivery in DAD,

    I think I got the thrust of it...
    You guyz.... 8-) :))
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • Agent PurpleAgent Purple Posts: 857MI6 Agent
    edited December 2015
    chrisisall wrote:
    Firemass wrote:
    Agent Purple wrote:
    I just feel he had his strongest delivery in DAD,

    I think I got the thrust of it...
    You guyz.... 8-) :))

    :))
    "Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
    New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
    1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
    Bond actors to be re-ranked later
  • am747am747 Posts: 720MI6 Agent
    appears to be a very strong delivery :))
  • broadshoulderbroadshoulder Acton, London, UKPosts: 1,363MI6 Agent
    Jag wrote:
    I'm surprised Craig may be considered more "Flemingesque" than Brosnan. What criteria do you take into consideration? Fleming's character did not look like he was pumped with steroids. And, of course, we must never forget that "bird never make nest in bare tree"...

    Sorry, but at what moment did Brosnan stray into Fleming. Please enlighten me?
    1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,610MI6 Agent
    broadshoulder wrote:
    Jag wrote:
    I'm surprised Craig may be considered more "Flemingesque" than Brosnan. What criteria do you take into consideration? Fleming's character did not look like he was pumped with steroids. And, of course, we must never forget that "bird never make nest in bare tree"...

    Sorry, but at what moment did Brosnan stray into Fleming. Please enlighten me?

    Physically Brosnan is a little closer than Craig.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • broadshoulderbroadshoulder Acton, London, UKPosts: 1,363MI6 Agent
    edited December 2015
    Matt S wrote:
    broadshoulder wrote:
    Jag wrote:
    I'm surprised Craig may be considered more "Flemingesque" than Brosnan. What criteria do you take into consideration? Fleming's character did not look like he was pumped with steroids. And, of course, we must never forget that "bird never make nest in bare tree"...

    Sorry, but at what moment did Brosnan stray into Fleming. Please enlighten me?

    Physically Brosnan is a little closer than Craig.

    Prove it
    1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,610MI6 Agent
    broadshoulder wrote:
    Matt S wrote:
    broadshoulder wrote:

    Sorry, but at what moment did Brosnan stray into Fleming. Please enlighten me?

    Physically Brosnan is a little closer than Craig.

    Prove it

    Black hair, 6 feet tall and slim build. Brosnan is only 1 inch taller. Must you always be so unpleasant when it comes to Brosnan? It really seems like this goes beyond his acting.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I find TND as great fun film, it has some great sequences. -{ although
    It's not exactly deep on the emotional front, more an action shoot' em up.
    Spectre on the other hand, has less action but ( only my view) it has a more
    emotional script. With Bond falling in love, not just another fling. Having to
    do a deal with an old enemy, to complete his mission.so story wise it has a
    bit more depth to it.
    All good stuff, many reviewers don't seem to get that, far from a cardboard
    cut out action Hero, Bond is a more complicated character than that.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
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