unlike Craig Brosnan is tall and he doesn't look like a thug on steroids.
That's a tad unfair IMO. 8-) )
Well, that's how we roll if we're looking for any opportunity at all to get a blade in.
I wrote an article on Daniel Craig representing Fleming's Bond, which was on this site for years until I pulled it to post as a blog elsewhere. Perhaps I'll repost it, once I find the thread representing it. It's nothing that devoted Craig detractors will agree with, but I believe it makes a certain amount of sense to other, less strident opponents.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Chest hair! Can you imagine Fleming's Bond as having a waxed chest??? That should be enough, but unlike Craig Brosnan is tall and he doesn't look like a thug on steroids.
We have a description of Bonds chest hair. In Dr No, we actually have a description of Bonds pubis in the millipede scene which surmises he is cleanly shaven. I dont think is cleanly shaven - he is naturally like that
1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
The very fact that you felt so compelled to write a piece to defend Craig’s portrayal of Bond and attempted to find bits of Fleming’s writings that fit Craig is very telling.
Of course, you are entitled to your interpretation, just as I am entitled to dismiss it. It’s all very personal and subjective.
If you are looking for a true Fleming’s Bond, only Sean Connery fits the bill. He was accepted for the role by Fleming (although it took some convincing), and Fleming even gave Bond Scottish heritage based on Connery’s origin. His looks and style were similar to Fleming’s writings, as so was his onscreen demeanour. Lazenby comes as a close second.
After that, the movie 007 changed. It was for a number of reasons, but most of all Bond had to change because times had changed. That is why it could be argued that Craig is the least Fleming’s Bond of them all. Not just because he waxes his chest and takes steroids; but he also does not smoke 70 handmade cigarettes a day anymore. And his height of 178 cm may indeed be close to Fleming’s description, but in the 1940’s and 50’s it made you a tall man, nowadays it makes you medium height at best. So I will argue that there is no more Fleming’s James Bond in the sense you propose. If an actor was to meet Fleming’s criteria to the letter, he would no longer fit the spirit of Fleming’s Bond. We need a compromise, somewhere in the middle. To me, both Dalton and Brosnan were such a compromise. Moore and Craig much less so.
Chest hair! Can you imagine Fleming's Bond as having a waxed chest??? That should be enough, but unlike Craig Brosnan is tall and he doesn't look like a thug on steroids.
We have a description of Bonds chest hair. In Dr No, we actually have a description of Bonds pubis in the millipede scene which surmises he is cleanly shaven. I dont think is cleanly shaven - he is naturally like that
That's interesting... can you please include a full quote? My books are in boxes in the garage - still not unpacked after moving a year ago!
Chest hair! Can you imagine Fleming's Bond as having a waxed chest??? That should be enough, but unlike Craig Brosnan is tall and he doesn't look like a thug on steroids.
We have a description of Bonds chest hair. In Dr No, we actually have a description of Bonds pubis in the millipede scene which surmises he is cleanly shaven. I dont think is cleanly shaven - he is naturally like that
That's interesting... can you please include a full quote? My books are in boxes in the garage - still not unpacked after moving a year ago!
Here goes
"God, it was turning towards his groin! Bond set his teerh! Supposing it liked the warmth there! Supposing it liked to crawl between the crevices! Could he stand it? Supposing it chose the place to bite? Bond could feel it questing amongst the first hairs. It tickled.The skin on Bond's belly fluttered. There was nothing he could do to control it"
1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
We have a description of Bonds chest hair. In Dr No, we actually have a description of Bonds pubis in the millipede scene which surmises he is cleanly shaven. I dont think is cleanly shaven - he is naturally like that
That's interesting... can you please include a full quote? My books are in boxes in the garage - still not unpacked after moving a year ago!
Here goes
"God, it was turning towards his groin! Bond set his teerh! Supposing it liked the warmth there! Supposing it liked to crawl between the crevices! Could he stand it? Supposing it chose the place to bite? Bond could feel it questing amongst the first hairs. It tickled.The skin on Bond's belly fluttered. There was nothing he could do to control it"
I don't see anything here that infers that Bond does not have hair on his body. I have plenty of hair everywhere myself and this could still apply to me.
A similar thing happenrd to me one night in bed. Luckily it turned out to
be an ordinary house spider.
I occasionally get millipedes in the bathroom and even bedroom too. A friend even said she was bitten by one. Nasty, but at least they are not deadly - and they're pretty small!
Well, I agree with your first sentence. {[] TND is one of my favourites.
The second sentence, you really don't need to put it in every post. As suggested by my friend Chriscoop here https://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/48933/spectre-disapointed-me-a-bit/page/4/ please discuss your point of view in that thread- you might find others agreeing with you (and disagreeing, of course).
1. Bond: TND. Personally I think Brosnan gave his best performance with this film. He wasn't overly dramatic like in TWINE and wasn't slightly stiff like he was in GE. Just totally cool. Craig gives a good performance. It reminds me of Connery in TB. However, I gotta give this one to Brozza.
2. Action: TND. Every action scene is great. The only things holding it back are the silly punching sounds and the bit where the helicopter uses its roters on the street. Even the bloated finale is awesome. SP has decent action during the PTS and a great train fight. However, the rest of it is unexciting due to the CGI, score, and editing.
3. Music: TND. No contest. I wish David Arnold returned for SF and SP.
4. Story: TND. The media mogul plot was original for Bond and could still be used. Surveillance is an important subject but it doesn't make for interesting viewing. Sorry Blofeld.
5. Villain: TND. Waltz gives a great performance but I'm giving this to Pryce because his backstory is interesting and makes sense.
6. Girl: TND. Wai Lin isn't one of my favorites but she's cool. Swann is an annoying b***h. The bit where she leaves Bond in London seals it. 8-)
7. Cinematography: TND. This would've been a win for SP if it wasn't for the yellow filter which just drains all the life from the settings. TND has a very distinct look and is really vibrant.
8. Editing: TND. Shots last way too long in SP.
9. Henchman: TND. They're both great, but Stamper is used better. They should have kept the scene where he stamps the guard. Hinx is cool and menacing but is used too sparingly.
10. Flemingesque: SP. Only for the Blofeld character, the Hildebrand, and torture scene.
11. Humor: TND. Brosnan had some great lines here. Craig is better with dryer humor like in CR and QOS.
12. The gritty rough stuff: SP. Only because of the train fight and eye gouging.
Easy win for TND. 10-2.
SP was good when I first saw it, but gets weaker with each viewing. I've always enjoyed TND a lot.
2. Action: TND. Every action scene is great. The only things holding it back are the silly punching sounds and the bit where the helicopter uses its roters on the street. Even the bloated finale is awesome. SP has decent action during the PTS and a great train fight. However, the rest of it is unexciting due to the CGI, score, and editing.
3. Music: TND. No contest. I wish David Arnold returned for SF and SP.
-{
By god, these two. I always hated the silly sound effects that Tomorrow Never Dies had and the BMW roof opening up sound effect being present in Backseat Driver isn't much help either. If I ever had a chance to talk with David, I would ask him if it was his or Spottiswoode's choice.
About the directing, the long shots aren't the problem, they're quite impressive in my opinion. Rewatch M's first scene in SPECTRE and you will notice that it is almost handheld but miles better than the M "Enjoying Death" scene in Skyfall. Did the cameraman have to pee or what?
a reasonable rate of return
Thunderbird 2East of Cardiff, Wales.Posts: 2,817MI6 Agent
Oooh how did this one get past my radar?!"
To work then...
1. Bond. TND. - Brosnan is almost at his best here, all the elements are in place and cohesive. Craig is trying to be "Damaged" Bond again or Rather Blofeld is. - BORING!!
2. Action. TND delivers the goods, ok it had budget on its side. It has "Wow!" in a classic Bond way. SP Esp that car chase and the big boom are lackluster. I actually thought "Really? That's it, that's all?!"
3. Music. TND - David Arnold is brilliant and the title song memorable. Sam Who, and the bloke who did Finding Nemo? Eesh.
4. Story. TND. Media Baron baddie? original at the time and relevant.
5. Villain. TND More screen time, more great dialog, Carver is beautifully realised.
6. Bond Girl. SP Admittedly Lea Seydoux does a great job, I like her as Dr Swann. (No offense to the amazing Michelle Yeoh)
7. Cinematography. TND - Because of the locations and the storyline.
8. Editing - Even money. No preference.
9. TND - Hinx is awesome, but underused and thrown away. Dr. Kaufman is funny, and Stamper is menacing and physical.
10. Flemingesque? - Neither! TND is a classic film of the then modern style. SF is self indulgent and flimsy.
11. Humour. TND - Has some good one liners and memorable funny moments. SP tries to hard in the wrong places. "Stage humour."
12. The gritty rough stuff. TND - it has motivation, and plot logic in 007 film style. SP has one long cringe, based on the Cuckoo rubbish.
The Firemass Extension:
13. Q Scene. TND - "Your beautiful new car!!!" "Grow up 007!" Plus Bond with the car. Classic stuff.
14. Car chase. TND. - BMW may be a an "ordinary" car, but the chase is exceptional. SP's DB10 is vile, and underwhelming.
15. Locations. TND. - If feels bigger in scope and scale. SP suffers from more London and Desert! Even the Snow can't save it.
16. Villains Lair TND. Its a Stealth boat. - Lair and vehicle! Blofeld's lab is a giant yet bland (and unoriginal) call centre. BORING!.
17. Overall inclusion. -
TND. A self contained story, with a decent back story element.
SP - Urgh, "Cuckoo" and Craig's over dramatic (implied) Farewell.
Interesting that these 2 films are being compared as I feel they are quite different from each other. Though they are both full of the usual Bond tropes so maybe there's something there! Anyways this is how I see it )
Bond - Spectre. Craig delivers a wonderful performance IMO. Some say he is bored, but I think he has just brought his Bond full circle by being more laconic and humour orientated. I love the character development from Casino to Spectre and this is his most comfortale and charismatic performance I think. Man I hope he does another. Brosnan is of course very good in TND but Craig is the better Bond for me and his performance is superior.
Direction - Mendes (SP)
Action - Probably TND. Though I'm not a big fan of the bike/helicopter chase, the rest of the action is pretty solid stuff. Spectre has 2 great action scenes (pre-titles, train fight) which stand above anything in TND, but these aside and the action is reasonably bland.
Cinematography - Spectre easy. I know people complain about the colouring, but the cinematography is one of the films strongest points and is far superior to TND
Score - TND - David Arnold is a superb Bond composer and his score for TND is very imaginative. The score for Spectre is a Skyfall rehash and is one of the weakest.
Plot - Spectre. The biggest weakness of both films. Both have very average story lines. But as much as I hate the foster brother, personal element to the Spectre plot, overall the films story is still a better caper than TND.
Pre-titles - Spectre easily. One of the best pre-titles in the series. TND pre titles is fine but it is rather run of the mill generic 90s action.
Title sequence - TND
Villain - Can't stand Elliot Carver, so Spectre again. Even though Waltz is criminally underused and his character underdeveloped, Carver is one of the weakest in the series. I know some people love his hammy portrayal, but I am a not a fan.
Henchman - Spectre - Hinx is relatively menancing and that train scene is a classsic. Stamper is okay, however he has a bit of generic blonde henchmen about him.
Bond girls - Spectre. Never a fan of Wai Lin and Paris. Madeleine is a great Bond girl and Monica helps beef it up as well. Though she is definitely underused.
Editing - Spectre is edited very well, however it is 20 minutes too long. Not the fault of the editor obviously, so I'll still pay it to Lee Smith.
Bond song - Both are average, but Spectre edges it for me.
Overall: Spectre. I see both films as 2 of the weakest in the franchise and if i was going to rank them now I would have TND at number 23, and Spectre probably around 17. I just think that Spectre still has enough good stuff in there to push it over the top of another weak entry. -{
Comments
Well, that's how we roll if we're looking for any opportunity at all to get a blade in.
I wrote an article on Daniel Craig representing Fleming's Bond, which was on this site for years until I pulled it to post as a blog elsewhere. Perhaps I'll repost it, once I find the thread representing it. It's nothing that devoted Craig detractors will agree with, but I believe it makes a certain amount of sense to other, less strident opponents.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
We have a description of Bonds chest hair. In Dr No, we actually have a description of Bonds pubis in the millipede scene which surmises he is cleanly shaven. I dont think is cleanly shaven - he is naturally like that
Of course, you are entitled to your interpretation, just as I am entitled to dismiss it. It’s all very personal and subjective.
If you are looking for a true Fleming’s Bond, only Sean Connery fits the bill. He was accepted for the role by Fleming (although it took some convincing), and Fleming even gave Bond Scottish heritage based on Connery’s origin. His looks and style were similar to Fleming’s writings, as so was his onscreen demeanour. Lazenby comes as a close second.
After that, the movie 007 changed. It was for a number of reasons, but most of all Bond had to change because times had changed. That is why it could be argued that Craig is the least Fleming’s Bond of them all. Not just because he waxes his chest and takes steroids; but he also does not smoke 70 handmade cigarettes a day anymore. And his height of 178 cm may indeed be close to Fleming’s description, but in the 1940’s and 50’s it made you a tall man, nowadays it makes you medium height at best. So I will argue that there is no more Fleming’s James Bond in the sense you propose. If an actor was to meet Fleming’s criteria to the letter, he would no longer fit the spirit of Fleming’s Bond. We need a compromise, somewhere in the middle. To me, both Dalton and Brosnan were such a compromise. Moore and Craig much less so.
That's interesting... can you please include a full quote? My books are in boxes in the garage - still not unpacked after moving a year ago!
Here goes
"God, it was turning towards his groin! Bond set his teerh! Supposing it liked the warmth there! Supposing it liked to crawl between the crevices! Could he stand it? Supposing it chose the place to bite? Bond could feel it questing amongst the first hairs. It tickled.The skin on Bond's belly fluttered. There was nothing he could do to control it"
No at that point the millipede was amongst his pubis. Down between his legs..
God, it was turning towards his groin!
I don't see anything here that infers that Bond does not have hair on his body. I have plenty of hair everywhere myself and this could still apply to me.
So then what are you trying to prove about Bond's hair from this quote?
I'm missing something here... which direction is the millipede coming from?
I still cringe reading it.
Ankle to shin to thigh to groin to stomach...
And "through the thin hairs on Bond's right breast up to his collar bone" which I'd say is the relevant line.
A similar thing happenrd to me one night in bed. Luckily it turned out to
be an ordinary house spider.
Thanks for that! So Bond's level of hair is probably somewhere between Connery and Craig.
I occasionally get millipedes in the bathroom and even bedroom too. A friend even said she was bitten by one. Nasty, but at least they are not deadly - and they're pretty small!
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
The second sentence, you really don't need to put it in every post. As suggested by my friend Chriscoop here https://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/48933/spectre-disapointed-me-a-bit/page/4/ please discuss your point of view in that thread- you might find others agreeing with you (and disagreeing, of course).
2. Action: TND. Every action scene is great. The only things holding it back are the silly punching sounds and the bit where the helicopter uses its roters on the street. Even the bloated finale is awesome. SP has decent action during the PTS and a great train fight. However, the rest of it is unexciting due to the CGI, score, and editing.
3. Music: TND. No contest. I wish David Arnold returned for SF and SP.
4. Story: TND. The media mogul plot was original for Bond and could still be used. Surveillance is an important subject but it doesn't make for interesting viewing. Sorry Blofeld.
5. Villain: TND. Waltz gives a great performance but I'm giving this to Pryce because his backstory is interesting and makes sense.
6. Girl: TND. Wai Lin isn't one of my favorites but she's cool. Swann is an annoying b***h. The bit where she leaves Bond in London seals it. 8-)
7. Cinematography: TND. This would've been a win for SP if it wasn't for the yellow filter which just drains all the life from the settings. TND has a very distinct look and is really vibrant.
8. Editing: TND. Shots last way too long in SP.
9. Henchman: TND. They're both great, but Stamper is used better. They should have kept the scene where he stamps the guard. Hinx is cool and menacing but is used too sparingly.
10. Flemingesque: SP. Only for the Blofeld character, the Hildebrand, and torture scene.
11. Humor: TND. Brosnan had some great lines here. Craig is better with dryer humor like in CR and QOS.
12. The gritty rough stuff: SP. Only because of the train fight and eye gouging.
Easy win for TND. 10-2.
SP was good when I first saw it, but gets weaker with each viewing. I've always enjoyed TND a lot.
-{
...you do know the torture scene isn't Fleming, but Amis? Not that I'm disagreeing with you!
-{
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
-{
About the directing, the long shots aren't the problem, they're quite impressive in my opinion. Rewatch M's first scene in SPECTRE and you will notice that it is almost handheld but miles better than the M "Enjoying Death" scene in Skyfall. Did the cameraman have to pee or what?
To work then...
1. Bond. TND. - Brosnan is almost at his best here, all the elements are in place and cohesive. Craig is trying to be "Damaged" Bond again or Rather Blofeld is. - BORING!!
2. Action. TND delivers the goods, ok it had budget on its side. It has "Wow!" in a classic Bond way. SP Esp that car chase and the big boom are lackluster. I actually thought "Really? That's it, that's all?!"
3. Music. TND - David Arnold is brilliant and the title song memorable. Sam Who, and the bloke who did Finding Nemo? Eesh.
4. Story. TND. Media Baron baddie? original at the time and relevant.
5. Villain. TND More screen time, more great dialog, Carver is beautifully realised.
6. Bond Girl. SP Admittedly Lea Seydoux does a great job, I like her as Dr Swann. (No offense to the amazing Michelle Yeoh)
7. Cinematography. TND - Because of the locations and the storyline.
8. Editing - Even money. No preference.
9. TND - Hinx is awesome, but underused and thrown away. Dr. Kaufman is funny, and Stamper is menacing and physical.
10. Flemingesque? - Neither! TND is a classic film of the then modern style. SF is self indulgent and flimsy.
11. Humour. TND - Has some good one liners and memorable funny moments. SP tries to hard in the wrong places. "Stage humour."
12. The gritty rough stuff. TND - it has motivation, and plot logic in 007 film style. SP has one long cringe, based on the Cuckoo rubbish.
The Firemass Extension:
13. Q Scene. TND - "Your beautiful new car!!!" "Grow up 007!" Plus Bond with the car. Classic stuff.
14. Car chase. TND. - BMW may be a an "ordinary" car, but the chase is exceptional. SP's DB10 is vile, and underwhelming.
15. Locations. TND. - If feels bigger in scope and scale. SP suffers from more London and Desert! Even the Snow can't save it.
16. Villains Lair TND. Its a Stealth boat. - Lair and vehicle! Blofeld's lab is a giant yet bland (and unoriginal) call centre. BORING!.
17. Overall inclusion. -
TND. A self contained story, with a decent back story element.
SP - Urgh, "Cuckoo" and Craig's over dramatic (implied) Farewell.
TND - 14
SP - 1!
Neither - 1
BORING! - 2 Both Spectre.
Perhaps its notable I have not bothered to buy Spectre yet. The only Bond film I haven't.
Bond - Spectre. Craig delivers a wonderful performance IMO. Some say he is bored, but I think he has just brought his Bond full circle by being more laconic and humour orientated. I love the character development from Casino to Spectre and this is his most comfortale and charismatic performance I think. Man I hope he does another. Brosnan is of course very good in TND but Craig is the better Bond for me and his performance is superior.
Direction - Mendes (SP)
Action - Probably TND. Though I'm not a big fan of the bike/helicopter chase, the rest of the action is pretty solid stuff. Spectre has 2 great action scenes (pre-titles, train fight) which stand above anything in TND, but these aside and the action is reasonably bland.
Cinematography - Spectre easy. I know people complain about the colouring, but the cinematography is one of the films strongest points and is far superior to TND
Score - TND - David Arnold is a superb Bond composer and his score for TND is very imaginative. The score for Spectre is a Skyfall rehash and is one of the weakest.
Plot - Spectre. The biggest weakness of both films. Both have very average story lines. But as much as I hate the foster brother, personal element to the Spectre plot, overall the films story is still a better caper than TND.
Pre-titles - Spectre easily. One of the best pre-titles in the series. TND pre titles is fine but it is rather run of the mill generic 90s action.
Title sequence - TND
Villain - Can't stand Elliot Carver, so Spectre again. Even though Waltz is criminally underused and his character underdeveloped, Carver is one of the weakest in the series. I know some people love his hammy portrayal, but I am a not a fan.
Henchman - Spectre - Hinx is relatively menancing and that train scene is a classsic. Stamper is okay, however he has a bit of generic blonde henchmen about him.
Bond girls - Spectre. Never a fan of Wai Lin and Paris. Madeleine is a great Bond girl and Monica helps beef it up as well. Though she is definitely underused.
Editing - Spectre is edited very well, however it is 20 minutes too long. Not the fault of the editor obviously, so I'll still pay it to Lee Smith.
Bond song - Both are average, but Spectre edges it for me.
Overall: Spectre. I see both films as 2 of the weakest in the franchise and if i was going to rank them now I would have TND at number 23, and Spectre probably around 17. I just think that Spectre still has enough good stuff in there to push it over the top of another weak entry. -{