Why the hate for DAF?

MilleniumForce

I was looking through member's rankings, and I noticed a lot of people had DAF very low. I was wondering, why does it get a lot of hate? I know the obvious ones (Blofeld in drag, Dissapointing end etc) but I would like to know why people dislike it.

I personally like it, it's a fun film and Connery certainly seems more interested here than in YOLT.

Sir Miles

Just because DAF may rank low in some people's lists then it doesn't follow that people "hate" it...they just prefer others -{

HatThrowingHenchman

I don't know, if "hate" applies for many people. For me it doesn't.
but the reasons why I rank it so low are:
1) Connery: he looks like a man from the stonage - aged quite a bit, the eyebows are everywhere
2) Locations: none of them are very exciting, LV could have been the best but it's somehow bland-looking
3) Blofeld: I'd prefered it if Savalas did it
4) disappointing climax/ Blofeld send-off

but there are a few things I very much like:
1) Connery's look when he fights the mashed-potato-guy
2) the use of the 007 action theme-wish they'd bring that back...

am747

I wrote a few posts on the DAF pros and cons thread. I will copy and paste some of those:

After reading DAF, I decided to re-watch DAF .... The book and film are different but I felt like connecting with the film again .... The film felt much better now .... Many of its scenes have been reused in some of the later Bond films for e.g.

a) When Tiffany asks Bond where is he going, he says just popping out before climbing on top of the elevator. Similar situation was created in the PTS of SP where Bond goes out of the window, leaving behind his Mexican GF in the room, to take care of Sciarra (no wonder that PTS appeared so classy)
b) Ford Mustang driving sideways on two wheels has been used in Octopussy and later in LTK for the truck chase
c) The moon buggy escape sequence where Bond steals the bike was recreated in the PTS of AVTAK where Bond is stealing skimobile in a similar way
d) The LV's Sheriff character was repeated in LALD and TMWTGG (Pepper) and in AVTAK (Fire truck chase and Zep)
e) The elevator scene where Bond expects the floor to open up was an inspiration for a similar one in TSWLM
f) The pipe scene in TWINE appears to be inspired by the pipe scene in DAF
g) Bond talks to a rat in the pipe = Bond talks to rat in SP in the room
h) Case moving around in a bikini in the villain's lair was redone in TMWTGG (though such scenes go back to films such as TB and YOLT as well)

DAF has served as a mini template for many scenes in other Bond films

Doing a quick DAF vs SP

Bond's performance: Tie (And both talk to the mouse ) .... DC has to give his best to come close to SC's)

BG(s): SP (Both Plenty and Lucia have short roles vs Case and Swann's)

BV: SP (SP's Blofeld appears more menacing and like the head of SPECTRE)

Henchman / Henchmen: DAF (Wint and Kidd are legends; Hinx was good too though)

Score: DAF

PTS: SP (The exchange with Blofeld is probably more interesting than Sciarra running around and jumping in to a chopper but SP one was longer and an action highlight for the film)

Finale: Oil rig vs London - DAF (exchanging the tapes was more interesting than running around the old MI6 building)

Story: DAF (Uncovering Diamond smuggling leads to something more complex. And a professional assignment for Bond)

Locations: SP

A tie. However, a movie is more than the sum of its parts and includes intangibles

{[]

DAF used to be one of my lower ranked films but now it has climbed in to the top 15 .... If you like SP, there are not too many reasons to dislike DAF .... In fact, I have SP and DAF ranked next to each other

broadshoulder

To be honest many people have it low because...

I don't I saw it Christmas day in 1980 and loved it

They take it too literally. As if Diamonds comes off the line after OHMSS. Its not. Its a completely different animal. More like the Moore films of the seventies. According to Lazenby's bad press and far from expectation box office they had to go back in time. They had to go back to classic Bond, to Goldfinger. So they got the screenwriter, director, John Barry....even Bassey came back. Diamonds was reasserting Bond. It was proving that Bond was number one.

And Blofeld in drag? Cant we forgive them the camp?

am747

broadshoulder wrote:

As if Diamonds comes off the line after OHMSS

The PTS appears more like a continuation of YOLT where Blofeld escapes. Since in YOLT, Blofeld wanted to start WW3, both the CIA and KGB would be after him so he would want to hide and even change his looks

The PTS in FYEO is more like a continuation of OHMSS as it shows a) Bond paying his respects, and b) Blofeld in wheel chair may be due to injuries he suffered at the end in OHMSS

So there could be a misunderstanding wrt to its continuation as well. And if it is a continuation of YOLT, there is no point in criticizing it for being different from OHMSS in tone

If GL had continued, may be DAF would have been a continuation of OHMSS .... For SC, it would make sense to continue from YOLT

broadshoulder

am747 wrote:

broadshoulder wrote:

As if Diamonds comes off the line after OHMSS

The PTS appears more like a continuation of YOLT where Blofeld escapes. Since in YOLT, Blofeld wanted to start WW3, both the CIA and KGB would be after him so he would want to hide and even change his looks

The PTS in FYEO is more like a continuation of OHMSS as it shows a) Bond paying his respects, and b) Blofeld in wheel chair may be due to injuries he suffered at the end in OHMSS

So there could be a misunderstanding wrt to its continuation as well. And if it is a continuation of YOLT, there is no point in criticizing it for being different from OHMSS in tone

If GL had continued, may be DAF would have been a continuation of OHMSS .... For SC, it would make sense to continue from YOLT

Yes exactly Diamonds follows on from YOLT - its as if the touchy feely OHMSS never existed. It took until the eighties for OHMSS to be revaluated

Matt S

am747 wrote:

broadshoulder wrote:

As if Diamonds comes off the line after OHMSS

The PTS appears more like a continuation of YOLT where Blofeld escapes. Since in YOLT, Blofeld wanted to start WW3, both the CIA and KGB would be after him so he would want to hide and even change his looks

The PTS in FYEO is more like a continuation of OHMSS as it shows a) Bond paying his respects, and b) Blofeld in wheel chair may be due to injuries he suffered at the end in OHMSS

So there could be a misunderstanding wrt to its continuation as well. And if it is a continuation of YOLT, there is no point in criticizing it for being different from OHMSS in tone

If GL had continued, may be DAF would have been a continuation of OHMSS .... For SC, it would make sense to continue from YOLT

I always took Blofeld's injury from FYEO to be from being knocked round in the Bath-o-sub. But we could pretend like DAF never happened and not be lost without it.

am747

Yes, OHMSS is more like a standalone film .... I have seen people even write that since Blofeld and Bond met in YOLT, how is it that Blofeld did not recognize Bond in OHMSS )

am747

Matt S wrote:

I always took Blofeld's injury from FYEO to be from being knocked round in the Bath-o-sub. But we could pretend like DAF never happened and not be lost without it.

There are too many loose ends when it comes to Blofeld ) .... In SP he even turned up as related to Bond

Since Bond is shown paying his respects to his wife, it hints at OHMSS ..... while the relatively lighter PTS is DAF appears more like a continuation from YOLT

Gala Brand

I liked the first thirty minutes (until Bond gets to Vegas).

There wouldn't be anything like that in a Bond film again until TLD.

HatThrowingHenchman

you're having a wrong conclusion!
DAF follows OHMSS directly; for example when Bond says "welcome to hell, Blofeld" (look at his smile) or when the guy asks him how his holiday was and he says "most satisfying", it makes it clear that it is a reference to Tracy's death, especially the latter.

am747

HatThrowingHenchman wrote:

you're having a wrong conclusion!
DAF follows OHMSS directly; for example when Bond says "welcome to hell, Blofeld" (look at his smile) or when the guy asks him how his holiday was and he says "most satisfying", it makes it clear that it is a reference to Tracy's death, especially the latter.

Well, Bond could be holidaying after his assignment in Japan and also tracking Blofeld ..... And the satisfaction could be related to avenging Aki's death

May be you missed post #9 where I mentioned - "Yes, OHMSS is more like a standalone film .... I have seen people even write that since Blofeld and Bond met in YOLT, how is it that Blofeld did not recognize Bond in OHMSS"

So if you take DAF as a continuation of OHMSS, you are probably taking the lid off a bigger hole to cover a smaller one

zaphod99

I think that at the time it was popular and from what I have seen was regarded as a welcome return to form after OHMSS (my favourite of all so far). I think it suffers as people, particularly Big Tam fans feel it was not a fitting swan song for him and rather let the side down. Even so, there is much that I really like in it (have I mentioned my fondness for Plenty?...) Also the sub par ending rankles with some. Then there is Tiffany...personally I like her, but many do not. I could go on, Charles Gray Yada Yada, Wint & Kidd Yada Yada, puffy Sean...you get the idea. Still if it comes on TV I'll happily watch it and moan a bit :v

HatThrowingHenchman

it was once mentioned that the disguise Bond uses is better than we see it, if you know what I mean.
or it could be that the producers forgot about that aspect, too.

Not everything's entirely logical, think abou when Lazar in TMWTGG says to Bond, that his reputation proceeds him, not really handy for a secret agen, is it? )

am747

HatThrowingHenchman wrote:

it was once mentioned that the disguise Bond uses is better than we see it, if you know what I mean.
or it could be that the producers forgot about that aspect, too.

I have only read first 4 Fleming books so far but OHMSS was published prior to YOLT:

11. On Her Majesty’s Secret Service - 1963
12. You Only Live Twice - 1964

Not everything's entirely logical, think abou when Lazar in TMWTGG says to Bond, that his reputation proceeds him, not really handy for a secret agen, is it? )

Not really! Scaramanga, SPECTRE (FRWL), Goldfinger, etc. know about (or heard of) Bond too .... Many of those who are on the other side or doing special services would know about Bond

HatThrowingHenchman

am747 wrote:

HatThrowingHenchman wrote:

it was once mentioned that the disguise Bond uses is better than we see it, if you know what I mean.
or it could be that the producers forgot about that aspect, too.

I have only read first 4 Fleming books so far but OHMSS was published prior to YOLT:

11. On Her Majesty’s Secret Service - 1963
12. You Only Live Twice - 1964

Not everything's entirely logical, think abou when Lazar in TMWTGG says to Bond, that his reputation proceeds him, not really handy for a secret agen, is it? )

Not really! Scaramanga, SPECTRE (FRWL), Goldfinger, etc. know about (or heard of) Bond too .... Many of those who are on the other side or doing special services would know about Bond

yes, but they only (with exeption of Scaramanga) had information on Bond after he interfered in their businesses, Lazar was a civilian.

am747

HatThrowingHenchman wrote:

yes, but they only (with exeption of Scaramanga) had information on Bond after he interfered in their businesses, Lazar was a civilian.

A civilian with special contacts and information

HatThrowingHenchman

I think we came a bit off topic anyway )

Theundeadkennedy

I'm not sure about DAF and where it falls in the timeline, but I do not believe OHMSS is a stand alone film. The events of OHMSS are mentioned in TSWLM.

am747

Theundeadkennedy wrote:

I'm not sure about DAF and where it falls in the timeline, but I do not believe OHMSS is a stand alone film. The events of OHMSS are mentioned in TSWLM.

A standalone film at that point (YOLT to DAF timeline) unless seen as a prequel to YOLT .... Also OHMSS was supposed to be made earlier but due to unfavorable weather conditions (something like that is mentioned in the special features of OHMSS), the producers decided to continue with YOLT

HatThrowingHenchman

one last thing I forgot to mention: maybe the reason why Blofeld doesn't recognise Bond is because in early drafts of the script Bond was supposed to have undergone plastic surgery and when the producers decided to drop that they didn't think of the consequences this would have in their script.

am747

HatThrowingHenchman wrote:

one last thing I forgot to mention: maybe the reason why Blofeld doesn't recognise Bond is because in early drafts of the script Bond was supposed to have undergone plastic surgery and when the producers decided to drop that they didn't think of the consequences this would have in their script.

Because of the confusion and hearsay, it only strengthens the point that OHMSS should be seen as a stand alone film in the YOLT to DAF timeline .... If GL had continued, YOLT would have a had stronger case of being seen as a stand alone film

When OHMSS was being made, the producers also did not know that GL would not continue and that SC would return .... So it would make sense to not worry too much about plastic surgery and see YOLT as a stand alone. However, since things did not go as planned, OHMSS becomes the stand alone film

am747

Just read a few things on OHMSS and DAF on Wiki:


"Broccoli and Saltzman had originally intended to make On Her Majesty's Secret Service after Goldfinger and Richard Maibaum worked on a script at that time. However, Thunderball was filmed instead after the ongoing rights dispute over the novel were settled between Fleming and Kevin McClory. On Her Majesty's Secret Service was due to follow that, but problems with a warm Swiss winter and inadequate snow cover led to Saltzman and Broccoli postponing the film again, favouring production of You Only Live Twice.

Between the resignation of Sean Connery at the beginning of filming You Only Live Twice and its release, Saltzman had planned to adapt The Man with the Golden Gun in Cambodia and use Roger Moore as the next Bond, but political instability meant the location was ruled out and Moore signed up for another series of The Saint. After You Only Live Twice was released in 1967, the producers once again picked up with On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

Peter Hunt, who had worked on the five preceding films had impressed Broccoli and Saltzman enough to earn his directorial debut as they believed his quick cutting had set the style for the series. Hunt was focused on putting his mark – "I wanted it to be different than any other Bond film would be. It was my film, not anyone else's."


"When George Lazenby departed from the role prior to the film's release, a complete rewrite of Diamonds Are Forever was requested, in addition to Maibaum's script failing to impress Albert R. Broccoli and Harry Saltzman. Following this, an original plot had as a villain Auric Goldfinger's twin, seeking revenge for the death of his brother. The plot was later changed after Albert R. Broccoli had a dream, where his close friend Howard Hughes was replaced by an imposter. So the character of Willard Whyte was created, and Tom Mankiewicz was chosen to rework the script"


So the above helps to remove many of the doubts and goes with the suggestion that OHMSS should ideally be seen as a stand alone film in the YOLT to DAF timeline


{[]

MilleniumForce

am747 wrote:

The PTS appears more like a continuation of YOLT where Blofeld escapes. Since in YOLT, Blofeld wanted to start WW3, both the CIA and KGB would be after him so he would want to hide and even change his looks

The PTS in FYEO is more like a continuation of OHMSS as it shows a) Bond paying his respects, and b) Blofeld in wheel chair may be due to injuries he suffered at the end in OHMSS

So there could be a misunderstanding wrt to its continuation as well. And if it is a continuation of YOLT, there is no point in criticizing it for being different from OHMSS in tone

If GL had continued, may be DAF would have been a continuation of OHMSS .... For SC, it would make sense to continue from YOLT

And that's why I believe the order is YOLT, DAF and then OHMSS. Blofeld used doubles in YOLT and DAF, without even SPECTRE knowing.

Agent Purple

I love me some campy Bond, as my ranking should give away.

My main problem with DAF might be that I find it to be "camp done wrong". In attempting to be funny, I feel that what it gives is poor comedy.

I feel that the camp was executed much better with L&LD and the 3 Moore films after that.

Plus, I don't like Connery's performance (imo the single worst performance by a Bond actor), or Grey's Blofeld, or Tiffany Case, or Plenty O' Toole.

I won't say that I hate DAF, but it's easily my least fave EON Bond film.

am747

Agent Purple wrote:

My main problem with DAF might be that I find it to be "camp done wrong". In attempting to be funny, I feel that what it gives is poor comedy.

I feel that the camp was executed much better with L&LD and the 3 Moore films after that.

How can DAF = the "camp" done wrong when "LALD and the 3 Moore films" (your comparison is with RM's films) were released after it .... It would appear to go wrong to you if you watched those films earlier and later compared them with DAF which probably started that trend

Suggesting that DAF = camp done wrong, may be equivalent to suggesting that DN = Bond formula gone wrong after comparing it with GF and TB, and probably ignoring the timeline :007)

HatThrowingHenchman

I always wondered how the GF plot would have worked

Agent Purple

am747, I think you're making the universe implode, lol. )

I mean, I love Guy Hamilton, he's my 3rd fave Bond director, and I love 3 out of his 4 Bond films. DAF is the only Bond film of his that gives me a headache.

am747

Agent Purple wrote:

DAF is the only Bond film of his that gives me a headache

Now that can be counted as a valid reason (As every film cannot connect with everyone)

am747

HatThrowingHenchman wrote:

I always wondered how the GF plot would have worked

It would also be like - one brother liked dealing in gold and the other in diamonds )