It may have been mentioned already, but IMO AVTAK could never have worked as a Dalton film.It simply is a typical Moore (not negative) movie.If you were to alter it in favour of Dalton, a lot of things would have to be changed and I mean A LOT!
starting with the Moore-humour, the character names-wordplay, Bond wrestling naked with May Day....
aswell I believe that Walken as Zorin would have been too big for a new actor in the role, he would have stolen the show.
I think Moore's age had nothing to do with the BO-success, he was Widely accepted as Bind back then.
so to sum it up changing AVTAK into a Dalton film would be like changing DAD into a Craig film.
Changes are fine .... You are writing if changing things is not possible .... DAF was changed a lot for SC, LALD was adapted for RM so there is no reason why AVTAK could not be adapted for TD :007)
I'm saying that the changes for AVTAK w/ Dalton would have to be so fundamentaly that I the end all that would be in common would be the title and some key plot scenes and maybe the villain.
so it would make an entirely different film.
"You see Mr.Bond, you can't kill my dreams...but my dreams can kill you.Time to face destiny" - "Time to face gravity"
I'm saying that the changes for AVTAK w/ Dalton would have to be so fundamentaly that I the end all that would be in common would be the title and some key plot scenes and maybe the villain.
so it would make an entirely different film.
Not necessarily .... But even if it is fundamental, so what? Esp. if it works out better? .... Bond's franchise has the experience in doing that
but then it would just be a movie called AVTAK starring T.Dalton. I thought the under-topic was "could it have been altered..."
You are mistaking your opinion with others' .... It is you who thinks it would have changed fundamentally .... While I think that keeping the basis plot as it is with changes suitable to Dalton it would have worked well .... And even if the film is changed fundamentally, if it works for better why not? As for now, even though AVTAK is a Bond film, it has seriously under-performed at the BO as a RM film with even RM listing it as its least favorite for various reasons
of course it is my opinion, never claimed anything else ?:)
Basically, I don't give anything about the BO numbers, I don't think they have a big relevance on a Bond movie (like TB or SF - both very successful, but still there are some how like it and some who don't).
No, I don't have a problem with the proposed fundamental change, but then we might aswell could be discussing a third outing in the early 90's.
"You see Mr.Bond, you can't kill my dreams...but my dreams can kill you.Time to face destiny" - "Time to face gravity"
of course it is my opinion, never claimed anything else ?:)
I responded to this:
but then it would just be a movie called AVTAK starring T.Dalton. I thought the under-topic was "could it have been altered..."
^ So you in a way wrote as if other people's opinion including mine is that AVTAK would have or need to be changed fundamentally
Basically, I don't give anything about the BO numbers, I don't think they have a big relevance on a Bond movie (like TB or SF - both very successful, but still there are some how like it and some who don't).
No, I don't have a problem with the proposed fundamental change, but then we might as well could be discussing a third outing in the early 90's.
That's fine .... However, a change is usually proposed when something original may not have worked as expected. RM was replaced as he was expected to deliver as per various expectations. Otherwise, we could have a 60+ years old RM in LTK. Dalton would have been forced to continue despite how his last film performed at BO, etc.
Changes are driven by monitoring the performance indicators which includes BO numbers, actor's performance and age, critical response, etc :007)
but we may agree that adalton would have deserved another film? :007)
Yes, of course! {[]
The only question is which one? If it is a completely new film, then it is ok. There is no need for a discussion.
On the other hand, if we are picking the films from the existing Bond films collection and considering the order of their release, then it is b/w AVTAK (w/ LTK as his 3rd film) and GE (as the third film). Now if we have to take one film away from a Bond actor, of the two films, AVTAK has a stronger case of being given to Dalton based on factors such as BO gross numbers (as compared to RM's avg of other films), age of the Bond actor, Bond actors' own comment and rating of his film, etc.
Now if we say that Dalton should have done all four films from AVTAK to GE, it would be an interesting topic to discuss as well
I would very much like to read the script for Bond 17 w/ Dalton that sold at an auction this year. It featured Bond in Hong Kong and Anthony Hopkins as the villain. I believe zhat would be a very interesting read.
"You see Mr.Bond, you can't kill my dreams...but my dreams can kill you.Time to face destiny" - "Time to face gravity"
I would very much like to read the script for Bond 17 w/ Dalton that sold at an auction this year. It featured Bond in Hong Kong and Anthony Hopkins as the villain. I believe zhat would be a very interesting read.
Elements of it were eventually used (or turned / refined in to) in GoldenEye. Hopkins's character (one of Bond's mentors) evolved in to Bean's (Bond's colleague) .... The chemical factor elements were used in the PTS
yes, heard that. the PTS was set in scottland and would have been quite similar to GE.
the thing I very much like about Dalton is how he cared about the character.
"You see Mr.Bond, you can't kill my dreams...but my dreams can kill you.Time to face destiny" - "Time to face gravity"
yes, heard that. the PTS was set in scottland and would have been quite similar to GE.
the thing I very much like about Dalton is how he cared about the character.
Despite the legal issues and delays, at the end of the day, if LTK had been a bigger hit than it was, we could have seen TD for the 3rd
Anyways, 2nd film of many Bond actors has usually grossed less than the first:
* For RM, LALD > TMWTGG (but RM never reached LALD level, a crazy hit at BO, even though he had another iconic hit in TSWLM. To be fair till SF and now SP, no Bond film came close to TB, GF, LALD, YOLT and TSWLM's BO numbers)
* For PB, GE > TND
* For DC, CR > QoS
) )
Nobody would have sailed the EON tanker so well thru the 70s and 80s like Sir Roger.
He was the branding, he was the one the masses wanted to see, he was the star.
Replacing him after at MWTGG is just a silly idea!
Am747, it's like playing a football manager on PS3 compared to real life what you are doing
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
) )
Nobody would have sailed the EON tanker so well thru the 70s and 80s like Sir Roger.
He was the branding, he was the one the masses wanted to see, he was the star.
Replacing him after at MWTGG is just a silly idea!
I never implied that RM should have been replaced after his 2nd film. My point was that the producers should have given TD the 3rd rather than mainly focusing on the numbers of his 2nd film
Below is what I have written about Moore. I am sure you would agree:
Connery and Moore are the top two Bonds. They are like Ferrari and Lamborghini (or Aston if you prefer). Others are like Porsche, Maserati, etc. Porsches and Maseratis are great cars but there is something different about Ferraris and Lamborghinis
Am747, it's like playing a football manager on PS3 compared to real life what you are doing
Based on all the evidence - whether on PS3 or real life. (and not "what I believe in" or "what my perception or taste is" passed on as a real world scenario), I would say that RM was the best person to move the franchise forward in the 70s .... Despite being younger than RM, SC looked too old to be Bond and continue the franchise. RM was the best bet in the 70s -{
Now by saying that, I hope, a SC fanboy would not term me as being on the PS3 and ignoring real world )
As with SC in the 70s, RM looked old in the mid-80s, TD was the better option at that point and I believe that he deserved a 3rd .... And AVTAK could have been better with TD .... That's all I am saying by trying to be as neutral as possible
I disagree that AVTAK could have been better with Dalton. It was mentioned before, it would need to be a very different film if Dalton were in it. We don't know what that film would have been with Dalton, and if he did the same film that Moore did it would not have been any better.
I disagree that AVTAK could have been better with Dalton. It was mentioned before, it would need to be a very different film if Dalton were in it. We don't know what that film would have been with Dalton, and if he did the same film that Moore did it would not have been any better.
Many people say that DAF with GL and revenge theme could have worked better than DAF with SF and its campy theme (I like DAF with SC though. The BO gross is also excellent for that film) .... Similarly, AVTAK adapted to TD's style (like DAF was to SC's) could have done better .... Now my point is not based on the limits of my ability to imagine but on some evidence that I have already posted
Imo, a large part of TLD's relative 8-) box office success was the (sort of) reboot - just like CR.
So I agree, AVTAK adopted for another actor would have failed.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Imo, a large part of TLD's relative 8-) box office success was the (sort of) reboot - just like CR.
So I agree, AVTAK adopted for another actor would have failed.
Expected comments from the "President of the 'Tim Dalton Misty-Eyed Fan Club'"
What about the relative BO failure of AVTAK compared to the success of RM's other films. It would suggest that it did not work as expected in the first place 8-)
Imo, the lack of AVTAK's success has several components.
First of all the locations have not been exotic enough.
Then Moore's age was certainly an issue
So where many of the stunts and jokes, which became quite generic in the Glen age.
There was certainly the time for a younger actor and some more serious tone - and imo also for a new director!
Also choosing Grace Jones was not a smart move imo.
My main problem was the main actor that followed was too sentimental and too puppy-eyed.
He never convinced me and to me he was the guy everybody laughed at in the schoolclass because he pretented to be cool but wasn't.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
That being said, AVTAK still has many enjoyable moments
- the PTS minus the California girls and the creepy flirting
- Jenny Flex!!
- the Chateau Chantilly locations and the banter with McNee
- The Papillion Sequence and Dominique!
- The Eiffel fight minus the obviously visible stuntman
- Walken was a phantastic villain
- The Horse Race scenes are pretty good!
- The SFO locations
- The title song and the titles
- Tracey minus the annoying screaming
- I quite enjoyed the fact that he did not join her the first night.
- and of course Barry's score
To be continued
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Imo, the lack of AVTAK's success has several components.
First of all the locations have not been exotic enough.
Then Moore's age was certainly an issue
So where many of the stunts and jokes, which became quite generic in the Glen age.
There was certainly the time for a younger actor and some more serious tone - and imo also for a new director!
Also choosing Grace Jones was not a smart move imo.
My main problem was the main actor that followed was too sentimental and too puppy-eyed.
He never convinced me and to me he was the guy everybody laughed at in the schoolclass because he pretented to be cool but wasn't.
So in a nutshell you agree that AVTAK would have worked better with a younger actor considering the potential to make the film with more stunts, action, dark (change in tone), etc. .... However, being the president of 'Tim Dalton Misty-Eyed Fan Club', you cannot approve of TD .... Anyways, that is a good start -{
On RM, overall, he did a good job in the film at that age. However, the BO gross of AVTAK is too low for a RM Bond film so it would appear that the producers were not proactive enough and tried to milk RM one more time .... I guess, even the fans would have perceived that AVTAK would be RM's final outing but the fact they did not go out to make the film a bigger hit probably shows that RM had passed the point where he should have been replaced
Talking about BO numbers, AVTAK grossed more than $100M (adjusted) less than OP. And just 55% of the avg gross per film of RM previous films. It is just above LTK. Those are low numbers of a RM Bond film .... As a RM fan, I would have liked him to quit after OP
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
edited December 2015
For my own taste, Dalton should have debuted with OP, and made Bonds into the early '90s...but Cubby's loyalty to Moore made the former impossible, and Eon's forced hiatus after LTK made the latter equally so. Both OP and AVTAK have solid stories at their core.
Come to think of it, I'd also rather Glen had been a one-off director, and departed after FYEO :v Dalton would have benefitted from a different director.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
For my own taste, Dalton should have debuted with OP, and made Bonds into the early '90s
Ideally, a change in OP would have been nice esp. since the film has a lot of action and adventure elements that worked well for TD in TLD. However, considering the competition from NASA, the producers would have been tempted to continue with RM. So giving that benefit to EON and putting OP in the grey area .... Realistically, there were not too many reasons to not replace RM in AVTAK, which per RM's quote is his least fav Bond film
PS
In a December 2007 interview, Roger Moore remarked, "I was only about four hundred years too old for the part. Moore also stated that, at the time, A View to a Kill was his least favourite film, and mentioned that he was mortified to find out that he was older than his female co-star's mother.
Moore was quoted saying "I was horrified on the last Bond I did. Whole slews of sequences where Christopher Walken was machine-gunning hundreds of people. I said 'That wasn't Bond, those weren't Bond films.' It stopped being what they were all about. You didn't dwell on the blood and the brains spewing all over the place"
You must give me the name of your occularist.
So I can avoid him. )
Few here can be more pro Tim than I am, but even if can see his looks and hair were starting to fade. I recall a TV interview mid period where he talks about doing a third and he mentions that he might need a rug if the wait is much longer. I agree with Grassy, Dalton was cast too late, he should have been Bond sooner.
I couldn't disagree more about Dalton's looks. I recently saw this movie shot in 1996/1997 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118691/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_28. He looks better in it than in TLD and LTK. More muscular, and roughly the same hair as in LTK.
The perfect film for Dalton to step in would have been FYEO. I can't see him in GE though, just because he wouldn't have been confortable in that kind of movie. It's the opposite of what he tried to accomplish as Bond.
My main problem was the main actor that followed was too sentimental and too puppy-eyed.
He never convinced me and to me he was the guy everybody laughed at in the schoolclass because he pretented to be cool but wasn't.
Wow, somebody drank a cocktail of piss and vinegar this morning...
The perfect film for Dalton to step in would have been FYEO. I can't see him in GE though, just because he wouldn't have been confortable in that kind of movie. It's the opposite of what he tried to accomplish as Bond.
I agree with you on this. His playing against Xenia, Trevelyan and Boris would be off..
1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
My main problem was the main actor that followed was too sentimental and too puppy-eyed.
He never convinced me and to me he was the guy everybody laughed at in the schoolclass because he pretented to be cool but wasn't.
Wow, somebody drank a cocktail of piss and vinegar this morning...
There's no need to be so bloody rude. He was expressing his opinion.
1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
Comments
Changes are fine .... You are writing if changing things is not possible .... DAF was changed a lot for SC, LALD was adapted for RM so there is no reason why AVTAK could not be adapted for TD :007)
so it would make an entirely different film.
Not necessarily .... But even if it is fundamental, so what? Esp. if it works out better? .... Bond's franchise has the experience in doing that
You are mistaking your opinion with others' .... It is you who thinks it would have changed fundamentally .... While I think that keeping the basis plot as it is with changes suitable to Dalton it would have worked well .... And even if the film is changed fundamentally, if it works for better why not? As for now, even though AVTAK is a Bond film, it has seriously under-performed at the BO as a RM film with even RM listing it as its least favorite for various reasons
Basically, I don't give anything about the BO numbers, I don't think they have a big relevance on a Bond movie (like TB or SF - both very successful, but still there are some how like it and some who don't).
No, I don't have a problem with the proposed fundamental change, but then we might aswell could be discussing a third outing in the early 90's.
I responded to this:
^ So you in a way wrote as if other people's opinion including mine is that AVTAK would have or need to be changed fundamentally
That's fine .... However, a change is usually proposed when something original may not have worked as expected. RM was replaced as he was expected to deliver as per various expectations. Otherwise, we could have a 60+ years old RM in LTK. Dalton would have been forced to continue despite how his last film performed at BO, etc.
Changes are driven by monitoring the performance indicators which includes BO numbers, actor's performance and age, critical response, etc :007)
Yes, of course! {[]
The only question is which one? If it is a completely new film, then it is ok. There is no need for a discussion.
On the other hand, if we are picking the films from the existing Bond films collection and considering the order of their release, then it is b/w AVTAK (w/ LTK as his 3rd film) and GE (as the third film). Now if we have to take one film away from a Bond actor, of the two films, AVTAK has a stronger case of being given to Dalton based on factors such as BO gross numbers (as compared to RM's avg of other films), age of the Bond actor, Bond actors' own comment and rating of his film, etc.
Now if we say that Dalton should have done all four films from AVTAK to GE, it would be an interesting topic to discuss as well
Elements of it were eventually used (or turned / refined in to) in GoldenEye. Hopkins's character (one of Bond's mentors) evolved in to Bean's (Bond's colleague) .... The chemical factor elements were used in the PTS
the thing I very much like about Dalton is how he cared about the character.
Despite the legal issues and delays, at the end of the day, if LTK had been a bigger hit than it was, we could have seen TD for the 3rd
Anyways, 2nd film of many Bond actors has usually grossed less than the first:
* For RM, LALD > TMWTGG (but RM never reached LALD level, a crazy hit at BO, even though he had another iconic hit in TSWLM. To be fair till SF and now SP, no Bond film came close to TB, GF, LALD, YOLT and TSWLM's BO numbers)
* For PB, GE > TND
* For DC, CR > QoS
Nobody would have sailed the EON tanker so well thru the 70s and 80s like Sir Roger.
He was the branding, he was the one the masses wanted to see, he was the star.
Replacing him after at MWTGG is just a silly idea!
Am747, it's like playing a football manager on PS3 compared to real life what you are doing
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I never implied that RM should have been replaced after his 2nd film. My point was that the producers should have given TD the 3rd rather than mainly focusing on the numbers of his 2nd film
Below is what I have written about Moore. I am sure you would agree:
Based on all the evidence - whether on PS3 or real life. (and not "what I believe in" or "what my perception or taste is" passed on as a real world scenario), I would say that RM was the best person to move the franchise forward in the 70s .... Despite being younger than RM, SC looked too old to be Bond and continue the franchise. RM was the best bet in the 70s -{
Now by saying that, I hope, a SC fanboy would not term me as being on the PS3 and ignoring real world
As with SC in the 70s, RM looked old in the mid-80s, TD was the better option at that point and I believe that he deserved a 3rd .... And AVTAK could have been better with TD .... That's all I am saying by trying to be as neutral as possible
Many people say that DAF with GL and revenge theme could have worked better than DAF with SF and its campy theme (I like DAF with SC though. The BO gross is also excellent for that film) .... Similarly, AVTAK adapted to TD's style (like DAF was to SC's) could have done better .... Now my point is not based on the limits of my ability to imagine but on some evidence that I have already posted
But we can agree to disagree {[]
So I agree, AVTAK adopted for another actor would have failed.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Expected comments from the "President of the 'Tim Dalton Misty-Eyed Fan Club'"
What about the relative BO failure of AVTAK compared to the success of RM's other films. It would suggest that it did not work as expected in the first place 8-)
First of all the locations have not been exotic enough.
Then Moore's age was certainly an issue
So where many of the stunts and jokes, which became quite generic in the Glen age.
There was certainly the time for a younger actor and some more serious tone - and imo also for a new director!
Also choosing Grace Jones was not a smart move imo.
My main problem was the main actor that followed was too sentimental and too puppy-eyed.
He never convinced me and to me he was the guy everybody laughed at in the schoolclass because he pretented to be cool but wasn't.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
- the PTS minus the California girls and the creepy flirting
- Jenny Flex!!
- the Chateau Chantilly locations and the banter with McNee
- The Papillion Sequence and Dominique!
- The Eiffel fight minus the obviously visible stuntman
- Walken was a phantastic villain
- The Horse Race scenes are pretty good!
- The SFO locations
- The title song and the titles
- Tracey minus the annoying screaming
- I quite enjoyed the fact that he did not join her the first night.
- and of course Barry's score
To be continued
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
So in a nutshell you agree that AVTAK would have worked better with a younger actor considering the potential to make the film with more stunts, action, dark (change in tone), etc. .... However, being the president of 'Tim Dalton Misty-Eyed Fan Club', you cannot approve of TD .... Anyways, that is a good start -{
On RM, overall, he did a good job in the film at that age. However, the BO gross of AVTAK is too low for a RM Bond film so it would appear that the producers were not proactive enough and tried to milk RM one more time .... I guess, even the fans would have perceived that AVTAK would be RM's final outing but the fact they did not go out to make the film a bigger hit probably shows that RM had passed the point where he should have been replaced
Talking about BO numbers, AVTAK grossed more than $100M (adjusted) less than OP. And just 55% of the avg gross per film of RM previous films. It is just above LTK. Those are low numbers of a RM Bond film
Come to think of it, I'd also rather Glen had been a one-off director, and departed after FYEO :v Dalton would have benefitted from a different director.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Ideally, a change in OP would have been nice esp. since the film has a lot of action and adventure elements that worked well for TD in TLD. However, considering the competition from NASA, the producers would have been tempted to continue with RM. So giving that benefit to EON and putting OP in the grey area .... Realistically, there were not too many reasons to not replace RM in AVTAK, which per RM's quote is his least fav Bond film
PS
I couldn't disagree more about Dalton's looks. I recently saw this movie shot in 1996/1997 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118691/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_28. He looks better in it than in TLD and LTK. More muscular, and roughly the same hair as in LTK.
Wow, somebody drank a cocktail of piss and vinegar this morning...
I agree with you on this. His playing against Xenia, Trevelyan and Boris would be off..
There's no need to be so bloody rude. He was expressing his opinion.