I think gravitas suits TD as a description he has a presence all his own, I think he could have done 3 or 4 films and people would have caught on to him, I like all the bonds for different reasons. But Dalton just has his own......gravitas
Dalton is great in "Penny Dreadful". He really commands the screen and still looks convincing kicking butt. Dalton, with a little help in the hair department and a little more time in the gym looks like he could pull off Bond in his twilight. The guy still has an amazing speaking voice. He has aged very gracefully.
Dalton is great in "Penny Dreadful". He really commands the screen and still looks convincing kicking butt. Dalton, with a little help in the hair department and a little more time in the gym looks like he could pull off Bond in his twilight. The guy still has an amazing speaking voice. He has aged very gracefully.
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Not seen PD yet, but you have whetted my appetite. Thanks.
Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.
I said 18-34-year-old white males were the sweet spot, not the only one, and that additional audiences of importance tend to track down (were younger, which would include the teens you refer to) rather than up. In other words, most films are created to appeal primarily to the 18-34-year-old white male and, additionally, those younger. This was certainly true in the 1980s when I took marketing courses. It's true now. Note that that is white males (and straight rather than gay). Not families, not women, not minorities. This has been the standard in film marketing in general in both the U.S. and Europe for decades. Only more recently is Hollywood waking up to the idea that there are other audiences. For instance, China is now a much bigger market, and there is growing recognition of women and minorities in the U.S. As white audiences continue to shrink, we will see more and more films aimed at audiences mostly ignored in the past.
I have not countered that "18-34" point yet ) .... My point was that my earlier post was in response to your "teen" comment. Teen's demographics is 13-19 not 18-34 years old white male which you are "now" discussing
Also 18-34 white male demographics could be broken down in to Bond fans and general fans for whom marketing initiatives are important
I don't rate Licence to Kill very highly, nor do I recall ever feeling that way. I was disappointed with the film when it came out. I feel much better about The Living Daylights, which is not a bad film at all and has many of the elements I want in a Bond film. But it, too, didn't quite accomplish the job.
Good to get this clarification .... However, I am surprised that you recommended LTK, a film that you don't rate highly, as one of Dalton's films to be realized after some film in your earlier hypothesis on the order of TD films
The overall point, though, is that teens were not a small sample size by any stretch, then or now, and as I suggested when saying teens routinely went to see R-rated films, were certainly a large part of the mix regardless of who the films were aimed at.
We are speaking "relatively". You yourself shifted to "18-34 years old white male" demographics vs 13-19 years implying that the former is a larger one for e.g.
One last point about marketing: First, it starts with conception. The base principle of marketing is to find an audience and fulfill a need that it has. So, the question becomes what do 18-to-34-year-old straight white males (and those younger) want to see? For years, the standard has been a white hero, a white love interest, a villain outside the social norm for white culture, a minority or two in supporting roles to avoid the issue of racism, sex and violence (in the U.S., violence tends to be more acceptable), lots of special effects, some stunts, some chases, some explosions, and a happy ending when the guy gets the girl and by implication they and their culture are superior. That's everything from Bond to Die Hard to Iron Man to Batman Begins to Star Trek. Of course, there are exceptions, but they are just that -- a variation on the formula. The lens still tends to be "What does an 18-34-year-old white male want to see?"
It is "understood" how the film would have been conceived .... this is not a key point of discussion
Advertising is a paid tool in marketing. In other words, spending money on commercials and advertisements. Promotion is the unpaid tool. In other words, having actors show up on talk shows or at comic conventions to promote the films. Both are important, but neither tends to polish a turd, as they used to say. For instance, Disney spent hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising both The Lone Ranger and John Carter of Mars, which were box office disasters. Licence to Kill may have had less-than-stellar advertising compared to previous films, but it was also viewed as a turd by many people, especially 18-to-34-year-old white males and teens of the era. They avoided it and instead spent their money on movies like Batman and Indiana Jones. I remember. I was there. Word of mouth on film was don't bother -- it's just a lame Miami Vice episode. I don't know how a mass media campaign would have turned that around.
Facts:
* LTK's opening weekend gross is among the lowest for Bond films. In fact, it is 20% lower than TLD's ----> This is where marketing initiatives relating to advertising and promotions play a key role. Also a large portion of the family audiences could have been drawn in to make LTK one of their summer picks, highlighting the importance of perception about certification and violence
* LTK's suffered on the A&P front. Examples include posters printed as Licence Revoked
* As you said, the movie competed with IJ and Batman, so there were other factors in play as well
* If I am not wrong, no 007 film since LTK has been released in summer in the US (an example of lesson learned)
So how would a better marketing initiative, along with other factors, helped LTK? By following:
* Improved its opening weekend gross by generating additional hype about the film
* Market research (marketing) would have helped to determine the most appropriate release date
* TD's performance could have been leveraged upon which would have helped the film to differentiate itself from the likes of Miami Vice or whatever
* Promotions could have helped generate a better word of mouth
* Quality of Bond films is proven. However, since LTK is a relatively different type of Bond film that aspect needed to be communicated too, helping to ease audiences in to a different type of Bond film and also generate a better WoM
* etc, etc, etc
Since you took a course on marketing, I am surprised that we have to get in to such basics
Anyways {[]
You forget the biggest marketing blunder EON made in the 80s: letting it be known that Pierce Brosnan was a contender, and he would replace Roger Moore. Everybody, including me, saw him as the next James Bond. Then Dalton came along. He did a couple of good movies, but I remember we still wanted Brosnan. That weakened Dalton's BO pull a lot. My guess is if Brosnan had been cast in 1986, TLD and LTK would have both been more successful.
Come the 90s and EON (and Brosnan) had learnt their lesson. One, give the audience what they want. Brosnan? there you have him. Two. Don't tell a soul who's going to play Bond until the very day it's announced to the press, because **** happens (network contracts and such, ask Pierce...)
However, it took me 5 minutes of GE to begin missing Dalton. And 5 minutes of CR to stop missing him.
You forget the biggest marketing blunder EON made in the 80s: letting it be known that Pierce Brosnan was a contender, and he would replace Roger Moore. Everybody, including me, saw him as the next James Bond. Then Dalton came along. He did a couple of good movies, but I remember we still wanted Brosnan. That weakened Dalton's BO pull a lot. My guess is if Brosnan had been cast in 1986, TLD and LTK would have both been more successful.
Thats not my memory at all
It featured a "new James Bond segment" on the BBC news. Ooooh its him out of Flash Gordon. He'll be good. We had none of this Pierce rigmarole at all..
We had none of this Pierce doesn't get the job due to Remington Steele until later.
1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
In the U.S., there was a fair amount of speculation that Brosnan would be playing Bond, and I recall newspaper articles discussing the issue long before Dalton was cast. Though he was coy about it, the subject came up even in this 1985 interview on the Letterman Show, where Brosnan denies being offered the role after lots of anticipation from media:
Coca Cola even contracted with Brosnan to do Diet Coke commercials, apparently in anticipation of his getting the role (they debuted in 1987 around the same time as The Living Daylights):
I remember the whole story back then, and watching the last 'season' of Remington Steele cursing NBC the whole time. X-(
BUT... turns out they actually did everyone a favour; we got Dalton's two, & Pierce got the role when he finally looked to be over 30. )
I remember at the time thinking Pierce was a great choice. Then the
shocking news that due to contracts he was out, and some bloke called
Dalton had got the job. quickly watched what I could with him in it
and was very pleased.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
In the U.S., there was a fair amount of speculation that Brosnan would be playing Bond, and I recall newspaper articles discussing the issue long before Dalton was cast. Though he was coy about it, the subject came up even in this 1985 interview on the Letterman Show, where Brosnan denies being offered the role after lots of anticipation from media:
Coca Cola even contracted with Brosnan to do Diet Coke commercials, apparently in anticipation of his getting the role (they debuted in 1987 around the same time as The Living Daylights):
In the U.S., there was a fair amount of speculation that Brosnan would be playing Bond, and I recall newspaper articles discussing the issue long before Dalton was cast. Though he was coy about it, the subject came up even in this 1985 interview on the Letterman Show, where Brosnan denies being offered the role after lots of anticipation from media:
Coca Cola even contracted with Brosnan to do Diet Coke commercials, apparently in anticipation of his getting the role (they debuted in 1987 around the same time as The Living Daylights):
He doesn't appear to be playing Remington Steele in that Diet Coke commercial. He looks great, by the way. Very much like he did in GE. Perhaps a few less wrinkles,but Bondian enough.
In the U.S., there was a fair amount of speculation that Brosnan would be playing Bond, and I recall newspaper articles discussing the issue long before Dalton was cast. Though he was coy about it, the subject came up even in this 1985 interview on the Letterman Show, where Brosnan denies being offered the role after lots of anticipation from media:
Coca Cola even contracted with Brosnan to do Diet Coke commercials, apparently in anticipation of his getting the role (they debuted in 1987 around the same time as The Living Daylights):
So it happened in the United States then....no other country?
Yes. Mine. No Diet Coke commercials, but rumour had it he would play Bond. If you notice, from then on the new actor is kept very hush-hush. A lot of media speculation, but no official sources. I knew about Brosnan and Craig after the fact.
In the U.S., there was a fair amount of speculation that Brosnan would be playing Bond, and I recall newspaper articles discussing the issue long before Dalton was cast. Though he was coy about it, the subject came up even in this 1985 interview on the Letterman Show, where Brosnan denies being offered the role after lots of anticipation from media:
Coca Cola even contracted with Brosnan to do Diet Coke commercials, apparently in anticipation of his getting the role (they debuted in 1987 around the same time as The Living Daylights):
In the U.S., there was a fair amount of speculation that Brosnan would be playing Bond, and I recall newspaper articles discussing the issue long before Dalton was cast. Though he was coy about it, the subject came up even in this 1985 interview on the Letterman Show, where Brosnan denies being offered the role after lots of anticipation from media:
Coca Cola even contracted with Brosnan to do Diet Coke commercials, apparently in anticipation of his getting the role (they debuted in 1987 around the same time as The Living Daylights):
He doesn't appear to be playing Remington Steele in that Diet Coke commercial. He looks great, by the way. Very much like he did in GE. Perhaps a few less wrinkles,but Bondian enough.
Part of what disappointed me with Goldeneye was this lighter approach he used in the commercial was more to his strength. When he tried to be more serious, it just never worked for me. Brosnan is a very charming actor who is adept at playing more of the Cary Grant types of roles, and the way he chose to play Bond was, to my mind, a miscalculation. The commercial, which is essentially how many people here in the States imagined he would play Bond, shows he could have done better than Moore at the comedy without necessarily losing the cool. I still think he was a better Bond in The Thomas Crown Affair than he ever was in an actual 007 movie, a lot more comfortable and interesting as the character.
In the U.S., there was a fair amount of speculation that Brosnan would be playing Bond, and I recall newspaper articles discussing the issue long before Dalton was cast. Though he was coy about it, the subject came up even in this 1985 interview on the Letterman Show, where Brosnan denies being offered the role after lots of anticipation from media:
Coca Cola even contracted with Brosnan to do Diet Coke commercials, apparently in anticipation of his getting the role (they debuted in 1987 around the same time as The Living Daylights):
He doesn't appear to be playing Remington Steele in that Diet Coke commercial. He looks great, by the way. Very much like he did in GE. Perhaps a few less wrinkles,but Bondian enough.
I still think he was a better Bond in The Thomas Crown Affair than he ever was in an actual 007 movie, a lot more comfortable and interesting as the character.
Yep. I blame that more on the scripts. I think he could have been a more interesting Bond had he been allowed to be.
I disagree about him being most Bondian in The Thomas Crown Affair, he's far too smooth in the sense he just does come across as he did in that Diet Coke ad - which is more of a Bond piss-take.
To me, Pierce's most Bondian performance is in TND and his best performance (acting wise) is in TWINE.
I do think he was best as Bond in Tomorrow Never Dies. But he was a "junk drawer" Bond in the sense that his characterization seemed cobbled together from too many sources. He tried to be dark and tough like Dalton, funny like Moore, suave like Connery, and so forth. It was all over the place, and the writing followed suit. He would, I think, have been far more entertaining had he made the character his own, which is why his natural inclination toward light comedy is where I think he would done the best. As it stands, he has his fans, but I think it was a missed opportunity on his part. He had the looks. But not the performance to be truly iconic. IMHO. )
I do think he was best as Bond in Tomorrow Never Dies.
Agreed. But he was also great (in a lacking film) in DAD.
The scenes that were well written he's good, but some other scenes he seems to me, uncomfortable. He's got this confused, out of place look on his face.
I believe the critical reception would have been positive, possibly above 80% on Rotten Tomatoes. All the issues that people had with Dalton's serious approach in The Living Daylights, or the overly violent Licence To Kill would have been dramatically improved. They were saying that 'The Property Of A Lady' would have featured Robert Brown as 'M', Carolyn Bliss as 'Money-penny' and John Glen as director for the sixth consecutive time. While I still think that Glen is the best director, I believe it would have been better directed by someone else. 'The Property Of A Lady' felt like how 'Skyfall' was seen to most viewers, an improvement. It's a shame we never got to see Dalton again.
Interesting to see this thread. I've been reading the Michael France draft of GOLDENEYE and can't even imagine it being Dalton's third film, even though it was written specifically for the actor. It's a collection of mostly ludicrous action scenes that Dalton would have never felt appropriate for his Bond. There's some interesting dialogue between Bond and Trevelyan (in his 60s, and originally intended for Anthony Hopkins), but mostly it's Bond-as-superhero stuff. Fun but totally wrong for Dalton.
I've never read the William Davies/William Osborne script (based on Alfonse Ruggiero and Michael Wilson's story), but the authors of Some Kind of Hero seem to think it was excellent and a perfect vehicle for Dalton.
I'm huge Dalton fan and it has been my all time dream to read goldeneye draft/script that was written dalton in mind. Where did you get it? I could even pay a little to get a chance to read it.
Comments
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
And as Barbel points out, he has a fantastic voice.
" Stuff my (his) orders, I only kill professionals "
Not seen PD yet, but you have whetted my appetite. Thanks.
You forget the biggest marketing blunder EON made in the 80s: letting it be known that Pierce Brosnan was a contender, and he would replace Roger Moore. Everybody, including me, saw him as the next James Bond. Then Dalton came along. He did a couple of good movies, but I remember we still wanted Brosnan. That weakened Dalton's BO pull a lot. My guess is if Brosnan had been cast in 1986, TLD and LTK would have both been more successful.
Come the 90s and EON (and Brosnan) had learnt their lesson. One, give the audience what they want. Brosnan? there you have him. Two. Don't tell a soul who's going to play Bond until the very day it's announced to the press, because **** happens (network contracts and such, ask Pierce...)
However, it took me 5 minutes of GE to begin missing Dalton. And 5 minutes of CR to stop missing him.
Thats not my memory at all
It featured a "new James Bond segment" on the BBC news. Ooooh its him out of Flash Gordon. He'll be good. We had none of this Pierce rigmarole at all..
We had none of this Pierce doesn't get the job due to Remington Steele until later.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avypu5uFuuU
Coca Cola even contracted with Brosnan to do Diet Coke commercials, apparently in anticipation of his getting the role (they debuted in 1987 around the same time as The Living Daylights):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ojw3AS3BW8
BUT... turns out they actually did everyone a favour; we got Dalton's two, & Pierce got the role when he finally looked to be over 30.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
shocking news that due to contracts he was out, and some bloke called
Dalton had got the job.
and was very pleased.
So it happened in the United States then....no other country?
I also remember a very bad pictorial in Germany's biggest cinema magazine with Dalton and a Star-Wars like Lasergun in his hand
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
He doesn't appear to be playing Remington Steele in that Diet Coke commercial. He looks great, by the way. Very much like he did in GE. Perhaps a few less wrinkles,but Bondian enough.
Yes. Mine. No Diet Coke commercials, but rumour had it he would play Bond. If you notice, from then on the new actor is kept very hush-hush. A lot of media speculation, but no official sources. I knew about Brosnan and Craig after the fact.
"Better make that two."
Yep. I blame that more on the scripts. I think he could have been a more interesting Bond had he been allowed to be.
To me, Pierce's most Bondian performance is in TND and his best performance (acting wise) is in TWINE.
"Better make that two."
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
The scenes that were well written he's good, but some other scenes he seems to me, uncomfortable. He's got this confused, out of place look on his face.
"Better make that two."
1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Lazenby 5. Craig 6. Brosnan
I've never read the William Davies/William Osborne script (based on Alfonse Ruggiero and Michael Wilson's story), but the authors of Some Kind of Hero seem to think it was excellent and a perfect vehicle for Dalton.