Spectre and Tomorrow Never Dies - Modern Classics

MilleniumForce

When people think modern classics for Bond, they usually think GE, CR and SF. But TND and SP are more of a 'classic Bond film' than any of those three.

Both Spectre and TND are like modern Connery movies, they have outrageous villains, iconic henchmen, gadget filled car, car chase, villain lair, two Bond girls, and memorable moments. So why are these two overlooked?

TND is considered, by some, to be a mindless action flick and not a Bond movie because Bond carries a machine gun more like a generic action hero. Really? Bond has used a machine gun in a few films before TND, such as TSWLM and even GE. So why does TND get a bad rap for that? TND captures all the elements that made movies like GF and TSWLM classics, yet gets overlooked and considered by many to be one of the worst in the series (I'm looking at non Bond fans).

Spectre also goes back to Connery, with more humour but plenty of seriousness as well. It also has those elements that made GF and TSWLM classics, and I'm sure in a few years time people will look back and say "Youmknow what, it's a pretty good flick" (I know a lot of Bond fans really like it).

Gassy Man

Tomorrow Never Dies is the best of the Brosnan films, largely for the reasons you describe. If being an action hero is the problem, then he's more so in the chintzy Goldeneye.

Spectre suffers from a weak script, as all of the Bonds of the past 30 years with the exception of Casino Royale have. Beyond that, it's closer to what a Bond film is supposed to be than anything else Craig has done. It's not the best of his films -- that is still obviously Casino Royale. But it's more entertaining and aesthetically interesting than the two that came before it.

chrisisall

This thread basically names my two favourite films in the past 3 decades. {[]

blueman

Agree with the basic premise, TND and SP feel the most like old timey Bond flicks, not a bad thing at all (but still prefer QOS over everything since OHMSS :007) ).

chrisisall

blueman wrote:

Agree with the basic premise, TND and SP feel the most like old timey Bond flicks, not a bad thing at all (but still prefer QOS over everything since OHMSS :007) ).

QOS rocks like LTK did. OHMSS rocked as well, but Lazenby is no Dalton or Craig. IMHO of course.

Lady Ice

Gassy Man wrote:

Tomorrow Never Dies is the best of the Brosnan films, largely for the reasons you describe. If being an action hero is the problem, then he's more so in the chintzy Goldeneye.

Spectre suffers from a weak script, as all of the Bonds of the past 30 years with the exception of Casino Royale have. Beyond that, it's closer to what a Bond film is supposed to be than anything else Craig has done. It's not the best of his films -- that is still obviously Casino Royale. But it's more entertaining and aesthetically interesting than the two that came before it.

I think QoS was aesthetically interesting. SF was far too grey aesthetically.

I don't think it's necessarily a question of Spectre being what a Bond film is supposed to be because the series can evolve; it's more like what has most of the qualities of a Connery-era Bond film.

Firemass

MilleniumForce,

I'm in complete agreement. -{

broadshoulder

MilleniumForce wrote:

W

TND is considered, by some, to be a mindless action flick and not a Bond movie because Bond carries a machine gun more like a generic action hero. Really? t).

Yes, Really. Have you seen the climax? Bond tearing round the Stealth ship guns ablazing?

Mind you, TND is the Brosnan script I enjoy the most...

Thunderpussy

Although Bond has been running about with a machine gun
for years, ohmss and TSWLM spring to mind.

broadshoulder

Thunderpussy wrote:

Although Bond has been running about with a machine gun
for years, ohmss and TSWLM spring to mind.

OHMSS was Bond sliding along shooting - it lasted for seconds. "Spy" had Bond snatch one up and use it. Both scenes last for seconds. With TND we had Bond pick one up and start shooting for a while. It was the climax of the film

It made me doubt Roger Spottiswoode. Was he making a Bond film or a common-or-garden action spectacular?

Thunderpussy

I'm sort of torn in my opinions of TND. I do think it's a very light weight
story, very much action orientated, But I do enjoy it. I still remember leaving
the cinema after first seeing it and being very pleased. I love D Arnold's score. -{

broadshoulder

Thunderpussy wrote:

I'm sort of torn in my opinions of TND. I do think it's a very light weight
story, very much action orientated, But I do enjoy it. I still remember leaving
the cinema after first seeing it and being very pleased. I love D Arnold's score. -{

Actually, you forgot to mention Octopussy. Doesn't he swing down the staircase wielding a machinegun...

Thunderpussy

Yes, I wondered who'd be the first to mention that .
( In my best Cpt Mainwaring voice)

broadshoulder

Thunderpussy wrote:

Yes, I wondered who'd be the first to mention that .
( In my best Cpt Mainwaring voice)

) ) )

chrisisall

broadshoulder wrote:

Have you seen the climax? Bond tearing round the Stealth ship guns ablazing?

Yes, he should have tried to defeat everyone there hand to hand.... )

Thunderpussy

As far as Bond using a machine gun, I did love how in Spectre. Bond only
used very short bursts, or single shots. Then extending the stock for more
far away targets. -{ , Only my opinion but it looked far more professional
and thought out, that running about guns blazing.

chrisisall

Thunderpussy wrote:

it looked far more professional
and thought out, that running about guns blazing.

Tell that to John McClane.

Thunderpussy

Only allowable if Bond is in a vest.

Chriscoop

) ) that John Mcclane does like to down each man with a full ton of lead!! Yes SP was more realistic with the machine gun, I can't remember what gun it was he used during his escape in morrocco (hk-mp5??) but some special forces train using the triple tap as opposed to full automatic, better accuracy amongst other things. However bonds gun realism ended the moment he downed the helicopter with his trusty walther ( but I did rather enjoy that!)

chrisisall

Chriscoop wrote:

bonds gun realism ended the moment he downed the helicopter with his trusty walther

Not likely I grant you, but can you say with 100% certainty that it's absolutely impossible?

Chriscoop

On a boat. in the Thames, with his last bullet, having fallen 9 floors onto a debris net, recently having his brain drilled.......No I can't because he's James frigging Bond and no body but nobody does it better -{

Chriscoop

But if your not james bond your not bringing down that chopper with a ppk

chrisisall

The Force is strong with Bond...

Chriscoop

He's the daddy of them all my friend

Thunderpussy

I think Bond could have brought that helicopter down by throwing his ppk at it !

Saunders009

I recently viewed TND after a long time. I never had a high opinion of it but this time I really enjoyed it. It's not among my favorite Bonds, but as pure Bondian fun it is a nice pic. plenty of obvious one liner jokes and over-the-top villains and action set peices.

Arnolds' score is wonderful. Just awash in love with the Bond theme as well as the terrific song sung by Lang at the end.

I really appreciated the experience

chrisisall

Saunders009 wrote:

I recently viewed TND after a long time. I never had a high opinion of it but this time I really enjoyed it. It's not among my favorite Bonds, but as pure Bondian fun it is a nice pic. plenty of obvious one liner jokes and over-the-top villains and action set peices.

Arnolds' score is wonderful. Just awash in love with the Bond theme as well as the terrific song sung by Lang at the end.

I really appreciated the experience

That's what I like to hear! {[]

Chriscoop

TND has long been one of my favoured pierce brosnan bond films. It has plenty of elements in there and some great action. All set to one of David Arnolds top soundtracks, wasn't a very bondian car though, made brosnan look even more like a businessman, but enjoyable scenes with it.

James Suzuki

I had a similar experience with TND.
Watched recently, hasn't seen in in about 4 years. I loved it.
Pre titles is one of the best!
Brosnan top form.
Elliot Carver is Brosnans best villain.
Action is relentless, and clever.
Banging score. Kinda ticks all the boxes for me

chrisisall

James Suzuki wrote:

I had a similar experience with TND.
Watched recently, hasn't seen in in about 4 years. I loved it.
Pre titles is one of the best!
Brosnan top form.
Elliot Carver is Brosnans best villain.
Action is relentless, and clever.
Banging score. Kinda ticks all the boxes for me

The YOLT of the end of the 20th Century IMO. But better.

James Suzuki

chrisisall wrote:

James Suzuki wrote:

I had a similar experience with TND.
Watched recently, hasn't seen in in about 4 years. I loved it.
Pre titles is one of the best!
Brosnan top form.
Elliot Carver is Brosnans best villain.
Action is relentless, and clever.
Banging score. Kinda ticks all the boxes for me

The YOLT of the end of the 20th Century IMO. But better.

Agreed. Both movies had Fantastic scores, set pieces and plots, but brosnan's Portayal of Bond is leagues ahead of Connery's "I don't wanna be here" look