The amazing .32 Round

sniperUK

.32 ACP

7.65x17 mm Browning ReconTanto.jpg
7.65 mm Browning rounds. Left: standard FMJ. Right: military FMJ with nickel coating.

Type
Pistol

Place of origin
USA

Production history


Designer
John Browning

Manufacturer
Fabrique Nationale

Produced
1899

Specifications


Case type
Semi-rimmed, straight

Bullet diameter
.3125 in (7.94 mm)

Neck diameter
.3365 in (8.55 mm)

Base diameter
.337 in (8.6 mm)

Rim diameter
.358 in (9.1 mm)

Rim thickness
.045 in (1.1 mm)

Case length
.680 in (17.3 mm)

Overall length
.984 in (25.0 mm)

Ballistic performance

Bullet weight/typeVelocity/Energy

60 gr (4 g) JHP[1] 1,100 ft/s (335 m/s) 161 ft·lbf (218 J)
65 gr (4 g) JHP[2] 925 ft/s (282 m/s) 123 ft·lbf (167 J)
71 gr (5 g) FMJ[3] 1,017 ft/s (310 m/s) 163 ft·lbf (221 J)
73 gr (5 g) FMJ[4] 1,043 ft/s (318 m/s) 177 ft·lbf (240 J)

.32 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol), also known as the .32 Automatic is a centerfire pistol cartridge. It is a semi-rimmed, straight-walled cartridge developed by firearms designer John Browning, initially for use in the FN M1900 semi-automatic pistol. It was introduced in 1899 by Fabrique Nationale, and is also known as the 7.65×17mm Browning SR or 7.65 mm Browning.

Now this seemingly low powered round has now been developed my MI6 to have the equivalent power of a SAM7 or Starstreak missile system , this can be seen in the various James Bond movies.

Dr No, it can shoot out a couple of headlights at about 25 yards.

From Russia With Love, useful in a confined area firefight ,allowing kill shots at about 30 yds.

OHMSS , round bounces of a crash helmet.

LALD 44 Magnum used instead.

TMWTGG ,kills at around 15 yds.

TSWLM , bounces of steel teeth.

FYEO ,causes a Beach Buggy to flip after hitting a wheel.

LD, ineffective against body armour.

TND replaced with 9mm

Skyfall, accuracy of the round poor ,fails to hit targets ,constantly.

SPECTRE, seriously uprated to SAM levels , can down helicopters with a single round from two hundred yds

walther p99

I like how SF seemed to show an accurate portrayal of a PPK in use in 2012, because Bond really doesn't hit anything with it the entire film. Compare that to Spectre where its comically accurate and overpowered.

Gassy Man

Of course, Bond is a fantasy, but truth can also be stranger than fiction. There are countless stories of military vets hit by rounds of various calibers, including .32, where the bullet glanced, bounced off, or otherwise failed to wound. One of the reasons (perhaps scurrilously) American polices offers empty their pistols so often when shooting is because they don't know which round will hit or hit effectively to stop "the bad guy."

Here's footage of a U.S. Marine being hit by a sniper round in the helmet. He survives unscathed. Granted, the helmet is modern and reinforced, and bullet presumably shot from long range (and probably aimed at the guy ahead of him), but it illustrates the point that whatever specifications a round has, all that really matters is what it does if and when it hits the target:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0yY4DCShog

In SP, they try to set up a precedent for Bond's marksmanship when he takes out the handful of guards before fleeing Blofeld's desert complex. That said, what I thought was interesting is he went for the engine. In Vietnam, the VC figured out pretty quickly that shooting the tiny propeller in the back pretty much disabled a helicopter, so that's where they tended to concentrate their fire. I don't understand, too, why the launch Bond was using wasn't armed with automatic rifles. I suppose I could accept that they were removed from the boat when the building was evacuated, but then why was the launch there?

Gassy Man

Oh, having said all that, too, a few girlfriends ago, I was informed that the PPK is a "crap gun." It's prone to all sorts of issues, including not being very accurate beyond a limited range. In this respect, Bond being able to fire and do anything but a lucky shot at great distances -- assumed the rounds aren't bolstered in some way -- is quite improbable.

Asp9mm

Gassy Man wrote:

Oh, having said all that, too, a few girlfriends ago, I was informed that the PPK is a "crap gun." It's prone to all sorts of issues, including not being very accurate beyond a limited range. In this respect, Bond being able to fire and do anything but a lucky shot at great distances -- assumed the rounds aren't bolstered in some way -- is quite improbable.

To be fair, that is BS, unless she's had the US made versions. The PPK is a very accurate weapon within it's means due to the ergonomics and fixed barrel. There's a reason it has lasted for 80 years in service to some of the best military, law enforcement, and indeed civilian markets. And that's because it's a damned fine weapon when used within it's remit. Bond would come under that. The PPK is far from being a crap gun. Very far.

All handguns have a very limited range. That's why soldiers carry rifles.

7289

Too often the fictional, 007 PPK is confused with the real thing. There is no shortage of "experts" who will be happy to opine on it's virtues and faults.

The PPK is - as noted by ASP9MM noted above a fine accurate pistol. Even some of the later S&W versions can be found that will work. It's no real manstopper - but I'm not standing in front of one. The absolute stupidity that was portrayed in SPECTRE was ridiculous in the extreme. It was the crowning glory in a pathetic, unimaginative script. Yeah, they got my $$$ for the ticket - but it's the last one I'll buy!!!

PS: Didn't like SPECTRE.

Thunderpussy

John Gardner uses its withdrawal to give Bond a new gun in
Licence Renewed his first continuation novel.

sniperUK

It was and is still used by UK forces, I was carrying a PP until it was replaced with a 357 Ruger in 82 and my son still carries his issue PP as Personal Protection Weapon as a Prison officer (being replaced with a
Glock shortly) RAF aircrew can still be issued with it.

Asp9mm

stag wrote:

The PPK was withdrawn from UK police Royal/diplomatic protection service after an attempt to kidnap Princess Anne. The CPO who was with her on that occasion drew & attempted to fire his PPK only to have it jam. He in turn was shot by the assailant. Read about the incident here (unsure why they refer to the would be kidnapper as a burglar):

http://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/466037/Plot-to-kidnap-Princess-Anne-How-an-armed-burglar-tried-to-capture-a-royal-for-ransom

That is also BS. He had no decent training with semi auto pistols and he caught the slide when firing. His training and service history was with revolvers up till that point. It wasn't the weapons fault, but the way it was handled. The PPK wasn't withdrawn from service after that as I was using it in the mid 90's.

Asp9mm

Thunderpussy wrote:

John Gardner uses its withdrawal to give Bond a new gun in
Licence Renewed his first continuation novel.

Like I said. BS. Possibly Gardner was the one that instigated this false story. The PPK and PP are STILL in service. Mainly the PP with aircrew as the XL47E1 and the PPK with SRR.

Gassy Man

I have no opinion on it either way. She is a recreational shooter with a CC permit and who comes from a long line of military and police. Her opinion of the PPK was that it was crap. I'm not sure if she shot an American version or not, but I think that's a reasonable assumption since we're both Americans. Her brother served in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the family bought him some other weapon as a back up sidearm. I'm fine with Bond carrying it, and it is iconic. I can live with the fantasy elements.

Asp9mm

The thing is, military and police backgrounds don't mean you know anything about handguns in general unless you belong to an elite unit that uses them extensively and put a serious amount of rounds down range daily. Even then you may be confined to one or two models only. The PPK is/was/is used by many elite units in history and today, as well as being carried by CWP/CC holders as civilians. And of the elite units, we are talking about the elite of the elite. These people don't carry 'crap' in any shape or form. Each tool is tested, re-tested and chosen because of its reliabilty in real theatres of combat as well as the high standards laid down in extremely strict and testing trials. The PPK earns its place as one of the most reliable and accurate pistols of it's type. Not bad for a weapon designed in the 1930's. If Bond was real and operating in an undercover role today as a 'playboy' type living the high life. The PPK is still a very viable option due to it's size, reliability and accuracy.

chrisisall

Ahhh, German engineering! -{

Asp9mm

I wasn't in the Police, but I was occasionally involved in their training after I left NI and wanted to stay on in that particular regiment (not THE Regiment) I had been with. So I stayed on to teach small arms. The training of our own operatives was the mainstay, but occasionally others such as the police and SF would be part of it. The PPK and PP (PP moreso) were being used then in the early 90's. Brownings too, until Glocks quickly took over. The PP is still in service as the XL47E1, and I'm told the PPK still sees some minor use with our three SF when a small back up is required, or when carrying anything larger is impossible. No idea about the police though, but I'd highly doubt it.

The use of the PPK in the Beaton incident was used as a training point when I was undergoing training before hitting NI for the first time. There was even a short film they showed of a re-enactment of the incident which we were tested on afterwards. (I'd actually read Licence Renewed, so the whole thing interested me hugely at the time) The problem is James Beaton had trained extensively with revolvers for most of his career. Obviously he was given training with the PPK, but not to the extent to where it crowded out his revolver technique, mindset and muscle memory. This is something we trained on daily to achieve with our own L9A1. He made several mistakes when the whole incident went down. I can't for the life of me recall what the others were, but one was quite serious like not having a round chambered, and/or releasing the magazine accidently. Whatever it was, his revolver experience came to the forefront of his mind when he used the PPK and was faced with a very real threat. Our lizard brain takes over here, and obviously his revolver training and experience were thrust into the forefront of his mind. The slide didn't actually jam, well it did, but Beaton caused it as he stopped the slide from cycling back fully with his other hand or proximity to his body (again, I can't remember exactly which). Instead of racking the slide to clear it, he again did what you do with a revolver when you have a jam. He pulled the trigger. Obviously this works with a revolver, but not a semi auto.

My quote about military and police personnel not knowing about pistols in general was a sweeping statement, but for the most part is true as I am talking about knowledge of the huge range of makes and models, their operation and use. It's only elite units that have access to a wide range of weapons and who train with all of them. Most military and police only train with the weapons they are issued with. But even then, rumour and untruths creep in. In the British Army, it was a common thought that the L9A1 was falling apart and most are worn out and useless. This was far from the truth as they were very well maintained and reliable. It's all part of the Army Rumour Service. Someone says an item is 'crap' and then it becomes fact as it's passed on. What I'm talking about is a broad knowledge of many models and not just the few they are issued with. Obviously officers know their own issued weapon, but it doesn't mean they know or have had experience with many other models. The rumours we've read about the PPK in the posts above are proof of this. It's not crap or inaccurate and has been in service for 80 years around the world. Sadly the Interarms and S&W US made versions have problems which the German made originals don't.

Higgins

to sum it up: Asp9mm was talking rubbish and confirmed it

Asp9mm

stag wrote:

Thinking about it. Didn't the officer in question fire one round at the attacker before suffering a stoppage? Again I am only going on memory but am quite sure I was told this. Dunno if this can be confirmed.

He did get quite a few rounds off, and in his own words his aim was shaky, he retried and got more shots off. That's when he somehow interfered with the slides rearward movement and caused the jam.

Sorry, I didn't mean to infer that the police training is poor or that Beaton was incompetent. That's far from the case. But mistakes were made and in the heat of the contact his mind switched back to his 'revolver use mode'. It happens all the time during a contact however well trained you are. There are several cases of police/military who have gone through a contact and then found they've automatically done crazy things they haven't done in years, like carefully put away their empty mags in a pocket so they don't get damaged when ejecting, or put their spent revolver rounds carefully in a pile nearby when reloading. Considering they did that automatically without thinking while being fired upon shows you how your mind can shut down and reverts to your training by default.

This was exactly what happened to Beaton when his default went from semi auto to revolver. It's something you can't predict will happen during an evaluation. The poor fella was also shot many times whilst trying to return fire including point blank in the hand as he tried to push the muzzle away from himself. It must have been hell for him. A very brave man.

Miles Messervy

Fascinating discussion.

As an aside, I have a newer S&W PPK/S and have had no reliability issues with it (granted, I've only put about 1500 rounds through it).

Loeffelholz

If writing Bond for the screen, I would have had Q branch dabble in specialized rounds for the PPK: armor-piercing, incendiary, fragmentation. Sure, it's pure hocus...but it would have helped with the helicopter bit ;%