Will the unofficial bonds films ever...

Jarvio

Will the unofficial bonds films ever be officially added to the eon bond series?

By those I mean "Never Say Never Again" and the heinous 1967 spoof of Casino Royale.

I don't know how this all works with rights etc, but with all this talk about bond going into the public domain in less than 20 years, do you think these 2 films will ever be 'added' to the official series?

I know that these films are in a separate canon to the eon series... but the DC films are in a different canon to the SC-PB films afterall. Also, NSNA may be a remake of Thunderball, but some people see TSWLM as a remake of YOLT, MR a remake of TSWLM, AVTAK a remake of GF etc.

I hate CR '67, but I don't really mind NSNA... but it seriously screws with my OCD that these 2 films don't 'count' in the bond series.

I think it would be pretty cool if both Connery and Moore had 7 official bond films, which would happen if NSNA was added.

Adding CR would screw with my OCD though, because then we would have 2 CR's in the series.... unless they just renamed the 1967 version to something else instead, but I bet that's not allowed...

So... am I dreaming? Or is this a dream that might, to some extent, come true one day?

Matt S

Adding them to the canon would screw with my OCD more than leaving them out. Now that they are all under the same distributor, they could have added them to the Bond series if they wanted to. I don't think they ever will be added. I can't imagine EON would want them as part of their series.

superado

To be fair, if we can accept the tampered format during the reboot, I think with a little effort these errant Fleming step-children can also be accepted into the fold.

If anything, and if it hasn't been done, it would be nice for these 2 movies to get the same digital remastering treatment that the EON installments received. Along the lines of the EON-ized fan-made bootleg of NSNA from a while ago, maybe NSNA can be redistributed as the Producers' Cut, complete with the PTS gunbarrel and the Monty Norman theme inserted here and there.

Barbel

Perhaps the package could also include the original version, too.

Napoleon Plural

Well, this does seem a bit of OCD as the OP says cos really, who cares? I mean, honestly, NSNA aint all that anyway, wish it were and are we talking adding a gun barrel and all that cos CR doesn't have that in the right place anyhow but that's official. Why not the TV late 50s version of CR while we're about it?

Sorry bit sloshed on Mud Sav Blanc white wine this evening.

Who care if they're in 'the fold'? What's the fold when it's at home? Does FRWL have anything much in common with MR? If MR is utter crap in many fans' view then what gives? There is a rejigged version of NSNA about by a fellow called Blofeld's Cat )not his real name that would be a coincidence) with a John Barry score but even then it aint great.

superado

Napoleon Plural wrote:

Well, this does seem a bit of OCD as the OP says cos really, who cares? I mean, honestly, NSNA aint all that anyway, wish it were and are we talking adding a gun barrel and all that cos CR doesn't have that in the right place anyhow but that's official. Why not the TV late 50s version of CR while we're about it?

Sorry bit sloshed on Mud Sav Blanc white wine this evening.

Who care if they're in 'the fold'? What's the fold when it's at home? Does FRWL have anything much in common with MR? If MR is utter crap in many fans' view then what gives? There is a rejigged version of NSNA about by a fellow called Blofeld's Cat )not his real name that would be a coincidence) with a John Barry score but even then it aint great.

Your arguments are weak. You go on as if everyone thinks like you, or should think like you. I care about NSNA, CR 67, MR, etc. and others do too.

Matt S

What exactly would adding these two films to the series accomplish, other than increasing Connery's Bond film count?

superado

As I've posted above (1) If you don't like these movies, there are those who do and the fact that they remain for sale online is proof there's some sort of demand. (2) Just because these are non-EON movies doesn't mean that they are without merit or they lack significant production values. (3) it would do well to have them digitally remastered, both audio and video. (4) having them done in the EON format with the "EON Vault," etc. etc. would provide fans with bonus material that they're familiar with and which would be at par with the content of the "canon" EON movies.

So let me rephrase your own question: What would be the harm in giving these these 2 movies that kind of recognition of at least being part of the EON library, which they in fact are?

Firemass

NSNA has an extra 'cool factor' for being a renegade Bond film outside the official series.

Still..it would be fun to see it included in Bond box sets. Imagine watching it in a Bond marathon between OP and AVTAK.

CR67 on the other hand…I dunno…it's so disrespectful of Fleming and Bond in general I would not want to see it given any special treatment. It doesn't try to be an actual Bond film in the spirit like NSNA does.

Matt S

superado wrote:

As I've posted above (1) If you don't like these movies, there are those who do and the fact that they remain for sale online is proof there's some sort of demand. (2) Just because these are non-EON movies doesn't mean that they are without merit or they lack significant production values. (3) it would do well to have them digitally remastered, both audio and video. (4) having them done in the EON format with the "EON Vault," etc. etc. would provide fans with bonus material that they're familiar with and which would be at par with the content of the "canon" EON movies.

So let me rephrase your own question: What would be the harm in giving these these 2 movies that kind of recognition of at least being part of the EON library, which they in fact are?

I'm assuming this is a response to me. I don't think that adding them to the EON series has anything to do with any of your four points. If there is a demand for it, they could be remastered and have special features made. I don't see what that has to do with being part of EON. The more recent EON Bond film DVD releases are quite sad in the special features department.

For me, the harm would be insulting the EON Bond films these films competed against when first released. The films aren't part of the EON Bond series, and I don't see any reason why they should be added. This isn't meant a knock against the films.

superado

Very typical of you to again insist with your opinion, as if you're the only arbiter of tastes and takes on specific issues, which others must also follow lest risk being invalid. Why does it need to be seen as insulting to EON? If that's the case, why didn't EON just arrange to have those two movies taken out of circulation altogether? That seems like a petty perspective you have there, let alone narcissistically opinionated and dismissive. Did you grow up with people telling you how special you were?

Barbel

Peace and love, guys. We have a PM service, remember.

Napoleon Plural

I don't know why this has all kicked off, or why superado, who normally seems a level-headed poster, should be accusing me and Matt S as if we are the same person. I haven't suggested erasing NSNA or CR 67 from history. If someone is suggesting that both films would benefit from behind the scenes interviews that EON might provide, that is entirely different. (But Jarvio, the OP did not mention this). Indeed, imo these films would uniquely benefit as the behind the scenes chaos was more entertaining than the actual movies. Much of this is covered in Sellers' book The Battle of the Bonds, and CR 67 is nodded to in The Life and Death of Peter Sellers, and the making of both are covered in a brilliant 007 Magazine publication from around a decade ago that I wish I'd got and is going for at least £30 now where you can find it.

But I would have thought OCD would also kick off by adding the movies to the official series, as Connery's Bond has supposed to have been teaching the last 10 years, so can't be the same guy as the one in OP, and as for CR 67 well where do you start?

But I would be very interested in some of the deleted scenes from NSNA, if they are still around.

Barbel

I do think that if there's ever an "Eonised" NSNA (CR67 seems much less likely) then the original should be included as an option as well, of course, as deleted scenes, interview, documentaries etc.

Napoleon Plural

Once scene that was devised but I'm not sure ever filmed for NSNA involved Blofeld's death!

A previous scene had established that his white cat had poisoned claws. In the final scene, Blofeld calls up Largo on his helicopter telephone to check all has gone according to plan. Instead he gets Bond's voice on the TV phone, and he is so shocked he knocks his cat or something, who reacts by scratching his master thus killing him. Bond then tosses the TV monitor into the sea, with Blofeld's death face on it as it hits the water, segueing into the final scene we do see with Domino making waves in the Bahamas pool at the end. Okay, it's a bit nonsense (poisoned claws, come on) but a big deal all the same

Another one was a dinner between Bond and Largo on the yacht (but this was before the script doctors came on board and they said it didn't really work as dialogue, the actors were forced to ham it up) and when Bond encounters Domino at a tobacconist which is straight out of the book. Also, Pamela Salem complained that a lot of her stuff as Moneypenny hit the cutting room floor.

More controversially, stuff involving the mishandling of sharks was cut from the film, and also the horse drop.

Matt S

Napoleon Plural wrote:

Once scene that was devised but I'm not sure ever filmed for NSNA involved Blofeld's death!

A previous scene had established that his white cat had poisoned claws. In the final scene, Blofeld calls up Largo on his helicopter telephone to check all has gone according to plan. Instead he gets Bond's voice on the TV phone, and he is so shocked he knocks his cat or something, who reacts by scratching his master thus killing him. Bond then tosses the TV monitor into the sea, with Blofeld's death face on it as it hits the water, segueing into the final scene we do see with Domino making waves in the Bahamas pool at the end. Okay, it's a bit nonsense (poisoned claws, come on) but a big deal all the same

Another one was a dinner between Bond and Largo on the yacht (but this was before the script doctors came on board and they said it didn't really work as dialogue, the actors were forced to ham it up) and when Bond encounters Domino at a tobacconist which is straight out of the book. Also, Pamela Salem complained that a lot of her stuff as Moneypenny hit the cutting room floor.

More controversially, stuff involving the mishandling of sharks was cut from the film, and also the horse drop.

It's too bad there wasn't more of Pamela Salem. I really liked her. I also liked "Algernon", but I wish he wasn't called that.

Jarvio

Napoleon Plural wrote:

who cares?

A lot of people...

Nothing to lose by just adding them IMO

MilleniumForce

They can't be added canon wise. Jarvio, I get your pint that TSWLM and MR are remakes of YOLT, but NSNA is a full on remake, using the same characters and plot (TSWLM and MR only follow the same basic story).

And plus, CR can't be added, as everyone dies at the end.

Matt S

MilleniumForce wrote:

They can't be added canon wise. Jarvio, I get your pint that TSWLM and MR are remakes of YOLT, but NSNA is a full on remake, using the same characters and plot (TSWLM and MR only follow the same basic story).

And plus, CR can't be added, as everyone dies at the end.

I think his point is that is wouldn't be in the canon of the other Bond films, just another two official continuities like how Craig's films are in a completely different continuity than any of the other Bond films. But then, are Connery's and Moore's EON Bond films in the same continuity? Then if NSNA were added, would that be a part of Connery's other films and Moore's would now be separate? Or would it just stand on its own? I'd say the latter because, as you say, the characters are repeated.

Jarvio

Matt S wrote:

MilleniumForce wrote:

They can't be added canon wise. Jarvio, I get your pint that TSWLM and MR are remakes of YOLT, but NSNA is a full on remake, using the same characters and plot (TSWLM and MR only follow the same basic story).

And plus, CR can't be added, as everyone dies at the end.

I think his point is that is wouldn't be in the canon of the other Bond films, just another two official continuities like how Craig's films are in a completely different continuity than any of the other Bond films. But then, are Connery's and Moore's EON Bond films in the same continuity? Then if NSNA were added, would that be a part of Connery's other films and Moore's would now be separate? Or would it just stand on its own? I'd say the latter because, as you say, the characters are repeated.

Yeah that's pretty much what I meant. In terms of continuity they can't be anything but separate, but it would still be nice to have them as 'official' bond films.

As mentioned, the DC films are in a separate timeline. Also, OHMSS makes little sense seeing as Blofeld meets Bond for the first time, yet YOLT came before it... (I know it's based on the book, I'm just talking solely on the films).

I could live without CR '67 though, because as others have said, it doesn't even try to be a bond film - it's a full on spoof. And it is really awful.

NSNA is pretty cool though. Not amazing, but I've grown to appreciate it more lately. It uses the same characters as TB, but not entirely the same - different surname for Domino, different first name for Largo etc. I know that's not much though. Maybe NSNA is just Connery having a 'de ja vu dream' about his TB mission

Anyway, I have thought of an interesting question - If NSNA was branded as an official part of the series, do you think this would improve it's popularity? Or would it do the opposite?

superado

At this stage of the EON franchise, considering where it's gone, what the competition has been doing, trends in the literary worlds of Bond, young Bond, young adult series, and the different tangents being explored by other franchises (X-Men is a good example, jumping back and forth in their time-line), I think EON can afford to experiment. With this talk of Bond actor #7, I thought what about bringing back Brosnan in a one-off as old Bond dealing with issues related to his age and his personal and professional history, just like the famous Batman "Dark Knight Returns" comic. I think NSNA has shown that to be an interesting scenario, the return of Old Bond; and to stretch that concept further, I consider Connery being Bond as the 30-year incarcerated ex-SAS trained British agent in "The Rock," which shows that "Bond" can still be formidable in his old age.

Speaking of Old Bond, that's what I liked about the premise of CR 67 with David Niven as Sir James Bond. Despite the panning of that movie by most fans, to me it is a gem because of its sheer star-powered cameos. To look at it another way, it's a cinematic time-capsule of the crazy Bond-mania that was taking place outside of the EON movie frame, an invaluable snapshot and celebration of how Bond affected pop culture in the 60's, the height of Bond-mania that will likely remain unrivaled.

And for more experimentation related to the soon-to-expire Bond copyright thread(s) elsewhere on AJB, I don't see any valid obstacles, whether artistic, commercial, etc. for doing a retro-literary Bond (think of Jane Austen adaptations or Steven Spielberg period pieces) or even a separate, parallel Young Bond series.

Matt S

Jarvio wrote:

Anyway, I have thought of an interesting question - If NSNA was branded as an official part of the series, do you think this would improve it's popularity? Or would it do the opposite?

I think it would a little. That would probably be the biggest effect making NSNA an official Bond film. If EON recognised it, other people would have to recognise it as well. But it won't force people who don't like it to change their opinion, just as I learned here that many people dislike DAF.

If I'm allowed to ask this, is there a reason why EON would choose recognise a film they didn't make as part of their series. If this question is offensive, please just ignore it.

Napoleon Plural

CR 67 is pretty awful yet also pretty enjoyable, I mean I like it if I switch on after Niven has lost his silly stutter, even then I find his whole lapsong tea thing annoying, or is it a dig at the vodka martin thing? There is a lot going on, and funnily enough some of it shows up in other stuff; the revolving bed in Austin Powers, and the intense chat between Sellers and Andress seems like that of Bond and Anya on the boat in TSWLM just before she smokes him out.

EON do personally hate NSNA, Babs Broccoli in particular so there's no love lost. I would quite like to see a director's cut with a new score and there was talk of that - about 20 years ago! Even then I don't see it as a flawed masterpiece. I guess the Bonds are getting a bit like Sherlock Holmes now, there is no clear timeline and many different interpretations so it's hard to get uptight about it.

Mr Snow

superado wrote:

As I've posted above (1) If you don't like these movies, there are those who do and the fact that they remain for sale online is proof there's some sort of demand.

It could also mean there are truckloads of these DVD's stored in warehouses because they aren't in demand.

I've never considered either the '67 CR or NSNA 'Bond films'. If you buy a box set of Bond films they aren't included. I don't like either of those two films and why Connery agreed to remake TB is a mystery; money (and possibly Connery's ego) and Kevin McClory may have had something to do with it?

Connery in NSNA in my opinion is akin to Steve Martin playing Inspector Jacques Clouseau in the Pink Panther. And if I were Peter Sellers I'd be turning in my grave.

Thunderpussy

I regard both films as mere curiosities, I have them in my collection, but they're
never watched.

superado

OGG007 wrote:

It could also mean there are truckloads of these DVD's stored in warehouses because they aren't in demand.

Oh yes, anything is possible, even your scenario above, but let's not get silly about it...that's not what's happening. A video disc producer worth its salt in the industry wouldn't manufacture beyond what they project they can sell...simple principles of forecasting and demand management.

According to Amazon:

*CR (1967) 3.8 out of 5 stars based on 379 Customer Reviews
*NSNA, 3.7 out of 5 stars based on 766 Customer Reviews (more Amazon reviews than some of the Connery and Moore entries, btw)

...so, there is a demand, maybe not in the magnitude of SF or SP, but people are watching these movies or else they would only be available from 3rd party Amazon merchants at "collectors" prices and not "Prime."