I like that Moore didn't do much fighting. He's always a Bknd I've seen as one who uses his charm with women and gadgets to do his work, rather than having to beat people up. For example, in TMWTGG, when he needs to get into Hai Fat's place, he doesn't fight any guards or anything to get. Just uses a fake nipple.
You sir, have clearly not read my totally brilliant ( the benchmark, some say ) post ( 58)
On the fighting skills of the Bonds.
I take a pinch of my snuff and turn my back on you sir
I will correct my oversight at speed and indeed look forward to learning from the Master.
Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.
superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
This may be controversial but I also think that the fight in mid air is awful. Why did they show the close up of the stunt double's face with the protective glasses on? A great idea but I've never liked it.
Yeah, looking back at almost every Bond fight outside of planes, involving parachutes, free-falling, etc. it's difficult not to notice that they were stuntmen wearing loose outfits that hid parachutes. Thank goodness for CGI I suppose, because nowadays, they digitally replace the stuntman's face with Bond's, like how they did with Craig in the Spectre PTS fight in the helicopter.
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
This may be controversial but I also think that the fight in mid air is awful. Why did they show the close up of the stunt double's face with the protective glasses on? A great idea but I've never liked it.
Yeah, looking back at almost every Bond fight outside of planes, involving parachutes, free-falling, etc. it's difficult not to notice that they were stuntmen wearing loose outfits that hid parachutes. Thank goodness for CGI I suppose, because nowadays, they digitally replace the stuntman's face with Bond's, like how they did with Craig in the Spectre PTS fight in the helicopter.
And looks just as noticeable, if not even more so. I prefer stuntmen over CGI effects.
Film: Tomorrow Never Dies | Girl: Teresa di Vicenzo | Villain: Max Zorin | Car: Aston Martin Volante | Novel: You Only Live Twice | Bond: Sir Sean Connery
I was more aware of use of Bonds Stuntman in Spectre than any other Craig film. I assumed it was due to injury. Also due to digital coverage during the shoot I knew that Daniel was not in the Helicopter and that Prosthetics had been used on the Stuntman. I will never know how much this affected my viewing. I do recall on first watch thinking ' oh yes that's the Stuntman' In the olden Roger Moore days it was well known that Roger did not like guns or loud bangs and preferred the Stuntmen to take the knocks, but with Daniel being such a physical Bond it seemed to matter more somehow.
Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.
I like that Moore didn't do much fighting. He's always a Bknd I've seen as one who uses his charm with women and gadgets to do his work, rather than having to beat people up. For example, in TMWTGG, when he needs to get into Hai Fat's place, he doesn't fight any guards or anything to get. Just uses a fake nipple.
{[]
While there is some humour to your point, I concur. The same goes for the attack on the port in FYEO - there's not a lot of punching and kicking - there's just inventive ways to win.
I was more aware of use of Bonds Stuntman in Spectre than any other Craig film. I assumed it was due to injury. Also due to digital coverage during the shoot I knew that Daniel was not in the Helicopter and that Prosthetics had been used on the Stuntman. I will never know how much this affected my viewing. I do recall on first watch thinking ' oh yes that's the Stuntman' In the olden Roger Moore days it was well known that Roger did not like guns or loud bangs and preferred the Stuntmen to take the knocks, but with Daniel being such a physical Bond it seemed to matter more somehow.
Color me gullible, but I didn't realize they used CGI on Craig's face in that scene until I read about it much later. I assumed the usual tricks like Dalton in the LTK PTS with the Coast Guard helicopter filmed around 30 ft off the ground but with TD himself in the harness where his face shows. Before good CGI became available, it was either compromises that we got like the MR parachute scene, or actors took initiative to do some stunts themselves for the sake of authenticity or in some cases, that was an excuse for them to do it for whatever personal motivations they had (acting chops, having fun, etc.)
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
At least they make the effort, which is better than the old days, have you seen Moore's stunt double on the eiffel tower? )
DC and brozzer did plenty of their own stunts, brozzer now has a nice scar on his lip for his troubles and DC has had two operations to repair both his shoulder and his knee amongst other injuries. If you were Eon would you really put your main star in a barrel rolling helicopter?
I thought the stuntmen in SP were better disguised than in CR were you can clearly see the stuntman with wig on the crane.
It was either that.....or the priesthood
superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
Cubby Broccoli got upset to discover TD insisting on riding the Land Rover in some of the dangerous Gibraltar road scenes, while Lazenby went skiing against orders just to be stupid!
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
Different times I guess, in Thunderball even SC has a stuntman standing in for a couple of shots in the PTS fight, and there's nothing particularly dangerous there!
DC did a lot of his own stuff like insisting on being on the train roof in Sf, driving the boat in qos, jumping out the window in qos etc etc I suppose it depends on the shots they want and the actors insistence maybe?
What did any of you think of the fight with Kananga in LALD and the one in TSWLM when Bond gets attacked by two men at that night time pyramid show/event thing? And the one with the large blond henchman in YOLT in Blofeld's lair?
At least they make the effort, which is better than the old days, have you seen Moore's stunt double on the eiffel tower? )
DC and brozzer did plenty of their own stunts, brozzer now has a nice scar on his lip for his troubles and DC has had two operations to repair both his shoulder and his knee amongst other injuries. If you were Eon would you really put your main star in a barrel rolling helicopter?
I thought the stuntmen in SP were better disguised than in CR were you can clearly see the stuntman with wig on the crane.
I'm amazed that they let them do as much as they do given the costs and risks, its to the actors credit that they want to do as much as they can. As a sidebar I feel that Brozzer is not given enough credit for really putting his back into it, the punch up with 006 is amongst the very best of the series.
Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.
Hand to hand fights in most films are over-choreographed or badly edited or both. Some either have to many long shots (a lot of old westerns) or too many closeup cuts (and over done modern style that's just too confusing). The Bond series is no different. The older film fights were staged more or less to the style that was classic Hollywood fist cuffs - a lot of punches widely thrown and generally in a large space. Connery's were staged ok for the most part (FRWL train fight -TBALL opening sequence) and at least Hunt changed the cutting style to emphasize the fast brutality of some of them (OHMSS beach and hotel room fight). I always liked the Osato office fight because they used objects in the room as weapons - which is what professional killers would do. The one's I disliked the most were any that slowed down the choreography making it look like every punch was telegraphed to the opponent. I'm glad they incorporated some judo holds and throws in some scenes as Bond was supposed to be trained in it as well as boxing - but I always hated the fact that in all films no one ever ends up with even a fractured finger. I realize it's all cartoon fighting to that extent so the hero and villain throw fist punches for hours without even getting inflamed skin on their hands..but it would have been nice to have seen some that lacked those knuckle punches to the chin. What I liked about Craig's (especially CR) is they are faster, messier and he usually ends up wounded, out of breath and knackered at the end - just like in real brawls. Contrast that to all the head butting and kicking in a lot of the older fights where Bond (and sometimes the villain) are hardly phased by the beating and just keep going at it. I know...some of Craig's later stuff is not as hot as the first fights were - but it seems like this was purposely done to to channel the style of the older films for the sake of nostalgia.
Hand to hand fights in most films are over-choreographed or badly edited or both. Some either have to many long shots (a lot of old westerns) or too many closeup cuts (and over done modern style that's just too confusing). The Bond series is no different. The older film fights were staged more or less to the style that was classic Hollywood fist cuffs - a lot of punches widely thrown and generally in a large space. Connery's were stage ok for the most part (FRWL train fight -TBALL opening sequence) and at least Hunt changed the cutting style to emphasize the fast brutality of some of them (OHMSS beach and hotel room fight). I always liked the Osato office fight because they used objects in the room as weapons - which is what professional killers would do. The one's I disliked the most were any that slowed down the choreography making it look like every punch was telegraphed to the opponent. I'm glad they incorporated some judo holds and throws in some scenes as Bond was supposed to be trained in it as well as boxing - but I always hated the fact that in all films no one ever ends up with even a fractured finger. I realize it's all cartoon fighting to that extent so the hero and villain throw fist punches for hours without even getting inflamed skin on their hands..but it would have been nice to have seen some that lacked those knuckle punches to the chin. What I liked about Craig's (especially CR) is they are faster, messier and he usually ends up wounded, out of breath and knackered at the end - just like in real brawls. Contrast that to all the head butting and kicking in a lot of the older fights where Bond (and sometimes the villain) are hardly phased by the beating and just keep going at it. I know...some of later Craig's stuff is not as hot as the first fights were - but it seems like this was purposely done to to channel the style of the older films for the sake of nostalgia.
You're right about Craig's fights being more brutal because of the addition of blood and injuries. It's a great addition to the series IMO - and QoS in particular has some great fights.
You're also right about fights in films being over-choreographed - the Matrix features some of the best fighting I've seen in film - but still remains heavily planned. And the actors were trained non-stop before them too.
I guess it begs the question of this thread:
1) What are the worst fights? Because they were just rubbish.
2) What are the worst fights? Because they were heavily and overly edited/choreographed.
Hand to hand fights in most films are over-choreographed or badly edited or both. Some either have to many long shots (a lot of old westerns) or too many closeup cuts (and over done modern style that's just too confusing). The Bond series is no different. The older film fights were staged more or less to the style that was classic Hollywood fist cuffs - a lot of punches widely thrown and generally in a large space. Connery's were stage ok for the most part (FRWL train fight -TBALL opening sequence) and at least Hunt changed the cutting style to emphasize the fast brutality of some of them (OHMSS beach and hotel room fight). I always liked the Osato office fight because they used objects in the room as weapons - which is what professional killers would do. The one's I disliked the most were any that slowed down the choreography making it look like every punch was telegraphed to the opponent. I'm glad they incorporated some judo holds and throws in some scenes as Bond was supposed to be trained in it as well as boxing - but I always hated the fact that in all films no one ever ends up with even a fractured finger. I realize it's all cartoon fighting to that extent so the hero and villain throw fist punches for hours without even getting inflamed skin on their hands..but it would have been nice to have seen some that lacked those knuckle punches to the chin. What I liked about Craig's (especially CR) is they are faster, messier and he usually ends up wounded, out of breath and knackered at the end - just like in real brawls. Contrast that to all the head butting and kicking in a lot of the older fights where Bond (and sometimes the villain) are hardly phased by the beating and just keep going at it. I know...some of later Craig's stuff is not as hot as the first fights were - but it seems like this was purposely done to to channel the style of the older films for the sake of nostalgia.
You're right about Craig's fights being more brutal because of the addition of blood and injuries. It's a great addition to the series IMO - and QoS in particular has some great fights.
You're also right about fights in films being over-choreographed - the Matrix features some of the best fighting I've seen in film - but still remains heavily planned. And the actors were trained non-stop before them too.
I guess it begs the question of this thread:
1) What are the worst fights? Because they were just rubbish.
2) What are the worst fights? Because they were heavily and overly edited/choreographed.
Since the characters in the Matrix films were supposed to be inside a computer simulated program the ballet like fights helped re-enforce this perception for me.
superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
Just finished watching OHMSS. I think George did some of his own stunts, but it cost him dearly.
That's why Yuri Borienko had to remove Bond's coat when he arrives at Piz Gloria because George broke his arm doing a skiing scene.
Thanks for that bit of info - was not aware of that fact!
Yes, ditto for me, this info is not usually mentioned in OHMSS "making of" accounts, thank you!
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
1) What are the worst fights? Because they were just rubbish.
2) What are the worst fights? Because they were heavily and overly edited/choreographed.
Since the characters in the Matrix films were supposed to be inside a computer simulated program the ballet like fights helped re-enforce this perception for me.
Which is why I thought the SF fights on the train and in Shanghai looked fake, because they were ballet-like though it seems that was the intention with the Shanghai fight esp. w/the neon light in the background.
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
1) What are the worst fights? Because they were just rubbish.
2) What are the worst fights? Because they were heavily and overly edited/choreographed.
Since the characters in the Matrix films were supposed to be inside a computer simulated program the ballet like fights helped re-enforce this perception for me.
Which is why I thought the SF fights on the train and in Shanghai looked fake, because they were ballet-like though it seems that was the intention with the Shanghai fight esp. w/the neon light in the background.
I've neven been a fan of the Shanghai fight, but the whole scenes in Shanghai are quite mesmerising and are an incredible aesthetic that I can look past it.
The fight in the hotel room/balcony at Port au Prince - QoS - is one of the most realistic fights I've seen in Bond. It's pretty brutal. I remember hearing people at the movies being quite shocked at how intense it was.
Depends on what you're looking for -- I find the Kobe docks fight in YOLT breathtaking, with the combination of music, direction, and cinematography. For a film with a villain's lair in a volcano, it's magnificent.
On the other hand, I find elements of Lazenby's fights in OHMSS campy and comical -- from the strange "tie her to the tracks" music that John Barry musters up, to Peter Hunt's zoom camerawork, to the windmill punches Bond delivers.
I had a former combat veteran in my class and showed the teaser to Goldfinger, and he said it was the most realistic fight he had seen in a Bond movie. I asked him why. He said it was because they were clumsy and neither very choreographed nor exchanging dozens and dozens of blows as though invulnerable to pain. When two men are fighting life and death, he said, it's awkward and over as quickly as possible, not like the protracted ballets that modern films privilege.
So, to each their own. But the least exciting hand-to-hand fights for me have either been in Moore's or Brosnan's films.
What about the little scuffle that Rog has with Kananga's henchmen when he enters his lair at the end of LALD?
The specific few frames that I mean are when you see Rog and the henchmen on the baddie's tv screen and he says "trouble!" (or something like that). It just looks really stupid. I think Rog throws one of them at the other and they both fall over!
What about the little scuffle that Rog has with Kananga's henchmen when he enters his lair at the end of LALD?
The specific few frames that I mean are when you see Rog and the henchmen on the baddie's tv screen and he says "trouble!" (or something like that). It just looks really stupid. I think Rog throws one of them at the other and they both fall over!
Never liked any of the Bond vs Largo fight. It's poorly edited with obvious jump cuts, and overall just not exciting. Plus, that sped up footage infuriates me to no end. X-( X-( X-( X-(
Never liked any of the Bond vs Largo fight. It's poorly edited with obvious jump cuts, and overall just not exciting. Plus, that sped up footage infuriates me to no end. X-( X-( X-( X-(
Yes this for me is possibly the worst choreographed fight in the series. All down to the speed and because it looks so fake.
Comments
I will correct my oversight at speed and indeed look forward to learning from the Master.
Yeah, looking back at almost every Bond fight outside of planes, involving parachutes, free-falling, etc. it's difficult not to notice that they were stuntmen wearing loose outfits that hid parachutes. Thank goodness for CGI I suppose, because nowadays, they digitally replace the stuntman's face with Bond's, like how they did with Craig in the Spectre PTS fight in the helicopter.
And looks just as noticeable, if not even more so. I prefer stuntmen over CGI effects.
{[]
While there is some humour to your point, I concur. The same goes for the attack on the port in FYEO - there's not a lot of punching and kicking - there's just inventive ways to win.
"Better make that two."
Nerve pinch, as it got him out of a lot of fight scenes.
On a side note, damn this predictive text crap, it took me ages to get Nimoy as it
Kept changing it
Color me gullible, but I didn't realize they used CGI on Craig's face in that scene until I read about it much later. I assumed the usual tricks like Dalton in the LTK PTS with the Coast Guard helicopter filmed around 30 ft off the ground but with TD himself in the harness where his face shows. Before good CGI became available, it was either compromises that we got like the MR parachute scene, or actors took initiative to do some stunts themselves for the sake of authenticity or in some cases, that was an excuse for them to do it for whatever personal motivations they had (acting chops, having fun, etc.)
DC and brozzer did plenty of their own stunts, brozzer now has a nice scar on his lip for his troubles and DC has had two operations to repair both his shoulder and his knee amongst other injuries. If you were Eon would you really put your main star in a barrel rolling helicopter?
I thought the stuntmen in SP were better disguised than in CR were you can clearly see the stuntman with wig on the crane.
DC did a lot of his own stuff like insisting on being on the train roof in Sf, driving the boat in qos, jumping out the window in qos etc etc I suppose it depends on the shots they want and the actors insistence maybe?
I'm amazed that they let them do as much as they do given the costs and risks, its to the actors credit that they want to do as much as they can. As a sidebar I feel that Brozzer is not given enough credit for really putting his back into it, the punch up with 006 is amongst the very best of the series.
That's why Yuri Borienko had to remove Bond's coat when he arrives at Piz Gloria because George broke his arm doing a skiing scene.
" I don't listen to hip hop!"
You're right about Craig's fights being more brutal because of the addition of blood and injuries. It's a great addition to the series IMO - and QoS in particular has some great fights.
You're also right about fights in films being over-choreographed - the Matrix features some of the best fighting I've seen in film - but still remains heavily planned. And the actors were trained non-stop before them too.
I guess it begs the question of this thread:
1) What are the worst fights? Because they were just rubbish.
2) What are the worst fights? Because they were heavily and overly edited/choreographed.
"Better make that two."
I agree. I miss the judo element, and over the shoulder throws etc.
Thanks for that bit of info - was not aware of that fact!
Since the characters in the Matrix films were supposed to be inside a computer simulated program the ballet like fights helped re-enforce this perception for me.
Yes, ditto for me, this info is not usually mentioned in OHMSS "making of" accounts, thank you!
Which is why I thought the SF fights on the train and in Shanghai looked fake, because they were ballet-like though it seems that was the intention with the Shanghai fight esp. w/the neon light in the background.
I've neven been a fan of the Shanghai fight, but the whole scenes in Shanghai are quite mesmerising and are an incredible aesthetic that I can look past it.
The fight in the hotel room/balcony at Port au Prince - QoS - is one of the most realistic fights I've seen in Bond. It's pretty brutal. I remember hearing people at the movies being quite shocked at how intense it was.
"Better make that two."
On the other hand, I find elements of Lazenby's fights in OHMSS campy and comical -- from the strange "tie her to the tracks" music that John Barry musters up, to Peter Hunt's zoom camerawork, to the windmill punches Bond delivers.
I had a former combat veteran in my class and showed the teaser to Goldfinger, and he said it was the most realistic fight he had seen in a Bond movie. I asked him why. He said it was because they were clumsy and neither very choreographed nor exchanging dozens and dozens of blows as though invulnerable to pain. When two men are fighting life and death, he said, it's awkward and over as quickly as possible, not like the protracted ballets that modern films privilege.
So, to each their own. But the least exciting hand-to-hand fights for me have either been in Moore's or Brosnan's films.
The specific few frames that I mean are when you see Rog and the henchmen on the baddie's tv screen and he says "trouble!" (or something like that). It just looks really stupid. I think Rog throws one of them at the other and they both fall over!
Even "trouble" is weak. No s**t Sherlock.
"Better make that two."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34OMxoZTv-c
I find the punches and kicks very noticeably overdubbed in that one, even though I do enjoy watching it.
Yes this for me is possibly the worst choreographed fight in the series. All down to the speed and because it looks so fake.