There's not much "body" and "weight" to a lot of film scores today, which is odd considering they use bigger and bigger orchestras. Compare what you hear in a standard action film to day to, say, this stupendous bit by the great Miklos Rosza in The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes, which, too, reminds me of some of Barry's earlier work:
That Rosza score is brilliant, and I can hear the similarities with what Barry was writing at the time. A string quartet can have more weight than a huge orchestra if the composition is written with more depth. Compare it to how large film budgets can't make up for a lack of good writing.
I compare Barry's Bond scores to Bernard Herrmann's Hitchcock scores....they played a significant part in the films both dramatically and in contributing a unique identity. Other great composers had this effect to an extent (certainly John Williams w/ Star Wars, Indiana Jones, etc) however I must agree other than Danny Elfman and the gentleman who scores the Game of Thrones series there's very little of that in today's film scores which sound very generic to my ears.
Elfman may not be Barry, Williams, Hermann, Rosza or Goldsmith, but he's a hell of a lot more talented than Hans Zimmer and his disciples. I'd place Elfman slightly above Thomas Newman.
I'd place elfman a tad higher than newman. Like Howardb I also consider the score adding identity and extra gravitas to what's on screen, a few pieces aside both newmans scores detracted from the action sequences particularly. If Arnold had those scores I dont think sp would have been so heavily criticised. Zimmers work just all sounds like the same score with the exception of pirates of the carribean, even newmans sf shanghai piece jellyfish sounds very like Zimmers work.
It seems to me that film music has tended to shy away from melodic, hummable themes in recent years. I think that Bond films need to follow a more classic approach. It's hard to say which composer is best suited to this because almost nobody seems to be working in that sort of style these days. And certainly the world of film music, especially in the action/thriller genre, seems to be saturated with either the music of Hans Zimmer, or his clones and imitators. Thomas Newman had the potential to do something great, but I don't think he got it quite right. The person most likely to succeed still seems to be David Arnold, but I think he needs to be given the opportunity to write the song as well as the score, so that he can integrate the main theme into the overall soundtrack. He did this in Casino Royale, with excellent results.
I'd place elfman a tad higher than newman. Like Howardb I also consider the score adding identity and extra gravitas to what's on screen, a few pieces aside both newmans scores detracted from the action sequences particularly. If Arnold had those scores I dont think sp would have been so heavily criticised. Zimmers work just all sounds like the same score with the exception of pirates of the carribean, even newmans sf shanghai piece jellyfish sounds very like Zimmers work.
I agree. SP needed a more Bondian score and a more meaningful score. Music can add a lot more emotion to a film, and it can make the emotions we see feel more legitimate. Spectre needed music to add legitimacy to the story, but Newman's music doesn't have the complexity or the familiarity to do so. Many movies need memorable theme, like those by John Barry, to add meaning and feeling to the film. If we can't remember the music, the music won't have any weight. John Barry's use of We Have All the Time in the World is his best example in the Bond series. It is used a lot and ties our feelings to different events in the film. If we're supposed to feel there is love between Bond and Madeleine in SP, Newman should have used a memorable recurring theme. I don't think Newman has written a memorable theme in his life.
There's not much "body" and "weight" to a lot of film scores today, which is odd considering they use bigger and bigger orchestras. Compare what you hear in a standard action film to day to, say, this stupendous bit by the great Miklos Rosza in The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes, which, too, reminds me of some of Barry's earlier work:
Excellent music there. It seems to me many composers these days don't go for catchy memorable melodies. Just mood. It's not like I can walk around humming the music to MAN OF STEEL because it's stuck in my head. I don't remember anything about that score or pretty much any score for a film I've seen in the last 10 years or so. SP, especially being a Bond film, most certainly should have had it's own distinct sound, but didn't.
It is more than a bit strange how with SPECTRE the filmakers made sure there was plenty of "homage" to classic Bond.......except the score. Newman's Bond scores weren't terrible but very pedestrian except for a couple of themes (which of course were very "Barry"). The one non-negotiable that EON needs to establish is that a real "Bond" score is delivered. The director can hire whoever they want, but in the end the score needs to reflect the Bond musical canon. Just like Daniel Craig and Timothy Dalton went back to Fleming to develop and influence their portrayals, the composer needs to go back to the classic Barry scores for inspiration.
It seems to me many composers these days don't go for catchy memorable melodies. Just mood.
This is true, but even when they go for just mood it's often just one simple chord with a drum beat. It's something steady and continuous, which quickly loses any meaning. There's usually no development to create a more complex mood. John Barry knew how to do mood better than anyone. Just listen to Gumbold's Safe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT0wST0m43U. It's really a very simple piece using simple concepts of composition, but even something this simple is too complicated for so many modern composers.
It is more than a bit strange how with SPECTRE the filmakers made sure there was plenty of "homage" to classic Bond.......except the score.
To be fair, there was a moment of homage during the boat chase at the end with a trumpet line from Thunderball. I'll give Newman that one. But overall the score had little in common with classic Bond scores and had a much different effect on the overall film.
I'd place elfman a tad higher than newman. Like Howardb I also consider the score adding identity and extra gravitas to what's on screen, a few pieces aside both newmans scores detracted from the action sequences particularly. If Arnold had those scores I dont think sp would have been so heavily criticised. Zimmers work just all sounds like the same score with the exception of pirates of the carribean, even newmans sf shanghai piece jellyfish sounds very like Zimmers work.
I agree. SP needed a more Bondian score and a more meaningful score. Music can add a lot more emotion to a film, and it can make the emotions we see feel more legitimate. Spectre needed music to add legitimacy to the story, but Newman's music doesn't have the complexity or the familiarity to do so. Many movies need memorable theme, like those by John Barry, to add meaning and feeling to the film. If we can't remember the music, the music won't have any weight. John Barry's use of We Have All the Time in the World is his best example in the Bond series. It is used a lot and ties our feelings to different events in the film. If we're supposed to feel there is love between Bond and Madeleine in SP, Newman should have used a memorable recurring theme. I don't think Newman has written a memorable theme in his life.
Spectre was one of the most forgettable and boring score's I've ever heard, not to mention there was a bit too much material copy and pasted from SF. In contrast I actually love Newman's score for SF. I agree that a lot of it is very bland and generic, but theres often moments or tracks that are among my favorite cues in the series. the cue "she's mine" for example, though its definitely very Zimmer-ish, has a lot of emotion and I love how Newman incorporates the Bond theme within the track. Also the track isn't fussy and overburdening like most of the action music in SP.
I'd place elfman a tad higher than newman. Like Howardb I also consider the score adding identity and extra gravitas to what's on screen, a few pieces aside both newmans scores detracted from the action sequences particularly. If Arnold had those scores I dont think sp would have been so heavily criticised. Zimmers work just all sounds like the same score with the exception of pirates of the carribean, even newmans sf shanghai piece jellyfish sounds very like Zimmers work.
I agree. SP needed a more Bondian score and a more meaningful score. Music can add a lot more emotion to a film, and it can make the emotions we see feel more legitimate. Spectre needed music to add legitimacy to the story, but Newman's music doesn't have the complexity or the familiarity to do so. Many movies need memorable theme, like those by John Barry, to add meaning and feeling to the film. If we can't remember the music, the music won't have any weight. John Barry's use of We Have All the Time in the World is his best example in the Bond series. It is used a lot and ties our feelings to different events in the film. If we're supposed to feel there is love between Bond and Madeleine in SP, Newman should have used a memorable recurring theme. I don't think Newman has written a memorable theme in his life.
Arnold achieved that result for me in cr, with the vesper music, simple piano riff but like we have all the time in the world it is paced very differently to the rest of the score. For some reason in my mind when I think of the snow plane sequence in sp I hear the Haiti boat chase music from qos! I only really remember two newman tracks, tennyson and the day of the dead.
I'd place elfman a tad higher than newman. Like Howardb I also consider the score adding identity and extra gravitas to what's on screen, a few pieces aside both newmans scores detracted from the action sequences particularly. If Arnold had those scores I dont think sp would have been so heavily criticised. Zimmers work just all sounds like the same score with the exception of pirates of the carribean, even newmans sf shanghai piece jellyfish sounds very like Zimmers work.
I agree. SP needed a more Bondian score and a more meaningful score. Music can add a lot more emotion to a film, and it can make the emotions we see feel more legitimate. Spectre needed music to add legitimacy to the story, but Newman's music doesn't have the complexity or the familiarity to do so. Many movies need memorable theme, like those by John Barry, to add meaning and feeling to the film. If we can't remember the music, the music won't have any weight. John Barry's use of We Have All the Time in the World is his best example in the Bond series. It is used a lot and ties our feelings to different events in the film. If we're supposed to feel there is love between Bond and Madeleine in SP, Newman should have used a memorable recurring theme. I don't think Newman has written a memorable theme in his life.
Spectre was one of the most forgettable and boring score's I've ever heard, not to mention there was a bit too much material copy and pasted from SF. In contrast I actually love Newman's score for SF. I agree that a lot of it is very bland and generic, but theres often moments or tracks that are among my favorite cues in the series. the cue "she's mine" for example, though its definitely very Zimmer-ish, has a lot of emotion and I love how Newman incorporates the Bond theme within the track. Also the track isn't fussy and overburdening like most of the action music in SP.
Howardb summed up sp's soundtrack perfectly...... Pedestrian!
David Arnold, Michael Giacchino or Joe Kraemer would be my top picks for Bond Composer. I'm so sick of Newman's bland copy/pasted efforts. I want the Bond sound, not the Hans Zimmer Dark Knight sound.
Exactly! I thought I was the only one, who felt that Newman was trying to imitate Zimmer's style for The Dark Knight
- I take this is not a social call, 007.
- Correct. You should have brought lilies
David Arnold, Michael Giacchino or Joe Kraemer would be my top picks for Bond Composer. I'm so sick of Newman's bland copy/pasted efforts. I want the Bond sound, not the Hans Zimmer Dark Knight sound.
Exactly! I thought I was the only one, who felt that Newman was trying to imitate Zimmer's style for The Dark Knight
No, a lot of us feel that way! Most action film composers have been copying Zimmer, though the majority of them work for or have worked for Zimmer's music factory. Newman has no ties to Zimmer, so he has no excuse for writing such trite music.
I would love to hear Christopher Young's score for Bond. Very underrated composer. Also, Joe Kraemer would be great too. As long as it doesn't sounds like generic "Remote Control Productions" score, it's okay.
- I take this is not a social call, 007.
- Correct. You should have brought lilies
David Arnold, Michael Giacchino or Joe Kraemer would be my top picks for Bond Composer. I'm so sick of Newman's bland copy/pasted efforts. I want the Bond sound, not the Hans Zimmer Dark Knight sound.
Exactly! I thought I was the only one, who felt that Newman was trying to imitate Zimmer's style for The Dark Knight
Though I'm a massive fan of Newman's SF score I gotta admit that certain tracks do reek of Zimmer, but I'm an avid Zimmer fan so it doesn't hurt my enjoyment at all.
David Arnold, Michael Giacchino or Joe Kraemer would be my top picks for Bond Composer. I'm so sick of Newman's bland copy/pasted efforts. I want the Bond sound, not the Hans Zimmer Dark Knight sound.
Exactly! I thought I was the only one, who felt that Newman was trying to imitate Zimmer's style for The Dark Knight
As for the "Bond sound", certain moments in SF's score delivered more of the "Bond sound" then both the CR and QOS scores to my ears.
David Arnold, Michael Giacchino or Joe Kraemer would be my top picks for Bond Composer. I'm so sick of Newman's bland copy/pasted efforts. I want the Bond sound, not the Hans Zimmer Dark Knight sound.
Exactly! I thought I was the only one, who felt that Newman was trying to imitate Zimmer's style for The Dark Knight
As for the "Bond sound", certain moments in SF's score delivered more of the "Bond sound" then both the CR and QOS scores to my ears.
SF's score delivered the Bond sound in an obvious way in a few brief moments, like Newman thinks they can makeup for his very un-Bond-like score. The CR score delivered the Bond sound in a more subtle way throughout more of the score. The Bond Theme isn't necessarily the Bond sound, but Newman could have used more of that too.
Exactly! I thought I was the only one, who felt that Newman was trying to imitate Zimmer's style for The Dark Knight
As for the "Bond sound", certain moments in SF's score delivered more of the "Bond sound" then both the CR and QOS scores to my ears.
SF's score delivered the Bond sound in an obvious way in a few brief moments, like Newman thinks they can makeup for his very un-Bond-like score. The CR score delivered the Bond sound in a more subtle way throughout more of the score. The Bond Theme isn't necessarily the Bond sound, but Newman could have used more of that too.
Absolutely, Newman deliver's some very brief moments of brilliant bombastic Bond music throughout SF (She's mine, deep water) which stick out amongst his ultra subdued minimalistic style, its a shame he didn't inject more moments like that into the score.
As for the "Bond sound", certain moments in SF's score delivered more of the "Bond sound" then both the CR and QOS scores to my ears.
SF's score delivered the Bond sound in an obvious way in a few brief moments, like Newman thinks they can makeup for his very un-Bond-like score. The CR score delivered the Bond sound in a more subtle way throughout more of the score. The Bond Theme isn't necessarily the Bond sound, but Newman could have used more of that too.
Absolutely, Newman deliver's some very brief moments of brilliant bombastic Bond music throughout SF (She's mine, deep water) which stick out amongst his ultra subdued minimalistic style, its a shame he didn't inject more moments like that into the score.
A good score needs more than just a certain number of Bondian moments. Moments are superficial. A film score is a single piece of music where the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts.
A good score needs more than just a certain number of Bondian moments. Moments are superficial. A film score is a single piece of music where the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts.
Good point. Try listening to a CD of an entire Barry Bond score vs an entire Newman Bond score. The Barry score makes you feel like you just experienced the film again. The Newman score, not so much..... As Matt pointed out, the Newman scores are ok as generic action film scores with a few nice Bondian moments but really fall terribly short as complete Bond scores. Barry set the bar very high, with Arnold coming in a distant second but far ahead of anyone else.
I quite like newmans scores as their own entity, in the car driving. But alongside the film they just don't deliver, the score should involve your senses more, complementing what your eyes are seeing and newmans just dont have that. For me it actually detracts from the viewing pleasure, I get, some pieces work better than others with a couple of standout moments. Arnolds scores have the ability to add tension or drama and drive action. Sequences.
I quite like newmans scores as their own entity, in the car driving. But alongside the film they just don't deliver, the score should involve your senses more, complementing what your eyes are seeing and newmans just dont have that. For me it actually detracts from the viewing pleasure, I get, some pieces work better than others with a couple of standout moments. Arnolds scores have the ability to add tension or drama and drive action. Sequences.
SF's score certainly delivers some standout moments, think of Bond after he see's his Aston Martin get blown up or when he's fighting the bad guy underneath the frozen lake. SP on the other hand had no standout moments which is odd considering it was a more proper Bond film then SF that warranted a more bombastic Bond score.
SF's score had the pleasure of being original. it's the better of Newman's two efforts but I'm not a fan of either though. How about Christopher Lennertz? He composed the scores for video game versions of From Russia with Love and Quantum of Solace. Both are great Bondian scores especially his FRWL Game score. Here's some of his work on Both.
SF's score had the pleasure of being original. it's the better of Newman's two efforts but I'm not a fan of either though. How about Christopher Lennertz? He composed the scores for video game versions of From Russia with Love and Quantum of Solace. Both are great Bondian scores especially his FRWL Game score. Here's some of his work on Both.
Just from these tracks, Lennertz has done a great job creating music with a Bond feel and a complex mood. But he's also just copying David Arnold (the TND film feel for the FRWL game and the QOS film feel for the QOS game). For video games, he does a great job because it relates the music of the game to music of the films. He doesn't offer anything of his own, and I feel that it's necessary for writing a film score. Maybe he can, or maybe he can't. Granted, doing a great job at copying another composer who wrote great Bond scores would be better than Newman's drivel. It's the ability to come up with something original whilst still making it clear that the music is a Bond score that's the true challenge of writing a great Bond score. Arnold clearly took inspiration from Barry, but he didn't copy Barry. Hamlisch took from Barry at times but also added a lot of his own style. Martin had a completely different style from Barry, but he uses the Bond theme enough that you know it's Bond music. I could easily write a Bond score that sounds like something Barry wrote, but I don't know how much I could offer innovation-wise. Copying the Bond sound isn't enough. But Newman's approach of largely ignoring the Bond sound and not using the Bond theme when it needs to be there is not the right approach. When he offers his own sound in the romantic themes, it's really good. When he looks to Hans Zimmer for action music rather than to John Barry, that's not so good. He clearly didn't know how to approach action music.
I disagree. I don't really get an Arnold vibe from Lennertz's work. His FRWL score has more Barry inspiration of course but it's more a classical approach. Unfortunately I couldn't find more examples on youtube. His QoS score doesn't at all make me think of Arnold's QoS score. Though I think it's weaker than his FRWL score. I think he'd do a good Bond film score though. Much better than Newman's stuff.
"No for me."
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"
Hard to really form a complete opinion regarding Lennertz's game scores from the samples that Bruce kindly posted but there certainly is potential. The one thing I find them to be missing is melody, something of course that Barry was the master of and something that Arnold
did a nice job of in both CR and QOS (which would have been even better if he had a decent theme song to work with).
I disagree. I don't really get an Arnold vibe from Lennertz's work. His FRWL score has more Barry inspiration of course but it's more a classical approach. Unfortunately I couldn't find more examples on youtube. His QoS score doesn't at all make me think of Arnold's QoS score. Though I think it's weaker than his FRWL score. I think he'd do a good Bond film score though. Much better than Newman's stuff.
The FRWL music has some material that's taken straight from the Hamburg action scenes in TND.
I disagree. I don't really get an Arnold vibe from Lennertz's work. His FRWL score has more Barry inspiration of course but it's more a classical approach. Unfortunately I couldn't find more examples on youtube. His QoS score doesn't at all make me think of Arnold's QoS score. Though I think it's weaker than his FRWL score. I think he'd do a good Bond film score though. Much better than Newman's stuff.
The FRWL music has some material that's taken straight from the Hamburg action scenes in TND.
I'm not hearing that at all. Could point out the time from which you heard that?
"No for me."
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"
I disagree. I don't really get an Arnold vibe from Lennertz's work. His FRWL score has more Barry inspiration of course but it's more a classical approach. Unfortunately I couldn't find more examples on youtube. His QoS score doesn't at all make me think of Arnold's QoS score. Though I think it's weaker than his FRWL score. I think he'd do a good Bond film score though. Much better than Newman's stuff.
The FRWL music has some material that's taken straight from the Hamburg action scenes in TND.
I'm not hearing that at all. Could point out the time from which you heard that?
In 'Big Ben', the fanfare from 1:24 to 1:27 is pure Arnold. Some of the horns a little later in the piece are also very Arnold-like.
In 'Jetpack Escape' there's a 5 note motif that Arnold used throughout TND.
The chords and orchestrations during the loud moments are very similar to what Arnold used. The softer moments are more Barry.
Comments
That Rosza score is brilliant, and I can hear the similarities with what Barry was writing at the time. A string quartet can have more weight than a huge orchestra if the composition is written with more depth. Compare it to how large film budgets can't make up for a lack of good writing.
Elfman may not be Barry, Williams, Hermann, Rosza or Goldsmith, but he's a hell of a lot more talented than Hans Zimmer and his disciples. I'd place Elfman slightly above Thomas Newman.
I agree. SP needed a more Bondian score and a more meaningful score. Music can add a lot more emotion to a film, and it can make the emotions we see feel more legitimate. Spectre needed music to add legitimacy to the story, but Newman's music doesn't have the complexity or the familiarity to do so. Many movies need memorable theme, like those by John Barry, to add meaning and feeling to the film. If we can't remember the music, the music won't have any weight. John Barry's use of We Have All the Time in the World is his best example in the Bond series. It is used a lot and ties our feelings to different events in the film. If we're supposed to feel there is love between Bond and Madeleine in SP, Newman should have used a memorable recurring theme. I don't think Newman has written a memorable theme in his life.
Excellent music there. It seems to me many composers these days don't go for catchy memorable melodies. Just mood. It's not like I can walk around humming the music to MAN OF STEEL because it's stuck in my head. I don't remember anything about that score or pretty much any score for a film I've seen in the last 10 years or so. SP, especially being a Bond film, most certainly should have had it's own distinct sound, but didn't.
This is true, but even when they go for just mood it's often just one simple chord with a drum beat. It's something steady and continuous, which quickly loses any meaning. There's usually no development to create a more complex mood. John Barry knew how to do mood better than anyone. Just listen to Gumbold's Safe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT0wST0m43U. It's really a very simple piece using simple concepts of composition, but even something this simple is too complicated for so many modern composers.
To be fair, there was a moment of homage during the boat chase at the end with a trumpet line from Thunderball. I'll give Newman that one. But overall the score had little in common with classic Bond scores and had a much different effect on the overall film.
Exactly! I thought I was the only one, who felt that Newman was trying to imitate Zimmer's style for The Dark Knight
- Correct. You should have brought lilies
No, a lot of us feel that way! Most action film composers have been copying Zimmer, though the majority of them work for or have worked for Zimmer's music factory. Newman has no ties to Zimmer, so he has no excuse for writing such trite music.
- Correct. You should have brought lilies
David Arnold.
-Casino Royale, Ian Fleming
SF's score delivered the Bond sound in an obvious way in a few brief moments, like Newman thinks they can makeup for his very un-Bond-like score. The CR score delivered the Bond sound in a more subtle way throughout more of the score. The Bond Theme isn't necessarily the Bond sound, but Newman could have used more of that too.
A good score needs more than just a certain number of Bondian moments. Moments are superficial. A film score is a single piece of music where the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts.
Good point. Try listening to a CD of an entire Barry Bond score vs an entire Newman Bond score. The Barry score makes you feel like you just experienced the film again. The Newman score, not so much..... As Matt pointed out, the Newman scores are ok as generic action film scores with a few nice Bondian moments but really fall terribly short as complete Bond scores. Barry set the bar very high, with Arnold coming in a distant second but far ahead of anyone else.
Big Ben: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xe6vs799D8
Big Ben Arrival/ Jetpack Escape: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpWH7Ukg5qw
On the Barge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqhh86nTybQ
Science Center (Alex Dimitios Fight) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itU2JVoINK8
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"
Just from these tracks, Lennertz has done a great job creating music with a Bond feel and a complex mood. But he's also just copying David Arnold (the TND film feel for the FRWL game and the QOS film feel for the QOS game). For video games, he does a great job because it relates the music of the game to music of the films. He doesn't offer anything of his own, and I feel that it's necessary for writing a film score. Maybe he can, or maybe he can't. Granted, doing a great job at copying another composer who wrote great Bond scores would be better than Newman's drivel. It's the ability to come up with something original whilst still making it clear that the music is a Bond score that's the true challenge of writing a great Bond score. Arnold clearly took inspiration from Barry, but he didn't copy Barry. Hamlisch took from Barry at times but also added a lot of his own style. Martin had a completely different style from Barry, but he uses the Bond theme enough that you know it's Bond music. I could easily write a Bond score that sounds like something Barry wrote, but I don't know how much I could offer innovation-wise. Copying the Bond sound isn't enough. But Newman's approach of largely ignoring the Bond sound and not using the Bond theme when it needs to be there is not the right approach. When he offers his own sound in the romantic themes, it's really good. When he looks to Hans Zimmer for action music rather than to John Barry, that's not so good. He clearly didn't know how to approach action music.
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"
did a nice job of in both CR and QOS (which would have been even better if he had a decent theme song to work with).
The FRWL music has some material that's taken straight from the Hamburg action scenes in TND.
I'm not hearing that at all. Could point out the time from which you heard that?
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"
In 'Big Ben', the fanfare from 1:24 to 1:27 is pure Arnold. Some of the horns a little later in the piece are also very Arnold-like.
In 'Jetpack Escape' there's a 5 note motif that Arnold used throughout TND.
The chords and orchestrations during the loud moments are very similar to what Arnold used. The softer moments are more Barry.