I'm still not really feeling that. I get what you're saying though. Those weren't really the best examples I could find. Sadly aside from those 2 samples the rest of the game score isn't on Youtube. One of my favorite tracks from the game uses the 4 note Motif Barry used for his music for OHMSS. It's a nice little homage.
"No for me."
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"
SF's score had the pleasure of being original. it's the better of Newman's two efforts but I'm not a fan of either though. How about Christopher Lennertz? He composed the scores for video game versions of From Russia with Love and Quantum of Solace. Both are great Bondian scores especially his FRWL Game score. Here's some of his work on Both.
Just from these tracks, Lennertz has done a great job creating music with a Bond feel and a complex mood. But he's also just copying David Arnold (the TND film feel for the FRWL game and the QOS film feel for the QOS game). For video games, he does a great job because it relates the music of the game to music of the films. He doesn't offer anything of his own, and I feel that it's necessary for writing a film score. Maybe he can, or maybe he can't. Granted, doing a great job at copying another composer who wrote great Bond scores would be better than Newman's drivel. It's the ability to come up with something original whilst still making it clear that the music is a Bond score that's the true challenge of writing a great Bond score. Arnold clearly took inspiration from Barry, but he didn't copy Barry. Hamlisch took from Barry at times but also added a lot of his own style. Martin had a completely different style from Barry, but he uses the Bond theme enough that you know it's Bond music. I could easily write a Bond score that sounds like something Barry wrote, but I don't know how much I could offer innovation-wise. Copying the Bond sound isn't enough. But Newman's approach of largely ignoring the Bond sound and not using the Bond theme when it needs to be there is not the right approach. When he offers his own sound in the romantic themes, it's really good. When he looks to Hans Zimmer for action music rather than to John Barry, that's not so good. He clearly didn't know how to approach action music.
I really liked what Newman did with the Bond theme for a lot of SF, it was one of the things that I was most excited about when he was brought on considering his music is the polar opposite of the usual Bond sound. I also felt Arnold's QOS score reeked of DAD and didn't have many good Bond theme uses beyond the end titles, so I welcomed a new take. In SF there's classic takes on the theme like In "breadcrumbs" and "silva's capture" but also his own interpretation in "someone usually dies" and the end of "breadcrumbs". Most tracks on the score have the Bond theme somewhere. My personal favorite is on strings I think it is in the middle of "she's mine". Spectre features really no new uses of theme except copy and pasted from SF. Also its where I think there were obvious missed opportunities to blast the Bond theme, particularly since Spectre was a more a typical Bond adventure that warranted big Bond theme moments.
My problem with his music was he barely used it during times it should have been used. His action music in Skyfall was much better than in Spectre though. I wonder what the hell happened that caused him to recycle so much from Skyfall...
"No for me."
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"
My problem with his music was he barely used it during times it should have been used. His action music in Skyfall was much better than in Spectre though. I wonder what the hell happened that caused him to recycle so much from Skyfall...
The only music in SF that I think is genuinely lackluster was most of the London underground chase music and the first attack on Skyfall lodge. Outside "shes mine" and "deep water" I definitely agree with Matt that Newman's action music isn't particularly good, But it doesn't detract from the film like a lot of Spectre's action music does.
My problem with his music was he barely used it during times it should have been used. His action music in Skyfall was much better than in Spectre though. I wonder what the hell happened that caused him to recycle so much from Skyfall...
The only music in SF that I think is genuinely lackluster was most of the London underground chase music and the first attack on Skyfall lodge. Outside "shes mine" and "deep water" I definitely agree with Matt that Newman's action music isn't particularly good, But it doesn't detract from the film like a lot of Spectre's action music does.
Agreed. In my last rewatch of Skyfall, the music was serviceable to the visuals but on it's own I don't really listen it much. Though for Spectre it was much worse aside from 3 great tracks the rest is Skyfall leftovers and that disappointed me heavily.
"No for me."
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"
Agree 100 percent... Spectre had a few decent tracks but totally ripped off Skyfall... I would really like to see David Arnold back if Craig is back for one or two more...
My problem with his music was he barely used it during times it should have been used. His action music in Skyfall was much better than in Spectre though. I wonder what the hell happened that caused him to recycle so much from Skyfall...
The only music in SF that I think is genuinely lackluster was most of the London underground chase music and the first attack on Skyfall lodge. Outside "shes mine" and "deep water" I definitely agree with Matt that Newman's action music isn't particularly good, But it doesn't detract from the film like a lot of Spectre's action music does.
Agreed. In my last rewatch of Skyfall, the music was serviceable to the visuals but on it's own I don't really listen it much. Though for Spectre it was much worse aside from 3 great tracks the rest is Skyfall leftovers and that disappointed me heavily.
Thunderbird 2East of Cardiff, Wales.Posts: 2,817MI6 Agent
SFX Magazine focus on Bond in their "What do you want to see?" Article this months edition.
I got name checked for highlighting that Mr Arnold should come back to do the music.
Only David Arnold has really established a solid Bond style since Mr Barry.
Thomas Newman does "nice" music. - Finding Nemo springs to mind...
This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?
Ever since the late 1980s, it's been vogue for many TV and film producers to want "sonic wallpaper" as scores, which is to say rather bland, generic, and minimalist tonal accompaniment. The later Star Trek TV series, for instance, were infamous for this. This is largely a reaction by my generation to the more bombastic and, in my opinion, creatively interesting scores of TV and film in the previous decades. There's a sense among Gen-Xers in particular that with rare exception -- Star Wars, for instance -- less is more, and anything big and loud is campy. The more artsy-fartsy the film maker -- and Sam Mendes has pretensions of being an artist -- the more likely they are to use something barely approximating music, a la Thomas Newman, who has little of the talent or vision of his father, who created such iconic scores as How the West Was Won:
Ever since the late 1980s, it's been vogue for many TV and film producers to want "sonic wallpaper" as scores, which is to say rather bland, generic, and minimalist tonal accompaniment. The later Star Trek TV series, for instance, were infamous for this. This is largely a reaction by my generation to the more bombastic and, in my opinion, creatively interesting scores of TV and film in the previous decades. There's a sense among Gen-Xers in particular that with rare exception -- Star Wars, for instance -- less is more, and anything big and loud is campy. The more artsy-fartsy the film maker -- and Sam Mendes has pretensions of being an artist -- the more likely they are to use something barely approximating music, a la Thomas Newman, who has little of the talent or vision of his father, who created such iconic scores as How the West Was Won:
How The West Was Won has fantastic music. Though that particular sound is outdated, the concepts behind the music could still work (memorable themes and a level of energy that fits the film). I didn't know that people find bombastic scores campy. But I suppose that also applies to any music that resembles proper music? Music that doesn't match the film, like Newman's in the Bond films, just seems completely wrong to me. An exciting scene without exciting music just seems boring. On the other hand, loud, bombastic music would not fit a small film that feels more like a play, but I just don't understand why people find the concepts of good musical composition to be campy.
Some movies need a bombastic orchestral score, such as Star Wars. Other movies such as kitchen sink dramas would seem silly with them. Bond movies probably don't need quite the Wagnerian style of SW, but definitely need a melodic score played by an orchestra.
Some movies need a bombastic orchestral score, such as Star Wars. Other movies such as kitchen sink dramas would seem silly with them. Bond movies probably don't need quite the Wagnerian style of SW, but definitely need a melodic score played by an orchestra.
But is there a reason why a kitchen sink drama couldn't have a score that uses the same principles of an old Bond score: melodic, developed music that fits the scenes and feelings of the characters? Today it's all generic "sonic wallpaper", as Gassy Man put it, no matter what the film is.
Yes, different types of movies need different scores. Bond scores are a special type of music and I think they should continue that tradition.
Bond scores are not a special type of music. John Barry wrote all his scores with the same attention to musicality. Just about all composers up to the late 1980s used concepts of musical composition when writing film music.
For a more naturalistic feel, no music is better. Lots of documentaries have wonderful, memorable music. Often melodic music is used in documentaries to help tell the story that the documentary is trying to tell.
Ever since the late 1980s, it's been vogue for many TV and film producers to want "sonic wallpaper" as scores, which is to say rather bland, generic, and minimalist tonal accompaniment. The later Star Trek TV series, for instance, were infamous for this. This is largely a reaction by my generation to the more bombastic and, in my opinion, creatively interesting scores of TV and film in the previous decades. There's a sense among Gen-Xers in particular that with rare exception -- Star Wars, for instance -- less is more, and anything big and loud is campy. The more artsy-fartsy the film maker -- and Sam Mendes has pretensions of being an artist -- the more likely they are to use something barely approximating music, a la Thomas Newman, who has little of the talent or vision of his father, who created such iconic scores as How the West Was Won:
How The West Was Won has fantastic music. Though that particular sound is outdated, the concepts behind the music could still work (memorable themes and a level of energy that fits the film). I didn't know that people find bombastic scores campy. But I suppose that also applies to any music that resembles proper music? Music that doesn't match the film, like Newman's in the Bond films, just seems completely wrong to me. An exciting scene without exciting music just seems boring. On the other hand, loud, bombastic music would not fit a small film that feels more like a play, but I just don't understand why people find the concepts of good musical composition to be campy.
Some, but not all, find bombastic scores campy. So do some people with regard to music that punctuates a moment they don't think is necessary, which is lampooned in Austin Powers:
This is in part due to changing tastes and in part to a postmodern aesthetic that over-intellectualizes everything. Because, the theory goes, we're already familiar from earlier films with the habit of punctuating a scene dramatically with music, it's no longer necessary, or at least it's no longer necessary in an obvious way. Star Wars, of course, defied this expectation, but then Star Wars essentially resurrected every space opera cliche that could be done, so in postmodern way, it's already invested in creating exactly that self-referential postmodern effect.
The issue with camp is that it's supposed to be intentional. They knew what they were doing in the Batman TV series, for instance. However, in more recent years, it's come to also be recognized as unintentional, which is to say because aesthetic values have changed, we can look at something that was done seriously at the time as now campy because our tastes have changed. To me, that's stupid, as tastes will change with generations, but quite a few so-called great thinkers have lobbied for such a definition.
In this, the more bombastic and punctuating scores of old may be viewed by a contemporary audience as campy, or at least inappropriate. The trend since the late 1980s has be to make scores minimalist so that they are taken more "seriously." This, too, shall pass some day. The big exception are things that either aren't meant to be taken seriously -- animation like The Incredibles, whose soundtrack pays homage to Bond, for instance -- or are nostalgic or outright fantasy -- Raiders of the Lost Ark or any of the surfeit of superhero movies we've been assaulted with for 20 years.
But I don't go to the movies to see minimalism. That's a TV and stage trope. I go to movies to see a cast of thousands, to witness visuals that wow me, and to hear music that I can hum on the way out of the theater. That's why I don't care for constant close ups of actors, unconvincing CGI, or sonic wallpaper. I don't need to be in a theater for that. I can watch such at home on DVD because essentially I'm just getting an overpriced TV show to begin with.
Thomas Newman actually uses his music to punctuate things that happen in action scenes, and he does it in the most obvious and unmusical ways that make it seem he has no idea what he's doing. And it does seem campy. When David Arnold did the same thing in his Bond scores (which he often did), it was much better because he did it within musical context.
For those of you who hated Newman's Bond scores (I loved Skyfall's score but hated Specre's) take comfort in the fact that he's done with the franchise now.
For those of you who hated Newman's Bond scores (I loved Skyfall's score but hated Specre's) take comfort in the fact that he's done with the franchise now.
There's just very little excitement to Newmans scores, it's very pedestrian and for me drains a bit of excitement out of what I'm watching.
Arnolds scores are exciting just to listen to. He actually has a passion for doing Bond which shows through in his arrangements.
For those of you who hated Newman's Bond scores (I loved Skyfall's score but hated Specre's) take comfort in the fact that he's done with the franchise now.
Mendes could come back and bring him with him.
Even if Craig returns, I don't think we'll get Mendes. At least that's what I'm telling myself.
On a slightly different tack, I'm listening to a lot of Steven Wilson's work, (formerly of Porcupine Tree). His solo work is exceptional, and he is also in demand as a producer, remixing many classic albums, with a meticulous eye to detail. I'm uncertain as to whether he has composed any film score as yet, although his scope is quite "cinematic"...however, if Bond is looking for a retro/contemporary feel, please take a listen to a track from his album 4 1/2 " Sunday Rain Sets In"... particularly at 1:20 & 2:22...and at 3:11 to the fade...remind you of anyone?..(apologies, as I'm not certain how to include a link).
Comments
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"
Agreed. In my last rewatch of Skyfall, the music was serviceable to the visuals but on it's own I don't really listen it much. Though for Spectre it was much worse aside from 3 great tracks the rest is Skyfall leftovers and that disappointed me heavily.
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"
I got name checked for highlighting that Mr Arnold should come back to do the music.
Only David Arnold has really established a solid Bond style since Mr Barry.
Thomas Newman does "nice" music. - Finding Nemo springs to mind...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwPI80EALPU
How The West Was Won has fantastic music. Though that particular sound is outdated, the concepts behind the music could still work (memorable themes and a level of energy that fits the film). I didn't know that people find bombastic scores campy. But I suppose that also applies to any music that resembles proper music? Music that doesn't match the film, like Newman's in the Bond films, just seems completely wrong to me. An exciting scene without exciting music just seems boring. On the other hand, loud, bombastic music would not fit a small film that feels more like a play, but I just don't understand why people find the concepts of good musical composition to be campy.
But is there a reason why a kitchen sink drama couldn't have a score that uses the same principles of an old Bond score: melodic, developed music that fits the scenes and feelings of the characters? Today it's all generic "sonic wallpaper", as Gassy Man put it, no matter what the film is.
Bond scores are not a special type of music. John Barry wrote all his scores with the same attention to musicality. Just about all composers up to the late 1980s used concepts of musical composition when writing film music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKKHSAE1gIs
This is in part due to changing tastes and in part to a postmodern aesthetic that over-intellectualizes everything. Because, the theory goes, we're already familiar from earlier films with the habit of punctuating a scene dramatically with music, it's no longer necessary, or at least it's no longer necessary in an obvious way. Star Wars, of course, defied this expectation, but then Star Wars essentially resurrected every space opera cliche that could be done, so in postmodern way, it's already invested in creating exactly that self-referential postmodern effect.
The issue with camp is that it's supposed to be intentional. They knew what they were doing in the Batman TV series, for instance. However, in more recent years, it's come to also be recognized as unintentional, which is to say because aesthetic values have changed, we can look at something that was done seriously at the time as now campy because our tastes have changed. To me, that's stupid, as tastes will change with generations, but quite a few so-called great thinkers have lobbied for such a definition.
In this, the more bombastic and punctuating scores of old may be viewed by a contemporary audience as campy, or at least inappropriate. The trend since the late 1980s has be to make scores minimalist so that they are taken more "seriously." This, too, shall pass some day. The big exception are things that either aren't meant to be taken seriously -- animation like The Incredibles, whose soundtrack pays homage to Bond, for instance -- or are nostalgic or outright fantasy -- Raiders of the Lost Ark or any of the surfeit of superhero movies we've been assaulted with for 20 years.
But I don't go to the movies to see minimalism. That's a TV and stage trope. I go to movies to see a cast of thousands, to witness visuals that wow me, and to hear music that I can hum on the way out of the theater. That's why I don't care for constant close ups of actors, unconvincing CGI, or sonic wallpaper. I don't need to be in a theater for that. I can watch such at home on DVD because essentially I'm just getting an overpriced TV show to begin with.
Mendes could come back and bring him with him.
Arnolds scores are exciting just to listen to. He actually has a passion for doing Bond which shows through in his arrangements.
Even if Craig returns, I don't think we'll get Mendes. At least that's what I'm telling myself.
Some news?
Same story that's being recycled by every garbage news outlet you can think of.
Michael Giacchino would be my second choice.
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"
What really drives me mad is that re-scoring actually would be possible. Anyone could do it really, but Newman. He was and is just wrong for Bond.
I have seen and heard some of your re-scores and they work so well!
Thank you and no kidding. With the time and right music I may attempt to rescore both movies fully one of these days.
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"