There is far too much being made of the Irish border! As I said, it's being played on as being far too important, the EU negotiators have agitated that particular aspect, feverishly scratching a deep wound which is just begining to heal under delicate stitches. If borders were such an issue for the EU then if like to know what physical presence they have on the Norwegian /Russian border? For obvious reasons that has far more serious connotations does it not? Or is it part of Norways deal that that are trusted to protect that border? In such a case then its the EU who have responsibility for the Irish border. Furthermore there is Sweden who is not part of the eurozone who have free and easy access to Norway and vice versa Swedish money can flow into Norway (not a member state) and that can't be counted in euros. The belief has long been held that the UK are the troublesome member of the EU, I don't hold with such views myself. Nor do I believe that in the "civilised West" we need a hard border on Ireland to progress meaningful negotiations.
Norway pays money and follows EU regulations better than most member countries for the prvilige of open borders to the EU. Are the Brexiters willing to do that, I wonder? Our border to Russia is guarded by a few customs officers and a company of conscripts with assault rifles, police authorities and an above average tollerance to cold. Because we have open borders to the EU market, they are guarding the Russian border on behalf of the EU too.
As far as it is widely and internationally reported, the backstop mechanism has been implemented on request of the Uk side.
I can only speculate why that was -probably because the UK negotiators wanted to avoid a hard border by all means in Ireland. So your argument that the Eu has overplayed that makes no sense.
EU wide there are many countries that don‘t have the Euro, so I don‘t understand what you are saying about the currency. The UK is not an Euro country and currently still is in the EU.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I try to put it from what I understand in easy words:
UK: EU, we will leave the EU in 2019 and after a transition period, the Customs Union in 2020
EU: Ok, that means a border between NI and the RI.
UK: We don't want that and the Irish people don't want it and the EU doesn't want it either.
EU: Ok, so let's put the EU border into the Irish Sea, which means that NI ports must do EU customs checks and protect the EU border.
UK: We don't want NI to be any different than any UK port
EU: Ok, so let's make a contract, that the entire UK, including NI remain in the EU custom's Union and call it the backstop.
This contract lasts as long as we both agree that we have found a technological way to protect the EU customs border that should normally be between NI and RI.
And in the EU custom's Union, you must obey to EU rules, pay a fee and can't do trade deals with other countries as long as you are part of it. Every member of the EU Custom's Union agrees to it by contract.
We end this contract, if both parties agree that there is a solution found for the RI/NI border checks.
Brexiteers: No, we don't want that, because the evil sneaky EU will handcuff us to the EU customs Union forever. We want to have a timelimit for that contract or have the right to pull out if the EU does not agree.
Now the problem is, that by the UK pulling out of that contract unilaterally, the NI/RI will remain unchecked and will be the open backdoor into the EU.
EU products are subject to many rules and regulations (some people call this the overbearing bureacracy, but in many instances, there are environmental, ethical, worksafety etc. reasons). Without enforcing these rules by border checks, UK companies could compete unfairly (because they don't need to obey to these rules anymore) with EU companies and that would be inacceptable.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
"The story is an old one, the record a clear one."
Forgetting all the side arguments, about which side promised what. As these are politicians
and they ALL, tell lies, ( Very naïve of politicians to think We haven't noticed ) )
the is one basic principle at the heart of the matter.
"Are you a democrat ?" up until this referendum it was simple. Whoever got the most
votes wins !
if you argue against this, ….. Then you can't call yourself a democrat you obviously
have a problem with democracy
It's the same in America, with the election of Trump. Like or loath him, He Won ! Using
the same system that gave us Obama, Clinton and JFK. If it was fine to elect them, why
is it suddenly faulty now ?
It would seem many love democracy when it suits them, but not when it doesn't
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
So lets take everything in our own hand and govern ourselfs without any background and just from the feelings of our guts
Sounds sane.
As for Trump. I partly agree with you that ( no matter how) he has been elected.
But he faces checks and balances and if he oversteps his line he must be punished.
I think, that the democrat leaders are well informed not to try to impeach him (now).
He must be voted out of office
It would seem many love democracy when it suits them, but not when it doesn't
And following what you said about elections:
I could take the position, that all the liar politicians ( your words not mine) have been democratically elected by you folks!
So take your own advise, stop moaning, deal with them until they are getting voted out.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
"Are you a democrat ?" up until this referendum it was simple. Whoever got the most
votes wins !
Unfortunately, the world is not only black or white and if you religiously follow that karma, you are polarizing your society like it is right now.
Politicians are well advised, even if they won by 52% to do their best to also improve the lifes of the 48% of people that didn‘t vote for them.
That is one of the reasons, why the EU is very slow and very compromising often. You have 27 nations with legitimate interest and you have to try to navigate thru that jungle in order to achieve the best results for everybody and not only for those who have „won“.
That‘s something that the UK never understood.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Personally I don't have an issue with the backstop, hard border in reality is impossible to implement, even during the troubles only main routes and patrols attempted to protect a border with literally thousands of roads and paths going accross it.
What annoys me is how the whole backstop, border issue has become the burning issue of the whole Brexit negotiation. I'm even more annoyed that Mays own redlines have pretty much dictated the eu's response, and all this on top of NI having its own devolved political issues recently. 8-)
" stop moaning, " My dear Higgins, just because I take an opposing position, doesn't mean I'm moaning.
Simply pointing out you either accept a democratic vote, ……… or You don't
I like to think I'm a democrat and accept the outcome, just as I would have accepted, if the other side
had won. {[]
The Irish government recently produced a large document on how it would deal with a No Deal Brexit.
Would anyone like to guess how many times the "Boarder" got a mention in it ? …….. Zero ! )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
... you have to try to navigate thru that jungle in order to achieve the best results for everybody and not only for those who have „won“.
That‘s something that the UK never understood.
Of course the UK understood that, imo those who voted to leave did so not because they didn't understand how the EU navigates though the jungle, but because of issues such as immigration. Ironic of course that the Uk is now also trying to navigate through its own jungle of differing views and interests in Parliament.
I do believe though, that if the EU had granted David Cameron more concessions in early 2016, he would never have instigated the referendum, and that our future would have been quite different now.
" stop moaning, " My dear Higgins, just because I take an opposing position, doesn't mean I'm moaning.
Simply pointing out you either accept a democratic vote, ……… or You don't
I like to think I'm a democrat and accept the outcome, just as I would have accepted, if the other side
had won. {[]
The Irish government recently produced a large document on how it would deal with a No Deal Brexit.
Would anyone like to guess how many times the "Boarder" got a mention in it ? …….. Zero ! )
Is that because they don't want it as much as the UK doesn't?
The whole issue with the island of Ireland is very complex and unless you've extensively researched all aspects of it or actually have or do live there then it's difficult to comment. It's just not as easy as putting up a border to divide Ireland nor is it appropriate to divide the UK.
) ) )
Strange how no one wants it, but everyone says it's a problem !
Like I said in an earlier post, it's become a very convenient misdirection, that has helped both the UK and the EU bury other issues. Our media is great at facilitating that.
I also work on the principle that I cannot agree with anyone who doesn't respect the
amazing acting talents of the great Timothy Dalton I get quite teary eyed over it.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
The Irish government recently produced a large document on how it would deal with a No Deal Brexit.
Would anyone like to guess how many times the "Boarder" got a mention in it ? …….. Zero ! )
The issue with the outside order for the common market is up to the EU to deal with and not Ireland.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Of course the UK understood that, imo those who voted to leave did so not because they didn't understand how the EU navigates though the jungle, but because of issues such as immigration. Ironic of course that the Uk is now also trying to navigate through its own jungle of differing views and interests in Parliament.
I do believe though, that if the EU had granted David Cameron more concessions in early 2016, he would never have instigated the referendum, and that our future would have been quite different now.
But that's exactly the problem.
Large parts of the EU have had enough from being blackmailed by the UK with a referendum just to get more and more concessions (vulgo cherrypicking).
Cameron wanted a general Veto, he wanted to limit freedom of movement of EU citizens and so on.
While I agree with you, that Brexit was mostly about imigration (with a strong xenophobic undertone may I say), the UK actually always wanted the common market only and were and still are dreaming about being oh so powerful in the globalized world to go their own way. Let's see if that is the case after Brexit and probably after Scotland and NI have left the UK.
I find it remarkable that the "democracy - defenders" (the vote was like that any doubting this in any kind is undemocratic) as first reaction plan to punish NI and Scotland with loans that have been granted by the UK incase that they are leaving. Isn't that punishing, the perceived punishing that you are receiving by the EU for Brexit? (and I've said perceived).
More and more concessions where angrying the other EU partners and it was a huge concern that others would follow the UK with the blackmailing.
But like I say, the UK never really wanted the EU, so the mess that we are in is unfortunate, but you can't hardly blame the EU for not budging with their 4 pillars just to let Cameron shine as the Knight who had the EU again on their knees.
It was Cameron's decision to hold that referendum and he's gotten elected by that promise. It's not the EUs fault, that he had unrealistic expectations from the dealings with the EU.
Same like Trump: He promise dto build the wall and got elected by it. You can't put the blame on Mexico now because Trump is not getting his way.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Nice to hear Ireland a sovereign country, has now no say
Over its own boarder, the EU dictates the terms. Thanks Higgins
You're making the Leave argument very well {[]
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Comments
You are on a run
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Higxit or Aspxit? Don’t tell me, all Bremont watches would be seized at the border and impounded?
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Stoopid Higgins : Stoopid Egg
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I can only speculate why that was -probably because the UK negotiators wanted to avoid a hard border by all means in Ireland. So your argument that the Eu has overplayed that makes no sense.
EU wide there are many countries that don‘t have the Euro, so I don‘t understand what you are saying about the currency. The UK is not an Euro country and currently still is in the EU.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The fuller story may be here and it gives you an idea how complicated this all is:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-44615404
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit_and_the_Irish_border
I try to put it from what I understand in easy words:
UK: EU, we will leave the EU in 2019 and after a transition period, the Customs Union in 2020
EU: Ok, that means a border between NI and the RI.
UK: We don't want that and the Irish people don't want it and the EU doesn't want it either.
EU: Ok, so let's put the EU border into the Irish Sea, which means that NI ports must do EU customs checks and protect the EU border.
UK: We don't want NI to be any different than any UK port
EU: Ok, so let's make a contract, that the entire UK, including NI remain in the EU custom's Union and call it the backstop.
This contract lasts as long as we both agree that we have found a technological way to protect the EU customs border that should normally be between NI and RI.
And in the EU custom's Union, you must obey to EU rules, pay a fee and can't do trade deals with other countries as long as you are part of it. Every member of the EU Custom's Union agrees to it by contract.
We end this contract, if both parties agree that there is a solution found for the RI/NI border checks.
Brexiteers: No, we don't want that, because the evil sneaky EU will handcuff us to the EU customs Union forever. We want to have a timelimit for that contract or have the right to pull out if the EU does not agree.
Now the problem is, that by the UK pulling out of that contract unilaterally, the NI/RI will remain unchecked and will be the open backdoor into the EU.
EU products are subject to many rules and regulations (some people call this the overbearing bureacracy, but in many instances, there are environmental, ethical, worksafety etc. reasons). Without enforcing these rules by border checks, UK companies could compete unfairly (because they don't need to obey to these rules anymore) with EU companies and that would be inacceptable.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Forgetting all the side arguments, about which side promised what. As these are politicians
and they ALL, tell lies, ( Very naïve of politicians to think We haven't noticed )
the is one basic principle at the heart of the matter.
"Are you a democrat ?" up until this referendum it was simple. Whoever got the most
votes wins !
if you argue against this, ….. Then you can't call yourself a democrat
have a problem with democracy
It's the same in America, with the election of Trump. Like or loath him, He Won ! Using
the same system that gave us Obama, Clinton and JFK. If it was fine to elect them, why
is it suddenly faulty now ?
It would seem many love democracy when it suits them, but not when it doesn't
So lets take everything in our own hand and govern ourselfs without any background and just from the feelings of our guts
Sounds sane.
As for Trump. I partly agree with you that ( no matter how) he has been elected.
But he faces checks and balances and if he oversteps his line he must be punished.
I think, that the democrat leaders are well informed not to try to impeach him (now).
He must be voted out of office
And following what you said about elections:
I could take the position, that all the liar politicians ( your words not mine) have been democratically elected by you folks!
So take your own advise, stop moaning, deal with them until they are getting voted out.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Unfortunately, the world is not only black or white and if you religiously follow that karma, you are polarizing your society like it is right now.
Politicians are well advised, even if they won by 52% to do their best to also improve the lifes of the 48% of people that didn‘t vote for them.
That is one of the reasons, why the EU is very slow and very compromising often. You have 27 nations with legitimate interest and you have to try to navigate thru that jungle in order to achieve the best results for everybody and not only for those who have „won“.
That‘s something that the UK never understood.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
What annoys me is how the whole backstop, border issue has become the burning issue of the whole Brexit negotiation. I'm even more annoyed that Mays own redlines have pretty much dictated the eu's response, and all this on top of NI having its own devolved political issues recently. 8-)
Simply pointing out you either accept a democratic vote, ……… or You don't
I like to think I'm a democrat and accept the outcome, just as I would have accepted, if the other side
had won. {[]
The Irish government recently produced a large document on how it would deal with a No Deal Brexit.
Would anyone like to guess how many times the "Boarder" got a mention in it ? …….. Zero !
Of course the UK understood that, imo those who voted to leave did so not because they didn't understand how the EU navigates though the jungle, but because of issues such as immigration. Ironic of course that the Uk is now also trying to navigate through its own jungle of differing views and interests in Parliament.
I do believe though, that if the EU had granted David Cameron more concessions in early 2016, he would never have instigated the referendum, and that our future would have been quite different now.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105
Strange how no one wants it, but everyone says it's a problem !
amazing acting talents of the great Timothy Dalton
The issue with the outside order for the common market is up to the EU to deal with and not Ireland.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
But that's exactly the problem.
Large parts of the EU have had enough from being blackmailed by the UK with a referendum just to get more and more concessions (vulgo cherrypicking).
Cameron wanted a general Veto, he wanted to limit freedom of movement of EU citizens and so on.
While I agree with you, that Brexit was mostly about imigration (with a strong xenophobic undertone may I say), the UK actually always wanted the common market only and were and still are dreaming about being oh so powerful in the globalized world to go their own way. Let's see if that is the case after Brexit and probably after Scotland and NI have left the UK.
I find it remarkable that the "democracy - defenders" (the vote was like that any doubting this in any kind is undemocratic) as first reaction plan to punish NI and Scotland with loans that have been granted by the UK incase that they are leaving. Isn't that punishing, the perceived punishing that you are receiving by the EU for Brexit? (and I've said perceived).
More and more concessions where angrying the other EU partners and it was a huge concern that others would follow the UK with the blackmailing.
But like I say, the UK never really wanted the EU, so the mess that we are in is unfortunate, but you can't hardly blame the EU for not budging with their 4 pillars just to let Cameron shine as the Knight who had the EU again on their knees.
It was Cameron's decision to hold that referendum and he's gotten elected by that promise. It's not the EUs fault, that he had unrealistic expectations from the dealings with the EU.
Same like Trump: He promise dto build the wall and got elected by it. You can't put the blame on Mexico now because Trump is not getting his way.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Over its own boarder, the EU dictates the terms. Thanks Higgins
You're making the Leave argument very well {[]