More Fake News , it was 4% that's 100% more than your version.
Unlike you, I contend that lies were told by BOTH sides.
We have elections all the time and as I said in my first post ALL
Politicians lie ( in your world only Brexit politicians lie) and
WE the public know they lie. It's not my fault the Brexit Politicians
Told better lies than the remainers ) which is hard to believe
With Tony Blair on the remain team .
Still I don't know why all the excitement, Brexit is Dead, it has ceased
To Be ! It is Dead. The UK is not leaving ! We too will have speed
Limiters in 2022.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
They also lied by saying that they will execute the hard Brexit.
Why? Because he knows, that he can't do better because leaving with no deal would lead to disaster and he does not want to be responsible for that!
Turns out now, that most of the "scaremongering" was absolutely correct, and that's exactly the reason why they refuse to throw the country over the edge. Some stubborn ones - including yourself, will never accept it and I am totally fine with it.
But your way of thinking and interpretation of the Brexit vote has no majority and you certainly have to accept that.
The first sentence from you I fully agree with - they have lied, but that has been the result of a remain-centric Parliament sadly.
Sentence 2 - why exactly is us leaving with no deal a disaster? I'm genuinely curious as to your reasoning here.
Sentence 3 - what of the remain scaremongering is correct? This must have by-passed me tbh. As an example, our then Chancellor, George Osborne, said a vote to leave would “represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy” that would push the economy into a recession, lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000, and see businesses and households reduce spending. If anything, employment is now at a high (since 1975 levels) & growth projections have been adjusted upwards from the pre-referendum doom & gloom believed.
Sentence 4 - I'm not entirely sure what you are meaning here? Would appreciate clarification please.
Sentence 2 - why exactly is us leaving with no deal a disaster? I'm genuinely curious as to your reasoning here.
Why don't you ask Johnson why he doesn't want to take over?
Predictions for the future are always difficult, consensus among all experts (and among almost everybody outside of the UK) is that it will send shockwaves thru entire Europe with the UK will be most affected.
You must have lived under a rock for the last 3 years, if you are seriously asking that question...
Sentence 3 - what of the remain scaremongering is correct? This must have by-passed me tbh. As an example, our then Chancellor, George Osborne, said a vote to leave would “represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy” that would push the economy into a recession, lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000, and see businesses and households reduce spending. If anything, employment is now at a high (since 1975 levels) & growth projections have been adjusted upwards from the pre-referendum doom & gloom believed.
How has your currency developed against the Euro?
How have the investments from foreign countries developed in the last 2 years?
How many carmakers have closed their factories?
I will frankly admit that not all scenarios became true - but the signs are there.
Sentence 4 - I'm not entirely sure what you are meaning here? Would appreciate clarification please.
You want a hard Brexit with no deal.
This position has no majority - not in the parliament and not 100% of the Brexit voters put their vote for a Hard Brexit.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Brexit with no deal will no doubt be difficult, the most obvious example is that everything will have to go through customs, creating long queues and lots of waiting.
As has been mentioned elsewhere here - Brexit is essentially dead now anyway ... the next UK elections we have could prove to be very interesting indeed
Are there any parties (besides UKIP, I guess) that are officially remain or stay, but also have a leadership and supprters who are in agreement on Brexit? The Tories and Labour seem to be split in the middle.
Lib dems, never wanted to leave, and still don't. Although
They are a tiny party, and even with their strong pro EU
Campaigning, haven't received many votes.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
According to Sky News Theresa May is willing to resign if it means her deal gets a majority in the House of Commons. She is supposed to have given the offer to Tory MP's.
According to Sky News Theresa May is willing to resign if it means her deal gets a majority in the House of Commons. She is supposed to have given the offer to Tory MP's.
The good old “if you don’t back my rubbish, then you’ll have to put up with me for even longer” routine ... what joy!
Meanwhile in the middle of this there are millions of people who made their votes in good faith. They were promised that their votes counted and that what they decided would be done.
It makes me angry to see people come up with excuses to not honour these votes. You all should be very careful what you wish for if you want to overturn this referendum or any political vote because you do not like it because you debase other peoples vote and in the long term you also debase your own vote.
You carry on like this and you will all have votes that do not count and your voice will be taken away all together. This is my warning to you.
If you agree or disagree with this Brexit vote it is vital that the wishes of the people (and yes they were the majority) is carried out.
Right now I am beginning to see similarities to events that I never thought it would be possible to see in any European country, let alone the United Kingdom.
A political project and its supporters who have been voted against ignoring the people who voted against it? Your next step is totalitarianism.
To gather the votes, promises have been made that were out of utopia.
Right after the vote, the biggest liars ran away and left the mess to be cleaned up by others who simply don‘t want to put the country into trouble.
And right at the beginning, the Referendum was not carefully worded.
So until today, the discussion is, if pro Brexit means leaving the EU with or without a deal ( both could be called an Exit right out of the EU).
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
-{ agreed, Joshua. I know many will laugh but we lose our rights in
Drops. Little by little. Up until this vote it was simple. Who ever
Got the most votes wins. Now it seems it's not that simple
Anymore
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
It is no less dramatic and please I ask that you do not confuse my poor English for stupidity.
I am very aware of that this is not a simple issue.
I can say this as a observer with no feeling on Brexit who was in England at the time of the referendum. People were lied to on both sides. Perhaps only the lies made by the people wanting to leave the EU count?
At the very heart of this is trust and that is what I think makes people in the UK more angry than anything, because they were asked to vote and they were promised that the vote counted and what they said would be done. Now only the situation is that people in power are trying to obstruct or stop this process.
Do peoples vote count or do they not count? This is a simple question which is more important than all the arguments here and everywhere else. If you agree that they do count then you must accept the peoples decision. If peoples votes do not count then.................
You all have the privilege of voting. You all take it too much for granted. It is your right of course but it is a right that has to be protected. That means not giving support to any one in power or otherwise who wishes to ignore the people. I think you cannot see how easily your rights can be taken away from you and in many respects some of you are helping to make that a reality.
As someone who has served in prison as a result of voting your beliefs, you have a moral high ground that none of us here can claim. Compared to you, most (perhaps all) of us are academic dilettantes. I know I certainly am, and you have my utmost respect for all you have been through -- and seemingly overcome.
But while your general premise is true, I must argue that there is more going on here than simply ignoring voters' wishes.
Suppose I put to you a poorly thought-through yes/no question. Suppose also that the implications of your answer, while seemingly simple, are in fact very complicated -- so much so that no one really knows what they are at the time the question is posed. Finally, suppose (for argument's sake) that proponents of both "yes" and "no" bombard you with hyperbole that presents the other side as the road to ruin.
With all this, you do your best to understand what you're voting for (even if, perhaps, you aren't really sure) and you cast your vote.
Some time later, it becomes apparent that implementing the winning position is in fact far more difficult than anyone let on.
Have I failed you? Hell yes, but not because I can't/won't implement the winning position -- but rather because I posed a poor question and a false choice to you in the first place. You're right that the British voters are getting screwed, but not only for the reasons you say -- they really got screwed three years ago.
Personally, I don't really care if Brexit happens or not. I don't live in Europe, and I don't claim to be as knowledgeable on the real implications as others on this board are. Plus, there's enough crap going on here in the US to keep my stress-meter on high for a while. My point is simply that the original vote was a complete abdication of duty by the UK's elected officials, who as a collective are now faced with no good options, a situation entirely of their own making.
PS -- Welcome back. You were sorely missed while you were away.
And now let the usual „ You are undemocratic“ „everybody was well-informed and knew exactly what they have been voting for“ moaning fall on your head from the Brexit Evangelists )
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I fear many (I don't pretend to know how many) of the people who voted leave wanted Britain to get back full control of their own laws, borders and immigration. At the same time they expected open borders for themselves and the wares they and British trade and industry wants and needs, but not paying the EU for the privilege.
The EU can't and won't give them this. These terms will be picking most of the advantages and saying no to many of the most important burdens or duties in the EU. Saying yes to this would be an open invitation for other member countries to leave.
Theresa May has tried (I believe) to find a compromise between those expectations and the reality of EU positions. When she can't possibly meet the hopes and expectations of many voters, is she betraying them? is it undemocratic to tell the voters that this is the best you can get? This is of course an over-simplification, but I suspect parts of the elecorate simply had unrealistic expectations.
As someone who has served in prison as a result of voting your beliefs, you have a moral high ground that none of us here can claim. Compared to you, most (perhaps all) of us are academic dilettantes. I know I certainly am, and you have my utmost respect for all you have been through -- and seemingly overcome.
But while your general premise is true, I must argue that there is more going on here than simply ignoring voters' wishes.
Suppose I put to you a poorly thought-through yes/no question. Suppose also that the implications of your answer, while seemingly simple, are in fact very complicated -- so much so that no one really knows what they are at the time the question is posed. Finally, suppose (for argument's sake) that proponents of both "yes" and "no" bombard you with hyperbole that presents the other side as the road to ruin.
With all this, you do your best to understand what you're voting for (even if, perhaps, you aren't really sure) and you cast your vote.
Some time later, it becomes apparent that implementing the winning position is in fact far more difficult than anyone let on.
Have I failed you? Hell yes, but not because I can't/won't implement the winning position -- but rather because I posed a poor question and a false choice to you in the first place. You're right that the British voters are getting screwed, but not only for the reasons you say -- they really got screwed three years ago.
Personally, I don't really care if Brexit happens or not. I don't live in Europe, and I don't claim to be as knowledgeable on the real implications as others on this board are. Plus, there's enough crap going on here in the US to keep my stress-meter on high for a while. My point is simply that the original vote was a complete abdication of duty by the UK's elected officials, who as a collective are now faced with no good options, a situation entirely of their own making.
PS -- Welcome back. You were sorely missed while you were away.
Thank you, but I do not claim to have moral high ground, I just perhaps have experience of how people who votes do not count and how quickly theyre rights to vote or have a voice can be taken by those who do not agree. Once this happens then any point of view by the public can be ignored. I see this slowly happening in front of my eyes. You must understand that these politicians are your servants and not your masters. They can not be allowed to over turn your vote because they do not agree with it.
I fully understand your position, but I do not agree. I disagree with you that the referendum choice was worded poorly. I think it was clear, to leave or to remain. I think many people see that for what the question is and voted because of that. To suggest other wise is to suggest that all voters who voted to leave the EU are simply stupid. I personally have more faith in the British people than many politicians and other people have. I do not regard them as ignorant or stupid or naeve or racist. They knew what they voted for and that was to leave. The only people who have complicated things after are those who did not want this result.
Again I say it goes back to trust. If the people can not trust the promises of the politicians when these politicians have given their word then the country is in a serious state, a state which is far more serious than any economics. When they can see that it appears only that the vote of the minority counts and their votes do not count it is also very dangerous.
This issue is far bigger than Brexit itself. It is do peoples vote count or are they worthless? If they are shown to be worthless and their wishes over turned by people who don’t agree then that is the end of the British democratic process.
It angers me that people here can be so dimissive of the British voters.
I have copied the article I linked to because I think no body even bothered to read it.
Joolz Gale
24 March 2019
9:00 AM
What makes me chuckle about the Brexiteers is how little they understand the German mindset. Here in Germany, the European Union is a religion. It is ingrained so heavily in the DNA of nearly every German citizen that any reasoned argument to counter its domination, or challenge its direction, is swiftly dismissed. The integrity of the EU – its unity, identity, money and rules – is central to German identity. That’s why they’ve maintained such a tough stance over Brexit.
The Germans have been very good to me as a musician in Berlin over the past decade. But on Brexit, I am reminded that I am still deeply British. In recent weeks I have had a series of informal meetings and discussions with parliamentarians and officials on all political sides in Berlin. From those conversations, what’s clear is that the Germans think the British people want to remain in the EU but they just do not realise it yet. This explains the messy negotiations, the chaos of which (the Germans hope) will persuade the UK to change its mind. There is zero respect for the British position right now (although Theresa May’s embarrassing antics are not exactly helping) and zero understanding of why Brits might vote to leave.
But we have to see where this approach comes from. First, the culture of discourse and debate in Germany is not like in the UK (which is why people here view the mess of the House of Commons with contempt rather than with admiration for a healthy democracy). Germans fear that the forceful expression of opinion can be deemed dangerously persuasive, especially when charismatic rhetoric can so easily manipulate the emotions of listeners. Second, nationalism is a dirty and often misunderstood word (thanks to National Socialism). Generations of school children have been brainwashed into thinking that the EU project is integral to German national identity, thankful for the role Europe has played in uniting a new and prosperous Germany. Putting the two together, one begins to understand that the EU project has replaced national love.
I call this a religion because there is no tolerance for an alternative political vision. The groupthink mentality of liberal Germany means that EU loyalty is unquestioned. The rise of extremist parties (such as the AfD) is evidence of the Germans’ reluctance to debate this.
Indeed, this EU piety has made Germans so blind to the causes of Brexit that they now risk the whole EU project falling apart.
No one that I’ve met here actually wants to know why Brexit happened. They prefer to think of Brexiteers as crazy, delusional, far-right radicals who want to go back to the old days of Empire (and believe me, the Empire is brought up – no joke – by every single German I speak to about Brexit), or simply as idiots believing the lies of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage (the two are usually mentioned in the same sentence, with no awareness from the utterer that the two men ran different campaigns). There is no sense here of humility or responsibility for what has happened, nor an idea of how sophisticated the motivations behind Brexit are.
Everyday I hear how Brexit can only be a mess. Yet my Berliner friends forget that 40 years of laws and regulations will always be difficult to break free from – it is precisely this mess that proves just how deeply ingrained the EU is in nearly everything Brits do. My friends also cannot understand how, to properly represent voters, there might be a limit to the institutional layers placed between the voters and those in power, of which the EU adds many. This is because the idea of nationhood and federalism in Germany is – and has been ever since WW2 – wholly different to that of the seafaring British.
Today, it is easy to understand what the EU does for Germany, especially economically. In their Nietzschean nature, the Germans are fiercely competitive. It’s something I like about them very much. When it comes to global politics, the EU allows Germany to call the shots while masking the country’s true power. Before Brexit, the major powers seemed balanced. By leaving the EU, Britain exposes German dominance whilst challenging the status quo. It is this challenge that makes most Germans I know vindictive about Brexit: to the detriment of friendship, they would prefer any future deal to be a deterrent to other nations that might think of leaving their very convenient club.
Of course, my dear Germans friends are not the only ones that lack patience for alternative ideas. Vast swathes of the liberal ruling EU elite suffer from it, hence their general disconnect with the voters. However, it’s important to understand that anyone who thinks religiously about something will probably not be able to contemplate alternative views. That’s because religion is faith and faith is unreasoned, so rational argument is never enough. We Brits need to start understanding this German-European mind-set. Perhaps we will then be better at negotiating with them.
I know some people sneer at my opinions and say I am over dramatic because they do not agree. That is their choice of course but I live in the UK where I am free to give an opinion.
I am not arguing with any one. If you accept what I say is up to you, just as you are free to disagree.
I simply believe that votes are priced beyond gold and that to ignore or go against a free vote of people is dispicable.
I hope none of you live to regret that you fought so hard to take away a decision from the British people. One day I think you might just wake up in a place where your own votes do not count any more because of the precident you have set that the minority should rule over the majority.
Go right or left?
Lets go left.
But there is a wall at the end of road.
I am sure that there is a way around that wall later.
Ok, let‘s drive that way
Oh, the wall comes close and there is no way around the wall.
Let‘s stop and turn around
No, we have both agreed, that we take that path and I insist that we drive thru that wall now.
My dear friend Higgins, I think that you are not being shown in your best light in many of your posts here. I say this as your friend. You can not win arguments by simply just arguing for the sake of arguing.
You have your opinions and it is clear that you have very great trouble some times in listening to other opinions. This does your own argument no good.
I feel I can say this as your friend.
Thank you.
I have said what I came to this posts to say and can say no more.
It goes both ways.
I can‘t see much listening to my arguments from the fellow Brexiteers - and rest assured that I am reading everything and am aware of the arguments of the Brexiteers.
What you say is incorrect and not judging me right.
And what you are asking of others, also applies to you. Please respect that people have a different opinion than you without being undemocratic or want to path the way to dictatorship.
Still love you in a strict heterosexual way
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I think the vote going on in the House of Commons right now is very interesting. They are voteing to show their support or rejections of eight different models for the UK's relationships with the EU ranging from a Brexit without a deal on one extreme and remain on the other end of the spectrum. Frankly this should have been done long ago. Just saying one wants to leave is really just saying what they don't want, not what they want. Now the House are finally saying what they want.
This back-and-forth encapsulates the shortcomings of an online forum as a place to have real debate, which is why I tread here so infrequently.
Joshua, you and I are not entirely in synch on this topic, but I have a feeling we're more aligned than either of us may think. We won't really understand fully each other unless we're in the same room (would be nice) but please know that I do not for one second ascribe willful ignorance, naivete or racism to the British public at large. Sure, there is some, just as there is everywhere, but it's the exception, as with most societies. I think that many have been made victims of deep cynicism and dereliction of duty on the part of those they elected to represent them, and my view on that has nothing to do with how they voted or what the outcome was. It's a shitty situation all around.
Having waded into this Category 5 storm, I shall now retreat to the kiddie pool that is the "James Bond Quote Conversation" thread.
Comments
So, winning a Referndum by 2% while massively cheating on funding, blatant lies and disinformation is fair by your standards?
Thank god, I have a different take on that.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Unlike you, I contend that lies were told by BOTH sides.
We have elections all the time and as I said in my first post ALL
Politicians lie ( in your world only Brexit politicians lie) and
WE the public know they lie. It's not my fault the Brexit Politicians
Told better lies than the remainers
With Tony Blair on the remain team .
Still I don't know why all the excitement, Brexit is Dead, it has ceased
To Be ! It is Dead. The UK is not leaving ! We too will have speed
Limiters in 2022.
This is a very informative documentary.
The first sentence from you I fully agree with - they have lied, but that has been the result of a remain-centric Parliament sadly.
Sentence 2 - why exactly is us leaving with no deal a disaster? I'm genuinely curious as to your reasoning here.
Sentence 3 - what of the remain scaremongering is correct? This must have by-passed me tbh. As an example, our then Chancellor, George Osborne, said a vote to leave would “represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy” that would push the economy into a recession, lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000, and see businesses and households reduce spending. If anything, employment is now at a high (since 1975 levels) & growth projections have been adjusted upwards from the pre-referendum doom & gloom believed.
Sentence 4 - I'm not entirely sure what you are meaning here? Would appreciate clarification please.
Predictions for the future are always difficult, consensus among all experts (and among almost everybody outside of the UK) is that it will send shockwaves thru entire Europe with the UK will be most affected.
You must have lived under a rock for the last 3 years, if you are seriously asking that question...
How has your currency developed against the Euro?
How have the investments from foreign countries developed in the last 2 years?
How many carmakers have closed their factories?
I will frankly admit that not all scenarios became true - but the signs are there.
You want a hard Brexit with no deal.
This position has no majority - not in the parliament and not 100% of the Brexit voters put their vote for a Hard Brexit.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
They are a tiny party, and even with their strong pro EU
Campaigning, haven't received many votes.
If you do not ask specific questions, I cannot be responsible for your misinterpretation of the answers.
B-)
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The good old “if you don’t back my rubbish, then you’ll have to put up with me for even longer” routine ... what joy!
It makes me angry to see people come up with excuses to not honour these votes. You all should be very careful what you wish for if you want to overturn this referendum or any political vote because you do not like it because you debase other peoples vote and in the long term you also debase your own vote.
You carry on like this and you will all have votes that do not count and your voice will be taken away all together. This is my warning to you.
If you agree or disagree with this Brexit vote it is vital that the wishes of the people (and yes they were the majority) is carried out.
Right now I am beginning to see similarities to events that I never thought it would be possible to see in any European country, let alone the United Kingdom.
A political project and its supporters who have been voted against ignoring the people who voted against it? Your next step is totalitarianism.
To gather the votes, promises have been made that were out of utopia.
Right after the vote, the biggest liars ran away and left the mess to be cleaned up by others who simply don‘t want to put the country into trouble.
And right at the beginning, the Referendum was not carefully worded.
So until today, the discussion is, if pro Brexit means leaving the EU with or without a deal ( both could be called an Exit right out of the EU).
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Drops. Little by little. Up until this vote it was simple. Who ever
Got the most votes wins. Now it seems it's not that simple
Anymore
I am very aware of that this is not a simple issue.
I can say this as a observer with no feeling on Brexit who was in England at the time of the referendum. People were lied to on both sides. Perhaps only the lies made by the people wanting to leave the EU count?
At the very heart of this is trust and that is what I think makes people in the UK more angry than anything, because they were asked to vote and they were promised that the vote counted and what they said would be done. Now only the situation is that people in power are trying to obstruct or stop this process.
Do peoples vote count or do they not count? This is a simple question which is more important than all the arguments here and everywhere else. If you agree that they do count then you must accept the peoples decision. If peoples votes do not count then.................
You all have the privilege of voting. You all take it too much for granted. It is your right of course but it is a right that has to be protected. That means not giving support to any one in power or otherwise who wishes to ignore the people. I think you cannot see how easily your rights can be taken away from you and in many respects some of you are helping to make that a reality.
As someone who has served in prison as a result of voting your beliefs, you have a moral high ground that none of us here can claim. Compared to you, most (perhaps all) of us are academic dilettantes. I know I certainly am, and you have my utmost respect for all you have been through -- and seemingly overcome.
But while your general premise is true, I must argue that there is more going on here than simply ignoring voters' wishes.
Suppose I put to you a poorly thought-through yes/no question. Suppose also that the implications of your answer, while seemingly simple, are in fact very complicated -- so much so that no one really knows what they are at the time the question is posed. Finally, suppose (for argument's sake) that proponents of both "yes" and "no" bombard you with hyperbole that presents the other side as the road to ruin.
With all this, you do your best to understand what you're voting for (even if, perhaps, you aren't really sure) and you cast your vote.
Some time later, it becomes apparent that implementing the winning position is in fact far more difficult than anyone let on.
Have I failed you? Hell yes, but not because I can't/won't implement the winning position -- but rather because I posed a poor question and a false choice to you in the first place. You're right that the British voters are getting screwed, but not only for the reasons you say -- they really got screwed three years ago.
Personally, I don't really care if Brexit happens or not. I don't live in Europe, and I don't claim to be as knowledgeable on the real implications as others on this board are. Plus, there's enough crap going on here in the US to keep my stress-meter on high for a while. My point is simply that the original vote was a complete abdication of duty by the UK's elected officials, who as a collective are now faced with no good options, a situation entirely of their own making.
PS -- Welcome back. You were sorely missed while you were away.
And now let the usual „ You are undemocratic“ „everybody was well-informed and knew exactly what they have been voting for“ moaning fall on your head from the Brexit Evangelists
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The EU can't and won't give them this. These terms will be picking most of the advantages and saying no to many of the most important burdens or duties in the EU. Saying yes to this would be an open invitation for other member countries to leave.
Theresa May has tried (I believe) to find a compromise between those expectations and the reality of EU positions. When she can't possibly meet the hopes and expectations of many voters, is she betraying them? is it undemocratic to tell the voters that this is the best you can get? This is of course an over-simplification, but I suspect parts of the elecorate simply had unrealistic expectations.
Thank you, but I do not claim to have moral high ground, I just perhaps have experience of how people who votes do not count and how quickly theyre rights to vote or have a voice can be taken by those who do not agree. Once this happens then any point of view by the public can be ignored. I see this slowly happening in front of my eyes. You must understand that these politicians are your servants and not your masters. They can not be allowed to over turn your vote because they do not agree with it.
I fully understand your position, but I do not agree. I disagree with you that the referendum choice was worded poorly. I think it was clear, to leave or to remain. I think many people see that for what the question is and voted because of that. To suggest other wise is to suggest that all voters who voted to leave the EU are simply stupid. I personally have more faith in the British people than many politicians and other people have. I do not regard them as ignorant or stupid or naeve or racist. They knew what they voted for and that was to leave. The only people who have complicated things after are those who did not want this result.
Again I say it goes back to trust. If the people can not trust the promises of the politicians when these politicians have given their word then the country is in a serious state, a state which is far more serious than any economics. When they can see that it appears only that the vote of the minority counts and their votes do not count it is also very dangerous.
This issue is far bigger than Brexit itself. It is do peoples vote count or are they worthless? If they are shown to be worthless and their wishes over turned by people who don’t agree then that is the end of the British democratic process.
It angers me that people here can be so dimissive of the British voters.
Joolz Gale
24 March 2019
9:00 AM
What makes me chuckle about the Brexiteers is how little they understand the German mindset. Here in Germany, the European Union is a religion. It is ingrained so heavily in the DNA of nearly every German citizen that any reasoned argument to counter its domination, or challenge its direction, is swiftly dismissed. The integrity of the EU – its unity, identity, money and rules – is central to German identity. That’s why they’ve maintained such a tough stance over Brexit.
The Germans have been very good to me as a musician in Berlin over the past decade. But on Brexit, I am reminded that I am still deeply British. In recent weeks I have had a series of informal meetings and discussions with parliamentarians and officials on all political sides in Berlin. From those conversations, what’s clear is that the Germans think the British people want to remain in the EU but they just do not realise it yet. This explains the messy negotiations, the chaos of which (the Germans hope) will persuade the UK to change its mind. There is zero respect for the British position right now (although Theresa May’s embarrassing antics are not exactly helping) and zero understanding of why Brits might vote to leave.
But we have to see where this approach comes from. First, the culture of discourse and debate in Germany is not like in the UK (which is why people here view the mess of the House of Commons with contempt rather than with admiration for a healthy democracy). Germans fear that the forceful expression of opinion can be deemed dangerously persuasive, especially when charismatic rhetoric can so easily manipulate the emotions of listeners. Second, nationalism is a dirty and often misunderstood word (thanks to National Socialism). Generations of school children have been brainwashed into thinking that the EU project is integral to German national identity, thankful for the role Europe has played in uniting a new and prosperous Germany. Putting the two together, one begins to understand that the EU project has replaced national love.
I call this a religion because there is no tolerance for an alternative political vision. The groupthink mentality of liberal Germany means that EU loyalty is unquestioned. The rise of extremist parties (such as the AfD) is evidence of the Germans’ reluctance to debate this.
Indeed, this EU piety has made Germans so blind to the causes of Brexit that they now risk the whole EU project falling apart.
No one that I’ve met here actually wants to know why Brexit happened. They prefer to think of Brexiteers as crazy, delusional, far-right radicals who want to go back to the old days of Empire (and believe me, the Empire is brought up – no joke – by every single German I speak to about Brexit), or simply as idiots believing the lies of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage (the two are usually mentioned in the same sentence, with no awareness from the utterer that the two men ran different campaigns). There is no sense here of humility or responsibility for what has happened, nor an idea of how sophisticated the motivations behind Brexit are.
Everyday I hear how Brexit can only be a mess. Yet my Berliner friends forget that 40 years of laws and regulations will always be difficult to break free from – it is precisely this mess that proves just how deeply ingrained the EU is in nearly everything Brits do. My friends also cannot understand how, to properly represent voters, there might be a limit to the institutional layers placed between the voters and those in power, of which the EU adds many. This is because the idea of nationhood and federalism in Germany is – and has been ever since WW2 – wholly different to that of the seafaring British.
Today, it is easy to understand what the EU does for Germany, especially economically. In their Nietzschean nature, the Germans are fiercely competitive. It’s something I like about them very much. When it comes to global politics, the EU allows Germany to call the shots while masking the country’s true power. Before Brexit, the major powers seemed balanced. By leaving the EU, Britain exposes German dominance whilst challenging the status quo. It is this challenge that makes most Germans I know vindictive about Brexit: to the detriment of friendship, they would prefer any future deal to be a deterrent to other nations that might think of leaving their very convenient club.
Of course, my dear Germans friends are not the only ones that lack patience for alternative ideas. Vast swathes of the liberal ruling EU elite suffer from it, hence their general disconnect with the voters. However, it’s important to understand that anyone who thinks religiously about something will probably not be able to contemplate alternative views. That’s because religion is faith and faith is unreasoned, so rational argument is never enough. We Brits need to start understanding this German-European mind-set. Perhaps we will then be better at negotiating with them.
Go right or left?
Lets go left.
But there is a wall at the end of road.
I am sure that there is a way around that wall later.
Ok, let‘s drive that way
Oh, the wall comes close and there is no way around the wall.
Let‘s stop and turn around
No, we have both agreed, that we take that path and I insist that we drive thru that wall now.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I am not arguing with any one. If you accept what I say is up to you, just as you are free to disagree.
I simply believe that votes are priced beyond gold and that to ignore or go against a free vote of people is dispicable.
I hope none of you live to regret that you fought so hard to take away a decision from the British people. One day I think you might just wake up in a place where your own votes do not count any more because of the precident you have set that the minority should rule over the majority.
I thank you all.
My dear friend Higgins, I think that you are not being shown in your best light in many of your posts here. I say this as your friend. You can not win arguments by simply just arguing for the sake of arguing.
You have your opinions and it is clear that you have very great trouble some times in listening to other opinions. This does your own argument no good.
I feel I can say this as your friend.
Thank you.
I have said what I came to this posts to say and can say no more.
It goes both ways.
I can‘t see much listening to my arguments from the fellow Brexiteers - and rest assured that I am reading everything and am aware of the arguments of the Brexiteers.
What you say is incorrect and not judging me right.
And what you are asking of others, also applies to you. Please respect that people have a different opinion than you without being undemocratic or want to path the way to dictatorship.
Still love you in a strict heterosexual way
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Joshua, you and I are not entirely in synch on this topic, but I have a feeling we're more aligned than either of us may think. We won't really understand fully each other unless we're in the same room (would be nice) but please know that I do not for one second ascribe willful ignorance, naivete or racism to the British public at large. Sure, there is some, just as there is everywhere, but it's the exception, as with most societies. I think that many have been made victims of deep cynicism and dereliction of duty on the part of those they elected to represent them, and my view on that has nothing to do with how they voted or what the outcome was. It's a shitty situation all around.
Having waded into this Category 5 storm, I shall now retreat to the kiddie pool that is the "James Bond Quote Conversation" thread.