What is undemocratic of doing what 52% of your population
Want ?
Not to do it is Undemocratic !
Just for the argument's sake, I'd say that the way the Brexit camp conducted the opinionbuilding, has nothing remotely to do with democracy. And everything else was a result of that.
I's purely Putin's agenda: Polarizing people by lies, manipulation, fear and anger (and xenophobia may I say - I know that this is polarizing) and then "innocently" claiming "I've gotten the democratic majority"
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
My Main question is .
Why is one country's desire to leave the EU
Going to bring down the whole of western
Civilisation?
Is the EU that fragile an institution ?
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
It's not just Putin's agenda what's heppening, even though he has a hidden hand in what 's happening. It's about many politicians not taking care of the working class and middle class, worries about immigration (not all of it is racism, regardless of what the Swedes say), the physical and political distance to Brussels and many other issues.
I think many things went wrong after the Brexit vote. The Brexit election was decided by a prime minister whio didn't want a Brexit and didn't believe there would be one, so he didn't plan for one. Then everyone forgot the people had voted against remaining in the EU, but no one really knew or cared to check what they wanted instead. I highly doubt many of the voters even knew what they wanted instead of an EU membership. Is it any wonder the negotiations with the EU is a mess?
My Main question is .
Why is one country's desire to leave the EU
Going to bring down the whole of western
Civilisation?
Is the EU that fragile an institution ?
May I point out, that remotely replying to your question, I am doing much more than you with your usual approach.
Truth is, the EU is prepared to let the UK go, but the UK can't get their act together how they want to leave.
The EU has always respected the Referendum outcome but the EU has certain rules and the parting process is much more difficult then joining.
The analogy is well known:
It's a bit like putting an opened egg back into the shell.
And you know the issues at the irish border, if Ireland is split of any kind, this will be leading to further unrest for sure.
And during the negotiation process, it became clearer, that the UK were still keen keeping the common market but get rid of everything else.
That can't be. The EU cost a lot of money, if you want to participate - you have to pay and stick with the rules. Should not be difficult to understand.
But the UK negotiation team felt so superior that they would be able to play out the EU countries against each other and lever a deal with all benefits and no dues - hoping that the German carmakers will force their government to budge.
That did not work!
But I guess that you know all this already, so why ask?
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
What is undemocratic of doing what 52% of your population
Want ?
Not to do it is Undemocratic !
Just for the argument's sake, I'd say that the way the Brexit camp conducted the opinionbuilding, has nothing remotely to do with democracy. And everything else was a result of that.
I's purely Putin's agenda: Polarizing people by lies, manipulation, fear and anger (and xenophobia may I say - I know that this is polarizing) and then "innocently" claiming "I've gotten the democratic majority"
I'm sorry, but that is absolute rubbish!
The remain campaign here spent £9M on a leaflet through each & every front door, yet this gets conveniently forgotten by every EU / remain supporter.
The lies & manipulation were prevalent on BOTH sides of the campaign - please don't try & make this solely a leave campaign attribute. We have been subjected here to constant pro-EU media (BBC / Sky news to name but 2) in the days before the referendum & certainly post it ... nothing to do with their part-funding whatsoever of course
The simple fact is that the then leader of the country, David Cameron, offered a referendum to the public in the thinking that there was very little hope of the public voting to leave the EU. The result caused a huge surprise to all in power & we are still facing the fall-out of it with their absolute sh*t show of sorting it out.
It is worth remembering that 406 constituencies voted to leave, 242 to remain.
148 Labour constituencies voted to leave, 84 to remain.
247 Conservative constituencies voted to leave, 80 to remain.
9 "Regions" voted to leave, 3 voted to remain.
The real problem lies in the statistic that 160 MP's voted to leave, but 486 voted to remain. They are self-serving, not serving their constituencies.
In the UK Brexit has shown the gap between the
Political class and the voting class.
52% of the public voted to leave while the commons
Is around 80% remainers.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
The parliament elections have been AFTER the referendum, so I could turn your argument around and say:
2016, there where 52% Brexiteers and 2017, that number has fallen to 20%.
But that's not true.
I've told you this several times, politics is not as easy like you want to imply.
Yes, the vote was 52% to leave the EU. But the (2017 - so AFTER the referendum) elected mps are trying to find a way to leaving the EU without driving the UK into disaster (which the vast majority of experts predict to happen with a Hard Brexit - feel free to be more expert than them).
If that disaster after Brexit would or will become reality, you will be the first one to point out how incompetent your own polititicans are, or how evil the EU is not allowing the UK being in the common market or blame them otherwise.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The remain campaign here spent £9M on a leaflet through each & every front door, yet this gets conveniently forgotten by every EU / remain supporter.
Man, that sounds evil!! ) ) )
I fail to comprehend what should be wrong about that?
Was there any xenophobia being driven, or lies about the NHS or anything?
Maybe you want to educate yourself about the targetted social media campaining that Brexit did with the help of Cambridge analytica and Putin by targetting people and feed them with plain lies, pure hate and fear and xenophobia!
The lies & manipulation were prevalent on BOTH sides of the campaign - please don't try & make this solely a leave campaign attribute. We have been subjected here to constant pro-EU media (BBC / Sky news to name but 2) in the days before the referendum & certainly post it ... nothing to do with their part-funding whatsoever of course
So far, I have to see any of these perceived lies from the remainers. For sure many of the predictions have been done for the future and incase of a Hard Brexit. As that is all in the future, how can these be lies?
The lies from the Brexiteers have been already exposed and the main actors have left the ship by continuing their destructive apporach.
If there was a competition in terms of lies, I'd say that the Brexiteers would have won by some miles.
But the Brexiteer's reflex "but Remain also lied" is hilarious. As if it makes it any better. Childish.
The main difference is, that Brexit was heavily supported by Murdoch and Putin and that you are trying to defend it or find it ok just shows how radical your point of view is.
Just be happy to still have the BBC and other main media, otherwise, you'd be stuck with Murdoch and Russia today :v
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
It is worth remembering that 406 constituencies voted to leave, 242 to remain.
148 Labour constituencies voted to leave, 84 to remain.
247 Conservative constituencies voted to leave, 80 to remain.
9 "Regions" voted to leave, 3 voted to remain.
The real problem lies in the statistic that 160 MP's voted to leave, but 486 voted to remain. They are self-serving, not serving their constituencies.
No, the problem is, that politics and leading a country is not that easy!
It's not that easy like all the populists imply!
The parliament elections were AFTER the referendum.
And the differences are easily explained by the fact, that the majority of the Tory Brexiteers are not willing or are unable to stick with their lies during the Brexit campaignings and deliver a Hard Brexit.
Because they follow the experts and know, how terrible the outcome is.
I find it remarkable that you don't mention or ignore this point - the possible fallout of a Hard Brexit.
But you insist that the MPs are driving the country into the wall with a Hard Brexit just because you hate the EU.
And I find it remarkable, that you aggressively demand now Labour to help the Brexiteers for a majority for a Hard Brexit - just because the party that you support is unable to decide, what they WANT.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Higgins, yes the election was after the referendum but
They were voted in on " respecting and implementing " the
Will of the people, but so far have consistently blocked
Brexit. So more Remain lies.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Perhaps I am reading the wrong news, but as far as I see, the Hard Brexiteers have so far blocked a Brexit in the parliament because they can't agree with the proposed deal?.
And what was again "The will of the people"?
And as they all lie, why do you believe them that they would "respect and implement" the will of people.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Once again rather insulting 8-) these are Facts ! They stood for
Election saying they would enact the will of the people, they have
Done the opposite, some have actually left their original parties, to
Follow their own agenda.
The speaker of the house campaigned for remain
I follow politics very closely and I'm not on facebook, your
Typical condescending, superior tone, that all who voted to
leave are Stupid is standard language of the remain side.
I knew what I voted for to leave the EU, lock, stock and barrel !
The sooner we just get on with a no deal Brexit the better. :x
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
For the Referendum, you say, that the vote was based on thorough research, comprehensive discussions and an educated decision.
So, in summary, the voters have not been misled.
At the same time, you say quite the contrary about the parliament elections by saying that the voters have been cheated by the elected mps.
So, voters have been misled.
Isn't that a bit contradictory?
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
If you chose not to understand, that's your choice
Can't wait for the German voter to pick up the slack
Of around 40 billion euro after we leave. ) the EU
Are predicting 0% growth.... yes, Sounds like a great
Success )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Higgins ... I don’t know you at all, but your apparent arrogance (intended or not), naivety & propensity for such a one-eyed blinkered approach to this matter has been enlightening to say the least.
On a personal level, I visit this site as a welcome distraction in the working day, to engage in reasonable discussion & without hint of prejudice / baiting. Repeated chirps of xenophobia for example show a blatant disregard for many of the underlying reasons for a majority of voters voting to leave the EU. In fact, I would go as far as to say it’s fairly insulting if I was being perfectly honest.
I fully respect your passion for the EU & perhaps expected a reasoned / healthy debate in here - despite the emotive subject matter - covering all perspectives & opinions. It would appear from a number of barbed replies that this isn’t the case sadly.
As uncle Duncan Bannatyne would say, “for that reason, I’m ooooooot”
Wasn't some of the 40 billion the UK sends to the EU spent in the UK? The EU funds spent in the UK had to come from somewhere. Anyway, I doubt that money is what saves the EU from serious economical problems.
For my part, I regret the departures that have been announced.
While I support the EU and have not much understanding for the desire to leave the EU, I have been trying to reply to as many questions or critical points that have been raised. And I have tried to mention and consider arguments from "the other side", so calling me "one-eyed-blinkered" does not really hit it.
It was never my intention to insult anyone here, if that has been perceived, I apologize.
I really apologize, but I won't back down!
Xenophobia has been mentioned as a cause for that perception.
If everyone has followed this thread, it should be clear, that I have called NO-ONE xenophobic!
What I am referring to a xenophobic tone and element of the Brexit vote, has been mentioned, but I'll repeat it quick:
These posters have been clearly xenophobic!! And they were there for a reason and they had infuence in the vote!
Nigel Farage:
"Without the topic of immigration, we would not have won. I understood that very early on, Bannon understood that very early on."
And of course, these populists don't walk around and say: "We hate foreigners"!!!!
Immigration with that xenophobic undertone may have not been the key driver for the Brexit vote but it has been significant enough to give the edge Pro-Brexit with a 2/4% majority over remain.
I can't see anyone seriously disputing that!
We have an EU-critical populist party (AfD) in our parliament, who started being against the EURO and they were fighting for survival for many years!
Until they discovered refugees as the universal topic with a strong xenophobic undertone.
They are sitting now in our parliament with 12.7% and I have no problem calling them nationalist and xenophobic and that they are simply traveling on that ticket supported and elected by parts of the German population, sadly.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I'm not trying to stir unrest, and I doubt it will change anyone's views on Brexit, but it is well-written. I particularly like it because its title juxtaposes exactly with that of an essay John Le Carré wrote for The Times in 2003, excoriating the US for the coming invasion of Iraq.
Comments
For Europe. I agree Democracy seems to come and go
It's ironic that the oldest democracy seems to be desperate to get rid of it - without a proper alternative.
Wait, I am speaking about democracy and not about the EU
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
What is undemocratic of doing what 52% of your population
Want ?
Not to do it is Undemocratic !
looking at your very liberal use of capitals, I totally agree in your case
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Just for the argument's sake, I'd say that the way the Brexit camp conducted the opinionbuilding, has nothing remotely to do with democracy. And everything else was a result of that.
I's purely Putin's agenda: Polarizing people by lies, manipulation, fear and anger (and xenophobia may I say - I know that this is polarizing) and then "innocently" claiming "I've gotten the democratic majority"
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Why is one country's desire to leave the EU
Going to bring down the whole of western
Civilisation?
Is the EU that fragile an institution ?
I think many things went wrong after the Brexit vote. The Brexit election was decided by a prime minister whio didn't want a Brexit and didn't believe there would be one, so he didn't plan for one. Then everyone forgot the people had voted against remaining in the EU, but no one really knew or cared to check what they wanted instead. I highly doubt many of the voters even knew what they wanted instead of an EU membership. Is it any wonder the negotiations with the EU is a mess?
May I point out, that remotely replying to your question, I am doing much more than you with your usual approach.
Truth is, the EU is prepared to let the UK go, but the UK can't get their act together how they want to leave.
The EU has always respected the Referendum outcome but the EU has certain rules and the parting process is much more difficult then joining.
The analogy is well known:
It's a bit like putting an opened egg back into the shell.
And you know the issues at the irish border, if Ireland is split of any kind, this will be leading to further unrest for sure.
And during the negotiation process, it became clearer, that the UK were still keen keeping the common market but get rid of everything else.
That can't be. The EU cost a lot of money, if you want to participate - you have to pay and stick with the rules. Should not be difficult to understand.
But the UK negotiation team felt so superior that they would be able to play out the EU countries against each other and lever a deal with all benefits and no dues - hoping that the German carmakers will force their government to budge.
That did not work!
But I guess that you know all this already, so why ask?
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I'm sorry, but that is absolute rubbish!
The remain campaign here spent £9M on a leaflet through each & every front door, yet this gets conveniently forgotten by every EU / remain supporter.
The lies & manipulation were prevalent on BOTH sides of the campaign - please don't try & make this solely a leave campaign attribute. We have been subjected here to constant pro-EU media (BBC / Sky news to name but 2) in the days before the referendum & certainly post it ... nothing to do with their part-funding whatsoever of course
The simple fact is that the then leader of the country, David Cameron, offered a referendum to the public in the thinking that there was very little hope of the public voting to leave the EU. The result caused a huge surprise to all in power & we are still facing the fall-out of it with their absolute sh*t show of sorting it out.
It is worth remembering that 406 constituencies voted to leave, 242 to remain.
148 Labour constituencies voted to leave, 84 to remain.
247 Conservative constituencies voted to leave, 80 to remain.
9 "Regions" voted to leave, 3 voted to remain.
The real problem lies in the statistic that 160 MP's voted to leave, but 486 voted to remain. They are self-serving, not serving their constituencies.
Political class and the voting class.
52% of the public voted to leave while the commons
Is around 80% remainers.
The parliament elections have been AFTER the referendum, so I could turn your argument around and say:
2016, there where 52% Brexiteers and 2017, that number has fallen to 20%.
But that's not true.
I've told you this several times, politics is not as easy like you want to imply.
Yes, the vote was 52% to leave the EU. But the (2017 - so AFTER the referendum) elected mps are trying to find a way to leaving the EU without driving the UK into disaster (which the vast majority of experts predict to happen with a Hard Brexit - feel free to be more expert than them).
If that disaster after Brexit would or will become reality, you will be the first one to point out how incompetent your own polititicans are, or how evil the EU is not allowing the UK being in the common market or blame them otherwise.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
History professor Daniele Bolelli, said in a heavy Italian accent.
Really??
Man, that sounds evil!!
I fail to comprehend what should be wrong about that?
Was there any xenophobia being driven, or lies about the NHS or anything?
Maybe you want to educate yourself about the targetted social media campaining that Brexit did with the help of Cambridge analytica and Putin by targetting people and feed them with plain lies, pure hate and fear and xenophobia!
So far, I have to see any of these perceived lies from the remainers. For sure many of the predictions have been done for the future and incase of a Hard Brexit. As that is all in the future, how can these be lies?
The lies from the Brexiteers have been already exposed and the main actors have left the ship by continuing their destructive apporach.
If there was a competition in terms of lies, I'd say that the Brexiteers would have won by some miles.
But the Brexiteer's reflex "but Remain also lied" is hilarious. As if it makes it any better. Childish.
The main difference is, that Brexit was heavily supported by Murdoch and Putin and that you are trying to defend it or find it ok just shows how radical your point of view is.
Just be happy to still have the BBC and other main media, otherwise, you'd be stuck with Murdoch and Russia today :v
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
No, the problem is, that politics and leading a country is not that easy!
It's not that easy like all the populists imply!
The parliament elections were AFTER the referendum.
And the differences are easily explained by the fact, that the majority of the Tory Brexiteers are not willing or are unable to stick with their lies during the Brexit campaignings and deliver a Hard Brexit.
Because they follow the experts and know, how terrible the outcome is.
I find it remarkable that you don't mention or ignore this point - the possible fallout of a Hard Brexit.
But you insist that the MPs are driving the country into the wall with a Hard Brexit just because you hate the EU.
And I find it remarkable, that you aggressively demand now Labour to help the Brexiteers for a majority for a Hard Brexit - just because the party that you support is unable to decide, what they WANT.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
They were voted in on " respecting and implementing " the
Will of the people, but so far have consistently blocked
Brexit. So more Remain lies.
And what was again "The will of the people"?
And as they all lie, why do you believe them that they would "respect and implement" the will of people.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Many amendments from Brexit MPs but
Allows them from the Ulta Remain MPs.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Election saying they would enact the will of the people, they have
Done the opposite, some have actually left their original parties, to
Follow their own agenda.
The speaker of the house campaigned for remain
I follow politics very closely and I'm not on facebook, your
Typical condescending, superior tone, that all who voted to
leave are Stupid is standard language of the remain side.
I knew what I voted for to leave the EU, lock, stock and barrel !
The sooner we just get on with a no deal Brexit the better. :x
For the Referendum, you say, that the vote was based on thorough research, comprehensive discussions and an educated decision.
So, in summary, the voters have not been misled.
At the same time, you say quite the contrary about the parliament elections by saying that the voters have been cheated by the elected mps.
So, voters have been misled.
Isn't that a bit contradictory?
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Any substantial evidence for that claim?
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Can't wait for the German voter to pick up the slack
Of around 40 billion euro after we leave.
Are predicting 0% growth.... yes, Sounds like a great
Success
On a personal level, I visit this site as a welcome distraction in the working day, to engage in reasonable discussion & without hint of prejudice / baiting. Repeated chirps of xenophobia for example show a blatant disregard for many of the underlying reasons for a majority of voters voting to leave the EU. In fact, I would go as far as to say it’s fairly insulting if I was being perfectly honest.
I fully respect your passion for the EU & perhaps expected a reasoned / healthy debate in here - despite the emotive subject matter - covering all perspectives & opinions. It would appear from a number of barbed replies that this isn’t the case sadly.
As uncle Duncan Bannatyne would say, “for that reason, I’m ooooooot”
Keep it impersonal, guys.
Eye to eye ( weepy or not ) on this.
While I support the EU and have not much understanding for the desire to leave the EU, I have been trying to reply to as many questions or critical points that have been raised. And I have tried to mention and consider arguments from "the other side", so calling me "one-eyed-blinkered" does not really hit it.
It was never my intention to insult anyone here, if that has been perceived, I apologize.
I really apologize, but I won't back down!
Xenophobia has been mentioned as a cause for that perception.
If everyone has followed this thread, it should be clear, that I have called NO-ONE xenophobic!
What I am referring to a xenophobic tone and element of the Brexit vote, has been mentioned, but I'll repeat it quick:
These posters have been clearly xenophobic!! And they were there for a reason and they had infuence in the vote!
Nigel Farage:
"Without the topic of immigration, we would not have won. I understood that very early on, Bannon understood that very early on."
And of course, these populists don't walk around and say: "We hate foreigners"!!!!
Immigration with that xenophobic undertone may have not been the key driver for the Brexit vote but it has been significant enough to give the edge Pro-Brexit with a 2/4% majority over remain.
I can't see anyone seriously disputing that!
We have an EU-critical populist party (AfD) in our parliament, who started being against the EURO and they were fighting for survival for many years!
Until they discovered refugees as the universal topic with a strong xenophobic undertone.
They are sitting now in our parliament with 12.7% and I have no problem calling them nationalist and xenophobic and that they are simply traveling on that ticket supported and elected by parts of the German population, sadly.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
" I just threw my guns down and walked away "
I'm not trying to stir unrest, and I doubt it will change anyone's views on Brexit, but it is well-written. I particularly like it because its title juxtaposes exactly with that of an essay John Le Carré wrote for The Times in 2003, excoriating the US for the coming invasion of Iraq.