He doesn't seem like leadership material, no. How he must have hated it when Tony Blair was PM!
I think the idea is leaving the EU, but staying in the customs union must involve paying the EU for the acess to the comon market. This way British business will have an easier time and the Nortern Ireland/Ireland border problem goes away. I suppose the goal is not having to follow EU rules and laws not directly rlated to trade. That's my interpretation anyway.
The customs Union path was always the easier go to plan, father of the house Kenneth Clarke put forward a bill for such a plan this week, but it was voted down.
Corbyn firstly stated he wanted a second referendum, then pledged to abide by the brexit vote in his parties general election manifesto, and has since flopped back and forth for now settling on the customs Union scenario.
Interesting to note that 56% percent of labour seats voted leave, and most Labour mp's want to remain or support a second referendum. The tories figures are more obvious to figure out. Not that I like the man, but Gove gave quite a good speech not so long ago, it was not much to Corbyns liking.
As for Corbyn sitting down plotting the downfall of the country? No, its his grand socialist ideas, his communist loving views that make him dangerous.
On this week's Frankie Boyle show, he played a great clip of
Jeremy Corbyn. Asking FOR a referendum to Leave the EU )
What a hypocrite....... any wonder his poster gets used for
Shooting practice.
Parliament is full of hypocrites I'm afraid.
I'll bet the target acquisition has become more accurate though )
I have spent some time writing this. I hope you will all be able to understand.
The question stands. It is simple. Who believes in the democratic right of the people to exercise their vote and who believes that these same votes must be honoured regardless of personal opinion? There is and can be no grey area and no caveats when it comes to this. Democracy or autocracy. The rule of the majority in a free and fair vote. That is what it comes down to, and their expectation that their wishes will then be carried out by those they elect to represent them.
Things now take a dark turn in Britain because many MPs choose to go against the very people who elected them to office. This is where a serious, even fatal breakdown in trust occurs. Where do you go from there? As far as I am aware the first responsibility of an MP is to represent the wishes of their constituents. When the voters see that they are not being represented or indeed their wishes are being ignored or actively over turned, to who do they turn? This is where the extreme parties come in. By this I don’t mean Nazis but extreme anti EU or immigration or any thing else they can use as a whipping boy to stir up support. They cause problems not only for the UK but in the EU also. In my humble opinion it would be far better for everyone, both the UK and the EU if the EU did not agree to any more extensions. To cut the rope then make trade arrangements afterwards would be painful but in the long term I think better for both parties in every way and indeed limit the damage instead of making it worse by be being seen by many to be going against the very wishes of the majority.
I would also hope that the programme of propaganda from both sides, propaganda which is based mostly on lies, would stop long enough for the ordinary people to see through the fog. This propaganda can be very direct or very subtle and is used as a weapon by some to target groups or even individual people. This does nothing but stir up more discontent, but then that is the purpose.
Blame any one you like but never blame the people for exercising a right that has been paid for by the blood of others who fought and died so that you would have that freedom of choice.
It's not a question of Democracy or autocracy. In the Brexit referendum the people voted on what they didn't want, there was no majority or Clear messege about what they wanted instead of the EU. It shouldn't be a surprise that about 50 years of membership in hte EU is difficult and complicated to end, especially when there is no clear and realsitic idea of how the UK should leave.
I disagree on every point. They were asked one question. Leave the EU or remain. The majority was to leave. Everything else is just excuses. Even somebody as dim witted as me can see that this is jumped on then used as an excuse to frustrate the voters.
Do you believe in the right for people to vote and the majority to stand? And the that their wishes be respected?
The question was quite simple - yes the answers are not but made more complicated by the politicians who do not want to leave any way as we have seen. You must always remember that was the choice leave or remain. It was not leave with a deal or leave but stay in some things. The question as it stood then was to leave and that is what should happen now more than ever for both the UK and the EU.
Yes of course the leave people said many fairy stories about trade deals but so did the remain people about other things. Just because they want to interpret things to suit themselves does not dilute the question as it was on the paper.
{[] an uncomplicated question with an uncomplicated answer.
The only complications come from those who do not want to
Carry out the will of the people.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
This goes back to cherry picking. I would not expect the EU to let the UK have the best of the trade and such like and nor should anybody else. It also goes back to the sheer incompetence of the British government and all other MPs. They voted for this referendum. They promised to uphold the result whatever the circumstance, they voted for article 50. But when the realisation of the situation hit them they have been backpedalling ever since.
Again do not blame the people. Do not try to reverse a decision they made which they were given by the parliament. I think the EU will be damaged by brexit what ever happens now because millions of British people who are angry with their government will cause much trouble. While the EU will suffer in the fallout it will not as much as the confidence in British politics which I think has been damaged beyond repair.
{[] an uncomplicated question with an uncomplicated answer.
The only complications come from those who do not want to
Carry out the will of the people.
Yes exactly. The only people who complicate are those who have their own agendas. I am not for one second suggesting that things would not be tough out side the EU. But I think it has now gone beyond that to a wholly different level. As I said the EU will be damaged in the fall out if brexit is cancelled, it would be better for them to say no, you must go and stop causing us trouble.
I disagree on every point. They were asked one question. Leave the EU or remain. The majority was to leave. Everything else is just excuses. Even somebody as dim witted as me can see that this is jumped on then used as an excuse to frustrate the voters.
Do you believe in the right for people to vote and the majority to stand? And the that their wishes be respected?
The question was quite simple - yes the answers are not but made more complicated by the politicians who do not want to leave any way as we have seen. You must always remember that was the choice leave or remain. It was not leave with a deal or leave but stay in some things. The question as it stood then was to leave and that is what should happen now more than ever for both the UK and the EU.
Yes of course the leave people said many fairy stories about trade deals but so did the remain people about other things. Just because they want to interpret things to suit themselves does not dilute the question as it was on the paper.
Leave the EU or Remain in the EU.
The majority of the British people wanted to leave the EU, that much is clear and the UK should leave the EU. The referendum was a clear result (by only a few percentages, but still) message about what the British people didn't want. They didn't want the UK to be a member of the EU anymore.
There are are more than one ways to relate to the EU without being a member state. Norway, Switzerland and Canada have chosen different models. Only a small part of the British people want to leave the EU without some sort of deal, and leaving without a deal will create big problems for the EU.
It's not a simple question of being a member of the EU or not being a member. It's a conplicated question of what will the relationship between he UK and the EU be in the future now that the UK is leaving. There are many possible answers and the people or the Parliament has not yet found the solution.
{[] an uncomplicated question with an uncomplicated answer.
The only complications come from those who do not want to
Carry out the will of the people.
So, by YOUR definition:
Is only a Hard Brexit reflecting the majority of votes?
Or does that include Brexit with a deal (as you are still leaving the EU)?
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I don't know how many times I can post this.... 8-)
During the referendum, it was made very clear to us ( the voters )
By David Cameron and the Remain side. That Leave meant leaving
EVERY ASPECT of the EU. So to think long and hard over our vote,
Because of all the terrible things which would happen. Happily
Even with this " gun to their head" the MAJORITY of the British
People voted to leave {[]
It's only after the vote when all the remainers started their underhand
Tactics of keeping us in at all costs. As Joshua has pointed out
Many times too, if you call yourself a Democrat, you'll respect the
Majority vote. If not, ..... then I don't care how you wrap it up, but
You're not a Democrat, your a dictatorship. or what else would
You call a country were a Minority, makes all the decisions ..... the
EU, I guess ! )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Well, you have complained about insults and your post is full of them.
Anyhow, to your interpretation, everything else then a Hard Brexit is treason against the majority of votes in the referendum.
Thanks for clearing this up.
Having said this, in my memory, the vote and the potential consequences where not so clear like you say.
First of all, I'd say that all Tories would call Cameron a liar, so why would they have believed him with the mentioned claims?
Secondly I remember discussions BEFORE and AFTER the vote, that the UK once that article 50 was pulled, could lever and hardpress the EU to keeping the benefits of the common market because the german automakers would blackmail the EU to prevent tarifs on their cars and thus would never let a Hard Brexit happen.
Anyhow, I know now how your perception was.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Always the victim, you're not above throwing a few
Insults yourself Hence why I don't engage with
You, and your EU propaganda thread .
Please point out the personal insult from my above post and
I"ll delete it.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
First of all: it's nice to see you invested in the future of Britain and the rest of Europe, but isn't it time to calm down a bit? Perhaps a nice Coke Zero at SABS?
TP, do you really mean the will of the people in the referendum was that the UK should leave the EU without any deal on how to trade between them? No deal on what the status of EU citizens in the UK or British citizens in the EU is?
“We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. ... If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.”
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Seems that BREXIT is a very bad example for a potential SWEXIT.
During the campaigning for the 2018 Swedish elections, The Left Party and the Far Right SD demanded that Sweden is leaving the EU.
The Left Party has now deleted that from their party programme as "We are not supporting anymore, that Sweden is leaving the EU" says Party Leader Jonas Sjöstedt.
Even the far Right SD backed down and now want to renegotiate the conditions of the EU membership, as "Now it's not the right time to leaving the EU" (Jimmie Åkesson)
Among the big Parties in the middle, there is no-one who supports a SWEXIT.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Comments
I think the idea is leaving the EU, but staying in the customs union must involve paying the EU for the acess to the comon market. This way British business will have an easier time and the Nortern Ireland/Ireland border problem goes away. I suppose the goal is not having to follow EU rules and laws not directly rlated to trade. That's my interpretation anyway.
Corbyn firstly stated he wanted a second referendum, then pledged to abide by the brexit vote in his parties general election manifesto, and has since flopped back and forth for now settling on the customs Union scenario.
Interesting to note that 56% percent of labour seats voted leave, and most Labour mp's want to remain or support a second referendum. The tories figures are more obvious to figure out. Not that I like the man, but Gove gave quite a good speech not so long ago, it was not much to Corbyns liking.
As for Corbyn sitting down plotting the downfall of the country? No, its his grand socialist ideas, his communist loving views that make him dangerous.
https://youtu.be/HjrEpFi3QOE
Parliament is full of hypocrites I'm afraid.
I'll bet the target acquisition has become more accurate though
The question stands. It is simple. Who believes in the democratic right of the people to exercise their vote and who believes that these same votes must be honoured regardless of personal opinion? There is and can be no grey area and no caveats when it comes to this. Democracy or autocracy. The rule of the majority in a free and fair vote. That is what it comes down to, and their expectation that their wishes will then be carried out by those they elect to represent them.
Things now take a dark turn in Britain because many MPs choose to go against the very people who elected them to office. This is where a serious, even fatal breakdown in trust occurs. Where do you go from there? As far as I am aware the first responsibility of an MP is to represent the wishes of their constituents. When the voters see that they are not being represented or indeed their wishes are being ignored or actively over turned, to who do they turn? This is where the extreme parties come in. By this I don’t mean Nazis but extreme anti EU or immigration or any thing else they can use as a whipping boy to stir up support. They cause problems not only for the UK but in the EU also. In my humble opinion it would be far better for everyone, both the UK and the EU if the EU did not agree to any more extensions. To cut the rope then make trade arrangements afterwards would be painful but in the long term I think better for both parties in every way and indeed limit the damage instead of making it worse by be being seen by many to be going against the very wishes of the majority.
I would also hope that the programme of propaganda from both sides, propaganda which is based mostly on lies, would stop long enough for the ordinary people to see through the fog. This propaganda can be very direct or very subtle and is used as a weapon by some to target groups or even individual people. This does nothing but stir up more discontent, but then that is the purpose.
Blame any one you like but never blame the people for exercising a right that has been paid for by the blood of others who fought and died so that you would have that freedom of choice.
Do you believe in the right for people to vote and the majority to stand? And the that their wishes be respected?
The question was quite simple - yes the answers are not but made more complicated by the politicians who do not want to leave any way as we have seen. You must always remember that was the choice leave or remain. It was not leave with a deal or leave but stay in some things. The question as it stood then was to leave and that is what should happen now more than ever for both the UK and the EU.
Yes of course the leave people said many fairy stories about trade deals but so did the remain people about other things. Just because they want to interpret things to suit themselves does not dilute the question as it was on the paper.
Leave the EU or Remain in the EU.
The only complications come from those who do not want to
Carry out the will of the people.
Again do not blame the people. Do not try to reverse a decision they made which they were given by the parliament. I think the EU will be damaged by brexit what ever happens now because millions of British people who are angry with their government will cause much trouble. While the EU will suffer in the fallout it will not as much as the confidence in British politics which I think has been damaged beyond repair.
Yes exactly. The only people who complicate are those who have their own agendas. I am not for one second suggesting that things would not be tough out side the EU. But I think it has now gone beyond that to a wholly different level. As I said the EU will be damaged in the fall out if brexit is cancelled, it would be better for them to say no, you must go and stop causing us trouble.
The majority of the British people wanted to leave the EU, that much is clear and the UK should leave the EU. The referendum was a clear result (by only a few percentages, but still) message about what the British people didn't want. They didn't want the UK to be a member of the EU anymore.
There are are more than one ways to relate to the EU without being a member state. Norway, Switzerland and Canada have chosen different models. Only a small part of the British people want to leave the EU without some sort of deal, and leaving without a deal will create big problems for the EU.
It's not a simple question of being a member of the EU or not being a member. It's a conplicated question of what will the relationship between he UK and the EU be in the future now that the UK is leaving. There are many possible answers and the people or the Parliament has not yet found the solution.
So, by YOUR definition:
Is only a Hard Brexit reflecting the majority of votes?
Or does that include Brexit with a deal (as you are still leaving the EU)?
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
During the referendum, it was made very clear to us ( the voters )
By David Cameron and the Remain side. That Leave meant leaving
EVERY ASPECT of the EU. So to think long and hard over our vote,
Because of all the terrible things which would happen. Happily
Even with this " gun to their head" the MAJORITY of the British
People voted to leave {[]
It's only after the vote when all the remainers started their underhand
Tactics of keeping us in at all costs.
Many times too, if you call yourself a Democrat, you'll respect the
Majority vote. If not, ..... then I don't care how you wrap it up, but
You're not a Democrat, your a dictatorship.
You call a country were a Minority, makes all the decisions ..... the
EU, I guess !
Anyhow, to your interpretation, everything else then a Hard Brexit is treason against the majority of votes in the referendum.
Thanks for clearing this up.
Having said this, in my memory, the vote and the potential consequences where not so clear like you say.
First of all, I'd say that all Tories would call Cameron a liar, so why would they have believed him with the mentioned claims?
Secondly I remember discussions BEFORE and AFTER the vote, that the UK once that article 50 was pulled, could lever and hardpress the EU to keeping the benefits of the common market because the german automakers would blackmail the EU to prevent tarifs on their cars and thus would never let a Hard Brexit happen.
Anyhow, I know now how your perception was.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Insults yourself
You, and your EU propaganda thread .
Please point out the personal insult from my above post and
I"ll delete it.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Any dealings with you. {[] just post my thoughts on the
Situation.
Does not match to your sarcastic attitude. Anyhow {[]
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
TP, do you really mean the will of the people in the referendum was that the UK should leave the EU without any deal on how to trade between them? No deal on what the status of EU citizens in the UK or British citizens in the EU is?
“We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. ... If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.”
Winston Churchill, the quote about the people being
Democracy, was from Franklin D Roosevelt.
Since my peace bunny
seems to be not working. Once more: don't let this get personal, please.
During the campaigning for the 2018 Swedish elections, The Left Party and the Far Right SD demanded that Sweden is leaving the EU.
The Left Party has now deleted that from their party programme as "We are not supporting anymore, that Sweden is leaving the EU" says Party Leader Jonas Sjöstedt.
Even the far Right SD backed down and now want to renegotiate the conditions of the EU membership, as "Now it's not the right time to leaving the EU" (Jimmie Åkesson)
Among the big Parties in the middle, there is no-one who supports a SWEXIT.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Another Year of This ?
(Only Trekkies will get this)
I will not bother to watch these. I can not stand any thing to do with outer space or aliens.