And to all crocodile tears about the (not yet approved) extension:
Chris correctly said, that the 17 million Brexiteers had thousand of different ideas how their Brexit would look like.
The choice to leave with a Hard Brexit was voted down by parliament, government.
Leaving with a deal is still possible
Revoking Article 15 is still an option.
Everything is up to the UK to decide, so save us all the moaning about ignoring the people‘s vote.
Brexit is still an option and possible.
It was possible, your politicians screwed up badly and an extension gives time to clear some minds.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
It is interesting to see grasping at sound bites and the turning of the discussion away from something which can not be defended. The contempt for the result a free vote becomes also apparent. This long standing method of operation becomes obvious to even an iliterate fool like me!
N24. While you are correct that big countries have more influence over China than small countries, you forget the original quote that the EU was given an assurance from the Chinese that they will be fairer for European busineses.
This is the same China which openly breaks trade marks laws and always rules with its own companies when they are challenged in the Chinese courts!
Only a fool would trust the Chinese and their word. This is blunt but correct.
Mr Junker would have just as well have said he had got an assurance from ISIS that they would stop carrying out terrorist activity in the middle east and Europe. It would have as much validity. Again I point out that to have this agreement with the Chinese accepted as a 'victory' is nothing but a demonstration of naivety.
Again I ask that this very topic is visited again in two or three years to see how the EU has fared in this with China and China has stuck to to the agreement.
I know the Chinese don't play it fair, I'm not naive. But it's also a fact that a big economy gives you more leverage against other big economy and the EU has a better chanse than any single country in Europe.
I also have to repeat that the British population never said what they wanted instead of a EU membership. There's not one model for how to be outside the Union. There are even several models for EU membership, from the small (Sweden can keep producing and using tobacco snuff) to the big (keeping the national currency instead of switching to the Euro). It's not a case of the EU doing everything they can to force the UK to stay in the Union. The EU wants a system in place for trading with Britain, but they can't give too much in the negotiations.
Once again I'll point out that during the referendum. It was made very clear.........
Leave meant leaving all aspects of the EU. No customs union etc. It was only
After the leave victory that the remain PM, the remain cabinet, the remain parliament
The remain opposition all set out to keep us in !
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Once again I'll point out that during the referendum. It was made very clear.........
Leave meant leaving all aspects of the EU. No customs union etc. It was only
After the leave victory that the remain PM, the remain cabinet, the remain parliament
The remain opposition all set out to keep us in !
I disagree. The only thing that was clear was that the majority wanted to leave the EU. And they should, of course.
N24, were you in the UK for the vote ,? Were you sent the
Government leaflet pointing out why we should stay in
The EU and the terrible consequence of Leaving ?
At the core of this discussion is as Higgins jokes. Do you
Respect a democratic vote or not ? Are you a Democrat or
A dictator ?
Even the latest poll shows a 75% support for leaving )
I think history will be on the leave side, I know the public is !
Perhaps it was wrong of us, we should just continue to Obey
Our EU masters )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
The blind hate for the EU still works.
Instead of blaming their own politicians that they were not able to get Brexit done, it‘s still the EU.
And the oh so „democratic“ Brexit extremists have no acceptance that part of the Brexit votes were NOT for a Hard Brexit but something else.
If you say that, you are in Gaddafi territory in their opinion.
Weird and polar interpretation of democracy.
And now Joshua showing up telling us rightly that he knows how torture and dictatorship feels like.
By repeating on and on "respect democratic votes" he conveniently overlooks, that "Leave" the EU can have hundreds of interpretations open, how to leave the EU.
So, if he demands to respect the vote, my question is:
What exactly was the vote?
"Leaving the EU" is not a legitimate reply and
"Leaving the EU hard, unregulated and without a deal" was not written on the ballot paper
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I can only speak for myself but I don't like the direction the
EU is taking.
Trading is fine, but having to take all the laws,
and regulations, even now a European army ?.
I simply have no wish to live in a province of the United
States of Europe.
Telling us what you don't want.....
Instead of telling us what you want and no - you can't have free trade without the laws and rules.
I see a pattern - just look at the decisions what the House of parliament doesn't want.
And you have not given us a working suggestion how to solve the issue in Ireland still.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
How quickly this becomes an anti British rant................ 8-)
Quite true, its a very easy route to take, not helped in any way by the British medias reporting. Its very convenient for many to say we voted to leave because the brits can't stand immigration or our hatred of Europe or the EU. This is simply not true and becomes the populist view point. Those seeking true facts need to take a trip through the history books, London has for centuries been one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world, international shipping bringing people from all over the world, we were instrumental in bringing the slave trade to a stop, fighting against apartheid, globalising trade, democratic rule, liberating women, free health care, universities for all, creating a police force to protect its citizens, the list goes on. Its remarkable how now the brits are lambasted as intolerant troglodytes more interested in football than anything else.
I'm also sick and tired of the tone of pretty much the entire British medias reporting on Brexit, "Britain pleads" "Britain humiliated" "Mays deal", non of which are factually correct.
I have to agree with Higgins here. It's the UK politicians who have caused this situation, not the EU ones.
This is without doubt. It's been a catalogue of errors. I'm just waiting for the Queen to dissolve parliament!
Bad decision number 1: instigating a referendum without any kind of plan whatsoever for a leave vote winning.
Bad decision 2: May holding a general election when the country has just announced by the referendum its totally split, and throwing away its working majority.
Bad decision 3: not immediately creating a cross party team to negotiate the withdrawal agreement, overseen and approved by the government.
Bad decision 4: May heading negotiations.
Fooking Awful decision 4: mps being allowed to wrestle power from the government.
Bad decision 5: May not keeping the ERG a bit closer and involving them to create more harmony in the tories.
And on and on and on.
How quickly this becomes an anti British rant................ 8-)
Quite true, its a very easy route to take, not helped in any way by the British medias reporting. Its very convenient for many to say we voted to leave because the brits can't stand immigration or our hatred of Europe or the EU. This is simply not true and becomes the populist view point. Those seeking true facts need to take a trip through the history books, London has for centuries been one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world, international shipping bringing people from all over the world, we were instrumental in bringing the slave trade to a stop, fighting against apartheid, globalising trade, democratic rule, liberating women, free health care, universities for all, creating a police force to protect its citizens, the list goes on. Its remarkable how now the brits are lambasted as intolerant troglodytes more interested in football than anything else.
I'm also sick and tired of the tone of pretty much the entire British medias reporting on Brexit, "Britain pleads" "Britain humiliated" "Mays deal", non of which are factually correct.
Matter of fact is, that London alone has voted to remain
London never was an issue in terms of openess or immigration.
As for the hatred for the EU, just take the time to browse thru most of TP's posts or the shameful piece of garbage which Joshua posted as an "article" which is an opinion and you'll get it all confirmed.
Or just listen to one of the countless speeches from Nigel Farage.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
How quickly this becomes an anti British rant................ 8-)
Quite true, its a very easy route to take, not helped in any way by the British medias reporting. Its very convenient for many to say we voted to leave because the brits can't stand immigration or our hatred of Europe or the EU. This is simply not true and becomes the populist view point. Those seeking true facts need to take a trip through the history books, London has for centuries been one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world, international shipping bringing people from all over the world, we were instrumental in bringing the slave trade to a stop, fighting against apartheid, globalising trade, democratic rule, liberating women, free health care, universities for all, creating a police force to protect its citizens, the list goes on. Its remarkable how now the brits are lambasted as intolerant troglodytes more interested in football than anything else.
I'm also sick and tired of the tone of pretty much the entire British medias reporting on Brexit, "Britain pleads" "Britain humiliated" "Mays deal", non of which are factually correct.
Matter of fact is, that London alone has voted to remain
London never was an issue in terms of openess or immigration.
As for the hatred for the EU, just take the time to browse thru most of TP's posts or the shameful piece of garbage which Joshua posted as an "article" which is an opinion and you'll get it all confirmed.
Or just listen to one of the countless speeches from Nigel Farage.
Non of which are truly representative of the vast majority of UK citizens. TP is entitled to his opinion and he is not alone in that opinion. UkIP managed to get 3.8 million votes in 2015, but significantly less in 2017. The fact remains that the EU is not beyond reproach, and thankfully some do criticise it, should that stop then t would be a dangerous thing.
[
Bad decision 3: not immediately creating a cross party team to negotiate the withdrawal agreement, overseen and approved by the government.
The problem with that would have been the Hardliners, who along to TP's interpretation want a Hard Brexit and nothing else.
She would have lost immediately almost 50% of mps - and as things are now most of them crack under pressure and vote for her deal. It that was her plan and not a cause of events - she's done that pretty well
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
[
Bad decision 3: not immediately creating a cross party team to negotiate the withdrawal agreement, overseen and approved by the government.
The problem with that would have been the Hardliners, who along to TP's interpretation want a Hard Brexit and nothing else.
She would have lost immediately almost 50% of mps - and as things are now most of them crack under pressure and vote for her deal. It that was her plan and not a cause of events - she's done that pretty well
Not really, the vast majority of mps stood on a manifesto to deliver brexit. As I've said such things are above party politics.
None of which are truly representative of the vast majority of UK citizens. TP is entitled to his opinion and he is not alone in that opinion. UkIP managed to get 3.8 million votes in 2015, but significantly less in 2017. The fact remains that the EU is not beyond reproach, and thankfully some do criticise it, should that stop then t would be a dangerous thing.
I totally agree and TP is absolutely entitled of his own opinion and voicing it*
The fun stops, when all opinions that are different to his, are labeled to be undemocratic and worse with the friendly support from Joshua.
And you are correct - there are many different opinions along the UK citizens, but it's also wrong to deny a blind hatred against the EU in parts and some of them are downright xenophobic. Not all of them, but an important number - just like throughout other EU countries, including Germany.
*which doesn't mean that I don't call him out when I think that he's wrong
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I have to agree with Higgins here. It's the UK politicians who have caused this situation, not the EU ones.
This is without doubt. It's been a catalogue of errors. I'm just waiting for the Queen to dissolve parliament!
Bad decision number 1: instigating a referendum without any kind of plan whatsoever for a leave vote winning.
Bad decision 2: May holding a general election when the country has just announced by the referendum its totally split, and throwing away its working majority.
Bad decision 3: not immediately creating a cross party team to negotiate the withdrawal agreement, overseen and approved by the government.
Bad decision 4: May heading negotiations.
Fooking Awful decision 4: mps being allowed to wrestle power from the government.
Bad decision 5: May not keeping the ERG a bit closer and involving them to create more harmony in the tories.
And on and on and on.
I don't know what an ERG is, but other than that I agree.
[
Bad decision 3: not immediately creating a cross party team to negotiate the withdrawal agreement, overseen and approved by the government.
The problem with that would have been the Hardliners, who along to TP's interpretation want a Hard Brexit and nothing else.
She would have lost immediately almost 50% of mps - and as things are now most of them crack under pressure and vote for her deal. It that was her plan and not a cause of events - she's done that pretty well
Not really, the vast majority of mps stood on a manifesto to deliver brexit. As I've said such things are above party politics.
Yes, and the Hardliners meant a Hard Brexit ONLY which never had a chance to get a majority in the parliament.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Non of which are truly representative of the vast majority of UK citizens. TP is entitled to his opinion and he is not alone in that opinion. UkIP managed to get 3.8 million votes in 2015, but significantly less in 2017. The fact remains that the EU is not beyond reproach, and thankfully some do criticise it, should that stop then t would be a dangerous thing.
I totally agree and TP is absolutely entitled of his own opinion and voicing it*
The fun stops, when all opinions that are different to his, are labeled to be undemocratic and worse with the friendly support from Joshua.
And you are correct - there are many different opinions along the UK citizens, but it's also wrong to deny a blind hatred against the EU in parts and some of them are downrigh xenophobic. Not all of them, but an important number - just like thruout other EU countries, including Germany.
*which doesn't mean that I don't call him out when I think that he's wrong
And in any society you will have those that spout blind hatred, but they are the minority thankfully and usually also those that think leaving the EU means the UK will no longer be part of Europe )
The interesting thing with this discussion is that TP lives in a part of the world that has become a brexit battleground and Joshua speaks as someone who has migrated to the UK from an oppressive regime, which adds a healthy balance to the debate and unique view points.
With reference to earlier, London did indeed vote to remain, but as a society is representative of nation. Most major cities in the UK are cosmopolitan. I'd wager though that Londons vote was weighted heavily by people worried about their jobs, and the opinion of civilised people does not stop at the m25.
"Leaving the EU hard, unregulated and without a deal" was not written on the ballot paper
Those of you who accuse Higgins and me of being undemocratic should remember what Higgins writes in the above quote. I've never been against Britain leabing the EU. I'm just aware that Britain has still not made clear waht they want instead a of an EU membership.
"Leaving the EU hard, unregulated and without a deal" was not written on the ballot paper
Those of you who accuse Higgins and me of being undemocratic should remember what Higgins writes in the above quote. I've never been against Britain leabing the EU. I'm just aware that Britain has still not made clear waht they want instead a of an EU membership.
I think the biggest shout of undemocratic behaviour has been levelled at UK politicians has it not?
Higgins point B is not particularly valid, as we had promises of utter economic and societal devastation should we vote to leave the EU.those warnings appear not to have influenced the voters.
Comments
And to all crocodile tears about the (not yet approved) extension:
Chris correctly said, that the 17 million Brexiteers had thousand of different ideas how their Brexit would look like.
The choice to leave with a Hard Brexit was voted down by parliament, government.
Leaving with a deal is still possible
Revoking Article 15 is still an option.
Everything is up to the UK to decide, so save us all the moaning about ignoring the people‘s vote.
Brexit is still an option and possible.
It was possible, your politicians screwed up badly and an extension gives time to clear some minds.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Smaller countries, like China, India, USA and Japan, who will only move under pressure.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Yeah, they're small fry.
Though, at the same time, I do have confidence in a UK outside of the EU trade model.
N24. While you are correct that big countries have more influence over China than small countries, you forget the original quote that the EU was given an assurance from the Chinese that they will be fairer for European busineses.
This is the same China which openly breaks trade marks laws and always rules with its own companies when they are challenged in the Chinese courts!
Only a fool would trust the Chinese and their word. This is blunt but correct.
Mr Junker would have just as well have said he had got an assurance from ISIS that they would stop carrying out terrorist activity in the middle east and Europe. It would have as much validity. Again I point out that to have this agreement with the Chinese accepted as a 'victory' is nothing but a demonstration of naivety.
Again I ask that this very topic is visited again in two or three years to see how the EU has fared in this with China and China has stuck to to the agreement.
I also have to repeat that the British population never said what they wanted instead of a EU membership. There's not one model for how to be outside the Union. There are even several models for EU membership, from the small (Sweden can keep producing and using tobacco snuff) to the big (keeping the national currency instead of switching to the Euro). It's not a case of the EU doing everything they can to force the UK to stay in the Union. The EU wants a system in place for trading with Britain, but they can't give too much in the negotiations.
Leave meant leaving all aspects of the EU. No customs union etc. It was only
After the leave victory that the remain PM, the remain cabinet, the remain parliament
The remain opposition all set out to keep us in !
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I disagree. The only thing that was clear was that the majority wanted to leave the EU. And they should, of course.
You‘ll soon be called an undemocrat
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Government leaflet pointing out why we should stay in
The EU and the terrible consequence of Leaving ?
At the core of this discussion is as Higgins jokes. Do you
Respect a democratic vote or not ? Are you a Democrat or
A dictator ?
Even the latest poll shows a 75% support for leaving
I think history will be on the leave side, I know the public is !
Perhaps it was wrong of us, we should just continue to Obey
Our EU masters
The blind hate for the EU still works.
Instead of blaming their own politicians that they were not able to get Brexit done, it‘s still the EU.
And the oh so „democratic“ Brexit extremists have no acceptance that part of the Brexit votes were NOT for a Hard Brexit but something else.
If you say that, you are in Gaddafi territory in their opinion.
Weird and polar interpretation of democracy.
And now Joshua showing up telling us rightly that he knows how torture and dictatorship feels like.
By repeating on and on "respect democratic votes" he conveniently overlooks, that "Leave" the EU can have hundreds of interpretations open, how to leave the EU.
So, if he demands to respect the vote, my question is:
What exactly was the vote?
"Leaving the EU" is not a legitimate reply and
"Leaving the EU hard, unregulated and without a deal" was not written on the ballot paper
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Telling us what you don't want.....
Instead of telling us what you want and no - you can't have free trade without the laws and rules.
I see a pattern - just look at the decisions what the House of parliament doesn't want.
And you have not given us a working suggestion how to solve the issue in Ireland still.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I'm also sick and tired of the tone of pretty much the entire British medias reporting on Brexit, "Britain pleads" "Britain humiliated" "Mays deal", non of which are factually correct.
Bad decision number 1: instigating a referendum without any kind of plan whatsoever for a leave vote winning.
Bad decision 2: May holding a general election when the country has just announced by the referendum its totally split, and throwing away its working majority.
Bad decision 3: not immediately creating a cross party team to negotiate the withdrawal agreement, overseen and approved by the government.
Bad decision 4: May heading negotiations.
Fooking Awful decision 4: mps being allowed to wrestle power from the government.
Bad decision 5: May not keeping the ERG a bit closer and involving them to create more harmony in the tories.
And on and on and on.
Matter of fact is, that London alone has voted to remain
London never was an issue in terms of openess or immigration.
As for the hatred for the EU, just take the time to browse thru most of TP's posts or the shameful piece of garbage which Joshua posted as an "article" which is an opinion and you'll get it all confirmed.
Or just listen to one of the countless speeches from Nigel Farage.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Non of which are truly representative of the vast majority of UK citizens. TP is entitled to his opinion and he is not alone in that opinion. UkIP managed to get 3.8 million votes in 2015, but significantly less in 2017. The fact remains that the EU is not beyond reproach, and thankfully some do criticise it, should that stop then t would be a dangerous thing.
The problem with that would have been the Hardliners, who along to TP's interpretation want a Hard Brexit and nothing else.
She would have lost immediately almost 50% of mps - and as things are now most of them crack under pressure and vote for her deal. It that was her plan and not a cause of events - she's done that pretty well
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Not really, the vast majority of mps stood on a manifesto to deliver brexit. As I've said such things are above party politics.
I totally agree and TP is absolutely entitled of his own opinion and voicing it*
The fun stops, when all opinions that are different to his, are labeled to be undemocratic and worse with the friendly support from Joshua.
And you are correct - there are many different opinions along the UK citizens, but it's also wrong to deny a blind hatred against the EU in parts and some of them are downright xenophobic. Not all of them, but an important number - just like throughout other EU countries, including Germany.
*which doesn't mean that I don't call him out when I think that he's wrong
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I don't know what an ERG is, but other than that I agree.
Yes, and the Hardliners meant a Hard Brexit ONLY which never had a chance to get a majority in the parliament.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
European
Research
Group
Rees-Mogg and friends
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
And in any society you will have those that spout blind hatred, but they are the minority thankfully and usually also those that think leaving the EU means the UK will no longer be part of Europe
The interesting thing with this discussion is that TP lives in a part of the world that has become a brexit battleground and Joshua speaks as someone who has migrated to the UK from an oppressive regime, which adds a healthy balance to the debate and unique view points.
With reference to earlier, London did indeed vote to remain, but as a society is representative of nation. Most major cities in the UK are cosmopolitan. I'd wager though that Londons vote was weighted heavily by people worried about their jobs, and the opinion of civilised people does not stop at the m25.
Those of you who accuse Higgins and me of being undemocratic should remember what Higgins writes in the above quote. I've never been against Britain leabing the EU. I'm just aware that Britain has still not made clear waht they want instead a of an EU membership.
Higgins point B is not particularly valid, as we had promises of utter economic and societal devastation should we vote to leave the EU.those warnings appear not to have influenced the voters.