Higgins - to my knowledge, no one here has said that the promise of economic devastation was an EU tactic? I'm fairly sure that leave voters will firmly point the finger at our very own politicians here (George Osborne springs immediately to mind for one) regarding this claim - with them saying that it would pretty much happen straight after any leave vote was declared.
I would therefore claim you are barking up the wrong tree with this & it most certainly isn't directed at the EU directly.
I never bark up trees
Please go back and check the dialogue that I‘ve had with Chris to get the context.
Hint: It was about what was written on the ballot paper and what additional infos voters had.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
To the person who was trying to silence my opinion outside this arena and then asked me not to mention his name I will stand by my word not to mention names.
N24 you are being played. The method is simple. Gather as many people who have said something, anything, which is seen as an agreement then try to build a coalition to further a viewpoint which is nothing but corrosive and incapable of any form of diverse thought.…..
I am unsure for now of the intention of bringing up of my pointing out that I have been a political prisoner, a prisoner who was held only because I believed in people having the right to vote and that vote to be respected. Try it, I don’t think many could endure being beaten and tortured and taken out for mock execution with a gun to their head and even worse things for their family. I am unsure if this is an attack and only because I am unsure that I hold my temper. Please go through this experience and have the mental and physical scars and tell me if you then value a vote and that votes should be respected. You will then perhaps begin in some small way to understand why my belief cannot be silenced. Thankfully you in Europe know nothing of this (yet) but the first step comes when you allow your votes to be undermined and called racists or fools or other things simply for exercising your vote. Interestingly enough I am away from work ill for this past week because of some injuries from that time. They are a not nice reminder of of the importance of free votes, and I can just look in the mirror every time I need to be reminded at other times.
I ask every one here who has interest to go through my posts and see what I have said. I have already pointed out that the Brexit is the fault of the politicians of the UK. I have also pointed out many other things, including the decision was to leave. I look with great interest at the attempt to misinterpret things in order to further an agenda which is built only upon propaganda of its own. As we all know by know written words that fall on blind eyes are worthless. The main point to remember is that to dare to disagree makes me an enemy. This is indeed the stumbling block and the reason this debate will never advance beyond the trenches. The only positive is that it exposes the real extremists in this debate.
Some of us here must remember going forward that to debate with those who are not mature or mentally capable enough to accept the concept that people have different opinions means there is no point to their ‘arguments’ other than to argue for arguments sake.
But then again who am I? I am just a fool who does not walk the same path as the policially righteous.
Thank you all.
Of course people are allowed to have different opinions. You live in a EU member state (so far) and I live in a country with a trade treaty with the EU and we both have the right to have our own opinions and to express it. My opinion is that the Brexit referendum showed us that the majority of the British people don't want Britain to be a EU member state. The referendum told us nothing about how they want the relationship between the EU and Britain to be organised in the future. Nothing at all. The British politicians have failed so far to agree on what that relationship should be, and that's perhaps the most important reason why Britain is still in the EU. The other reason is of course the EU looking after their own interests in the negotiations, something any negotiating partner should do. I don't think leaving the EU automatically means leaving without a treaty, I urge you not to believe I don't believe in democracy or that I'm naive because of this. There's no reason to make this personal.
Brexit can't be compared to a country's fight to free themselves from an occupation or a colonial power.It's better compared to divorce. The UK has decided to divorce the EU. Now it's time for the divorce settelment. Who will have the custody of the children, who gets the house, what will the visiting rights be, who gets the car?
Higgins - to my knowledge, no one here has said that the promise of economic devastation was an EU tactic? I'm fairly sure that leave voters will firmly point the finger at our very own politicians here (George Osborne springs immediately to mind for one) regarding this claim - with them saying that it would pretty much happen straight after any leave vote was declared.
I would therefore claim you are barking up the wrong tree with this & it most certainly isn't directed at the EU directly.
I never bark up trees
Please go back and check the dialogue that I‘ve had with Chris to get the context.
Hint: It was about what was written on the ballot paper and what additional infos voters had.
What was written on the ballot paper was a simple remain or leave choice, the majority of the voters put an X in the leave box, and did so knowing there may or may not be some sort of deal, and with the information/doom mongering propoganda levelled at the electorate by both sides, let's not forget people chose to also vote remain despite all the promises/fanciful pots of gold. It goes both ways, I sincerely believe that people voted on the many multitude of issues that they personally felt, the voting British public are not as stupid and uneducated on the whole (though much idiocy is prevelant) on that basis the majority voted to leave.
None of the current debacle is the Eu's fault, our negotiations have not been as robust as they could have been (which could have alienated our EU counterparts) but nor have the EU been as obstinate and seeked to punish us as was widely reported they would. The true issue lies with members of parliament who were elected based on manifestos not delivering on their promises and seeking to frustrate the brexit process (which they are achieving) say what you like about the hard line Brexiteers like Rees Mogg, but his constituency know what he is about and still voted for him, in light of a deal he doesn't like he'd rather leave on time with no deal.... Some honour in that is there not?
It's the remainers who have masqueraded under a false pretence that are accountable for this political mess. If they didn't agree with their party manifestos and the referendum result they should have stepped down, and if Corbyn was so sure of a second referendum and seeking to remain then that should have been his manifesto! But they are too gutless and disinclined to leave behind the generous salaries and pensions to do that I'm afraid.
Yes, as pointed out by Thunderpussy, the concept of democracy is a simple one. One person one vote, whichever opinion gets the most votes wins, that opinion is acted upon. It is only (purposely) complicated by those who do not believe in the principle or see the power of the state or in this case the ‘project’ as supreme.
In the instance of Brexit, the concept of democracy is being dismantled not only from within but also as a result of foreign interference.
As with many form of tyranny (yes tyranny) it starts off slowly, so slowly that it is really unnoticeable. In this case the excuses are many but all have one aim – to overturn the result of the referendum. The real problem is not what happens when (if) Brexit is over turned, but what comes after. The precedent has then been set. The establishment in the UK knows it is able to ignore any votes it wishes to, people stop believing in the vote because they have seen that it is no longer effective.
The majority of British people who voted to leave will be held against their will in a political union which they do not want to be a part of.
As I understand it the ideological idea behind the EU is indeed to create a super state and Brexit has shone a light on this. I read about the founders of the EU and their mission to indeed create a 'united states of Europ'.. That is fine, just as long as the project has the support of the people, but from the early days it seems that this has not been the case. I offer a quote from one of the Founders of the EU project. This can be found anywhere:
Jean Monnet: ‘Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having economic purpose, but will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.’
It is something the EU zealots never make much mention of. I wonder why?
Chriscoop, I did not even see your post so do not fear, I was not getting angry with you.
N24 I do not think you are anti democratic and you will please point out where I made this accusation because I will remove it and also apologise if this is the case. You will be best to read what I said about you being played.
The British people voted to leave the EU I for one respect that decision. I took no part in that vote even though I could have because I felt it was not my decision to make. I would have supported the decision equally if it had been to remain and we had all anti democrats voices saying we should go against that decision.
It is really as simple as a belief in democracy or not.
In fact why don't we put it to the test? Who here believes in the democratic right for a person to vote and the winner of a vote - the majority - to have their opinion acted upon?
I do!
I wonder how many more will say yes or no. I think the silence might be deafening from some quarters!
Sounds a bit like the EU is this guy and you have just discovered his plot ) ) )
Joshua, unfortunately, the world is not as easy as you say, so let me ask the question again:
What was the vote exactly?
"Leaving the EU hard, unregulated and without a deal" was not written on the ballot paper
So why should leaving the EU not be the along the public vote?
I believe in democracy but I believe in honest elections.
If someone wins a vote by lying, misleading and cheating, there is not much democratic in it.
Having said this, the current problem is, that the people's vote was:
Leaving the EU
That could include
Leaving the EU without any kind of deal
Leaving the EU with deal A
Leaving the EU with deal B
and so on.
And there are 30% who say, it was "Leaving the EU without any kind of deal", but that was not on the paper.
Leaving the EU with a Deal could also be a possibility and that's why the current politicians are trying to figure out
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
+1 Joshua -{ we shall lose our rights gradually, drip by drip.
Others will make fun of your arguments and opinions , but
Everyone's opinion matters in a democracy, only in dictatorships
Are they ridiculed.......... ignored or overturned.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
"Leaving the EU hard, unregulated and without a deal" was not written on the ballot paper
So why should leaving the EU not be the along the public vote?
I believe in democracy but I believe in honest elections.
If someone wins a vote by lying, misleading and cheating, there is not much democratic in it.
Just my 2 cents
The vote was whether to remain in the EU or to leave the EU, the method of the uks withdrawal was not suggested, at that point it wasnt widely known how it would all play out as it was and still is uncharted territory.
As you yourself said, we elect politicians to deal with such matters, just because they have proved a disaster does not change the righteousness of the process.
Let's not lose that string but the extreme Brexiteers will tell you, that this kind of interpretation is just bending the rules and stealing the people's vote.
Not that I agree.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
N24 I do not think you are anti democratic and you will please point out where I made this accusation because I will remove it and also apologise if this is the case. You will be best to read what I said about you being played.
!
Thanks. I do think all of us has the best intentions and we're all democratically minded.
Let's not lose that string but the extreme Brexiteers will tell you, that this kind of interpretation is just bending the rules and stealing the people's vote.
Not that I agree.
How so? There was always going to be a negotiation, even the Brexiteers would agree with that, it's how those negotiations have gone that have displeased the hardliners.
I actually want the UK leaving without any deal.
I have enough of that nonsense and I am willing to take the bet, if the EU is suffering more or the UK. I know, who will suffer far more...
Leaving with a deal is not to my liking, but as a good democrat, I have to accept it.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I cannot reply properly because I was asked not to mention names! I gave my word! I always stand by my word!
Unfortunately the simplicity lies in one corner. The British people were lied to - true but conveniently forgetting to mention that they were lied to by both sides of the argument. The biggest lie of all of course was the fact that they were PROMISED that what ever they decided would be done.
I read and write English (badly) as a second language, even I can distinguish what was meant on the ballot paper. Leave or remain. But again this is already known and just another device with which to disrupt proceedings by those who really think that the UK should be staying in the EU. Leaving with a deal was not written on the ballot paper, so that cancels out the weak argumentivie point. But just to indulge the mischevous, from my point of view LEAVE said just that. To deal with or with out a deal.
I honestly think there are people who believe in democracy only when that democracy goes in their favour. At any other time democracy is a problem which needs to be solved. It is in evidence by the utter childishness of the circular argument and the nature of much of the supporting propaganda materiel.
Yes there are many variations of leaving the EU, but no variations for staying (unless you discount those who wish to go against the will of the people and reverse the vote). This is not the fault of the people but the politicians.
My point about EU federal ambitions is replied to with mockery. Perhaps I think I may have hit a nerve. It is very telling, perhaps more telling than others would even realise?
Why do we not explore that as a cause for the British to vote to leave instead of the stupid acusations of racism?
+1 Joshua -{ we shall lose our rights gradually, drip by drip.
Others will make fun of your arguments and opinions , but
Everyone's opinion matters in a democracy, only in dictatorships
Are they ridiculed.......... ignored or overturned.
It makes no difference to me if people make fun of my point of view. All it does is stregnthen them because it throws the spot light on the true nature of others!
Any man who is man enough to walk a mile in my journey is welcomed beside me, the ridicule of others are as of no importance because I am aware of who I am and what I have done. I leave trying to 'prove myself' to those who have never done it.
I hope SiCo realizes the gold mine he is sitting on just within this thread alone. One hundred of the best scriptwriters on the planet could not have possibly authored the drama, comedy and passion of this discourse.
To paraphrase the character whose name I have co-opted: May all your royalties be swiftly paid!
Leaving without a deal was also not on the ballot paper.
Joshua, you are avoiding the question and still blaming everybody who does not confirm to your interpretation of the vote.
As for ridiculing, I‘d say that TP is the King of ridicule and mockery here
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Comments
https://youtu.be/RkAbOGxDF6g
I've seen that clip, a lot recently, I think many feel
The same way.
https://youtu.be/EJ4t_3amr3M
Filling out a form to be an MP
Classic Blackadder
Queen Elizabeth the first
MPs haven't changed either.
I never bark up trees
Please go back and check the dialogue that I‘ve had with Chris to get the context.
Hint: It was about what was written on the ballot paper and what additional infos voters had.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Of course people are allowed to have different opinions. You live in a EU member state (so far) and I live in a country with a trade treaty with the EU and we both have the right to have our own opinions and to express it. My opinion is that the Brexit referendum showed us that the majority of the British people don't want Britain to be a EU member state. The referendum told us nothing about how they want the relationship between the EU and Britain to be organised in the future. Nothing at all. The British politicians have failed so far to agree on what that relationship should be, and that's perhaps the most important reason why Britain is still in the EU. The other reason is of course the EU looking after their own interests in the negotiations, something any negotiating partner should do. I don't think leaving the EU automatically means leaving without a treaty, I urge you not to believe I don't believe in democracy or that I'm naive because of this. There's no reason to make this personal.
Brexit can't be compared to a country's fight to free themselves from an occupation or a colonial power.It's better compared to divorce. The UK has decided to divorce the EU. Now it's time for the divorce settelment. Who will have the custody of the children, who gets the house, what will the visiting rights be, who gets the car?
What was written on the ballot paper was a simple remain or leave choice, the majority of the voters put an X in the leave box, and did so knowing there may or may not be some sort of deal, and with the information/doom mongering propoganda levelled at the electorate by both sides, let's not forget people chose to also vote remain despite all the promises/fanciful pots of gold. It goes both ways, I sincerely believe that people voted on the many multitude of issues that they personally felt, the voting British public are not as stupid and uneducated on the whole (though much idiocy is prevelant) on that basis the majority voted to leave.
None of the current debacle is the Eu's fault, our negotiations have not been as robust as they could have been (which could have alienated our EU counterparts) but nor have the EU been as obstinate and seeked to punish us as was widely reported they would. The true issue lies with members of parliament who were elected based on manifestos not delivering on their promises and seeking to frustrate the brexit process (which they are achieving) say what you like about the hard line Brexiteers like Rees Mogg, but his constituency know what he is about and still voted for him, in light of a deal he doesn't like he'd rather leave on time with no deal.... Some honour in that is there not?
It's the remainers who have masqueraded under a false pretence that are accountable for this political mess. If they didn't agree with their party manifestos and the referendum result they should have stepped down, and if Corbyn was so sure of a second referendum and seeking to remain then that should have been his manifesto! But they are too gutless and disinclined to leave behind the generous salaries and pensions to do that I'm afraid.
In the instance of Brexit, the concept of democracy is being dismantled not only from within but also as a result of foreign interference.
As with many form of tyranny (yes tyranny) it starts off slowly, so slowly that it is really unnoticeable. In this case the excuses are many but all have one aim – to overturn the result of the referendum. The real problem is not what happens when (if) Brexit is over turned, but what comes after. The precedent has then been set. The establishment in the UK knows it is able to ignore any votes it wishes to, people stop believing in the vote because they have seen that it is no longer effective.
The majority of British people who voted to leave will be held against their will in a political union which they do not want to be a part of.
As I understand it the ideological idea behind the EU is indeed to create a super state and Brexit has shone a light on this. I read about the founders of the EU and their mission to indeed create a 'united states of Europ'.. That is fine, just as long as the project has the support of the people, but from the early days it seems that this has not been the case. I offer a quote from one of the Founders of the EU project. This can be found anywhere:
Jean Monnet: ‘Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having economic purpose, but will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.’
It is something the EU zealots never make much mention of. I wonder why?
Chriscoop, I did not even see your post so do not fear, I was not getting angry with you.
N24 I do not think you are anti democratic and you will please point out where I made this accusation because I will remove it and also apologise if this is the case. You will be best to read what I said about you being played.
The British people voted to leave the EU I for one respect that decision. I took no part in that vote even though I could have because I felt it was not my decision to make. I would have supported the decision equally if it had been to remain and we had all anti democrats voices saying we should go against that decision.
It is really as simple as a belief in democracy or not.
In fact why don't we put it to the test? Who here believes in the democratic right for a person to vote and the winner of a vote - the majority - to have their opinion acted upon?
I do!
I wonder how many more will say yes or no. I think the silence might be deafening from some quarters!
Sounds a bit like the EU is this guy and you have just discovered his plot
Joshua, unfortunately, the world is not as easy as you say, so let me ask the question again:
What was the vote exactly?
"Leaving the EU hard, unregulated and without a deal" was not written on the ballot paper
So why should leaving the EU not be the along the public vote?
I believe in democracy but I believe in honest elections.
If someone wins a vote by lying, misleading and cheating, there is not much democratic in it.
Having said this, the current problem is, that the people's vote was:
Leaving the EU
That could include
Leaving the EU without any kind of deal
Leaving the EU with deal A
Leaving the EU with deal B
and so on.
And there are 30% who say, it was "Leaving the EU without any kind of deal", but that was not on the paper.
Leaving the EU with a Deal could also be a possibility and that's why the current politicians are trying to figure out
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Others will make fun of your arguments and opinions , but
Everyone's opinion matters in a democracy, only in dictatorships
Are they ridiculed.......... ignored or overturned.
As you yourself said, we elect politicians to deal with such matters, just because they have proved a disaster does not change the righteousness of the process.
Let's not lose that string but the extreme Brexiteers will tell you, that this kind of interpretation is just bending the rules and stealing the people's vote.
Not that I agree.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Thanks. I do think all of us has the best intentions and we're all democratically minded.
Leaving the EU with ......
Having your bottom smacked with a fresh haddock
A stag party's allocation of alcohol
In drag, singing " I've got to be me "
The difference is only some of us believe ALL votes
Should count not just those we agree with
I actually want the UK leaving without any deal.
I have enough of that nonsense and I am willing to take the bet, if the EU is suffering more or the UK. I know, who will suffer far more...
Leaving with a deal is not to my liking, but as a good democrat, I have to accept it.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Unfortunately the simplicity lies in one corner. The British people were lied to - true but conveniently forgetting to mention that they were lied to by both sides of the argument. The biggest lie of all of course was the fact that they were PROMISED that what ever they decided would be done.
I read and write English (badly) as a second language, even I can distinguish what was meant on the ballot paper. Leave or remain. But again this is already known and just another device with which to disrupt proceedings by those who really think that the UK should be staying in the EU. Leaving with a deal was not written on the ballot paper, so that cancels out the weak argumentivie point. But just to indulge the mischevous, from my point of view LEAVE said just that. To deal with or with out a deal.
I honestly think there are people who believe in democracy only when that democracy goes in their favour. At any other time democracy is a problem which needs to be solved. It is in evidence by the utter childishness of the circular argument and the nature of much of the supporting propaganda materiel.
Yes there are many variations of leaving the EU, but no variations for staying (unless you discount those who wish to go against the will of the people and reverse the vote). This is not the fault of the people but the politicians.
My point about EU federal ambitions is replied to with mockery. Perhaps I think I may have hit a nerve. It is very telling, perhaps more telling than others would even realise?
Why do we not explore that as a cause for the British to vote to leave instead of the stupid acusations of racism?
It makes no difference to me if people make fun of my point of view. All it does is stregnthen them because it throws the spot light on the true nature of others!
Any man who is man enough to walk a mile in my journey is welcomed beside me, the ridicule of others are as of no importance because I am aware of who I am and what I have done. I leave trying to 'prove myself' to those who have never done it.
To paraphrase the character whose name I have co-opted:
May all your royalties be swiftly paid!
{[]
Joshua, you are avoiding the question and still blaming everybody who does not confirm to your interpretation of the vote.
As for ridiculing, I‘d say that TP is the King of ridicule and mockery here
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Joshua, everyone is replied to with mockery on this thread. Do not take it personally.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Of course not, which is my point exactly.
" Aye, I can see .......
..... Perhaps you should lower the hem of your kilt ?"
Wait a minute - what did you say about Joshua's skirt?