Let's just remember the murder of Jo Cox. She was killed because she was pro Remain.
MPs have been offered police protection and those who are threatened are MPs who support Leaving with a Deal.*
Which side is shouting "Treason(ist)"?
Is it remain?
So, to me it's pretty clear from which side most of the hate comes.
Blaming Remain for the hate is like Donald Trump constantly complaining about the hate against him and moaning about "Angry Democrats".
*Yes, I know, Farage caught a Milkshake recently.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
We were promised we'd be leaving " With or Without" a deal.
Very simple, and easy to understand .
To say all hate is only coming from one direction ( a great band by
The way ) is also simplistic, so simplistic as to be Propaganda.
Or
Brexit supporters wear the black hats while
Remainers wear the white hats )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Yes, hate and sarcasm comes from both sides. Just look at all the sarcasms from TP alone .
I agree with Higgins that a re-election would be democratic and not undemocratic. I'm not sure it's a good idea, though. Is a re-election likely to lead to Britain leaving the ? That's the key question here. If it's not I don't think Britain and British democracy has anything to gain by calling for a new election.
I have to admit guys your idea of democracy, is very
Different to mine. I feel yours is very authoritarian .
Dictatorial even. more 1984 than 1776.
Once again this discussion goes round in circles,
No one has changed their minds, why do you think
A second referendum would change anything )
"Guys" - plural? I'm not saying Higgins is authoritrian (and I saw the emoji), but I have said several times I think Britain should leave the EU after the Brexit referendum and there shouldn't be a second referendum in this situation. Didn't you mean me by the "guys" or have you misunderstood my posts?
Loving the notion that the largest democratic vote ever in the UK - resulting in 17.4m “yes to leave” crosses placed in boxes - should now just be ignored ... so we can do it all over again! Words literally fail me.
OK let's put some facts into this debate, like them or not they are facts.
Fact, British voters by a significant majority voted on a remain or leave basis to leave the EU.
Fact. The two biggest political parties that represent the British people BOTH stood on a party manifesto to deliver leaving the EU.
Fact, Parliament is occupied by majoritively remain biased mps.
Fact, many remain mps represent majoritively leave constituencys and were elected on a manifesto that promised to uphold the democratic vote.
Fact, Brexit has not been delivered by Parliament because mps are voting in line with party politics and not the democratic vote on the referendum or the democratic vote in the general election where Party manifestos have been summarily ignored by the elected mps.
Fact, some mps have directly contravened the votes of their constituents to further their own cause, and no longer represent the constituency that voted for them, therefore create an undemocratic and untrustworthy atmosphere and apathy for the political system.
We can argue whether a deal or no deal is best, or whether the vote was a bad idea, hell even arguing if the EU is good or bad, but sat in the UK as a UK citizen what is obviously clear is that many mps are behaving in a narcissistic manner that is wholly undemocratic and totally self serving. The opposition has officially done 3 u turns on this matter amongst months of absolutely no brexit policy or direction while the tories have continued to destroy itself.. It's frustrating times for us brits that's for sure.
The old chestnut again.
Everybody who has a different opinion is not democratic and dictatorial 8-)
And propagandist.
Higgins, its a simple matter of fact that Brexit is not being progressed because some MPs are deliberately frustrating the process and defying the electorate, and that is the definition of undemocratic behaviour.
Your facts are well known, but the dilemma is, that along everyone, there are different interpretations about what „leaving the EU“ really means.
In our parliamentary system, the winning party/ies are running the government and need to get their own parliamentary majority. Blaming the opposition for not helping them if they don‘t manage to get an ‚own‘ majority falls a bit short.
Pretty sure in a Labour-led Parliament, the Tories would do very much the same and not support the leading party with their votes.
I‘d like to ask about your opinion about the 50% of Tory MPs, who
- where running on the party programme that promised to deliver Brexit
- and voted everything down that included a Brexit with a Deal
- because they want a Hard Brexit only.
Isn‘t that behaviour deplorable to the same degree because they have promised to deliver Brexit but voted it down because in their view it was not radical enough - but as a result have failed to deliver the Brexit which they have promised and that party has.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I'd usually edit my previous post and add the following, but then people would pop up and assume something sinister from it:
Some additional thought about the claim that the opposition was not being "honest" by voting against the Brexit Deal proposals:
As said, it's not the opposition's job to supply a PM with a majority in general, but let's keep in mind how this all begun:
A conservative (Tory) PM David Cameron started the Brexit discussion by promising a Referendum in order to win an election.
He thought very little about the opposition (rightly so), that was for various and very selfish reasons.
That went pretty bad in the end and he had to resign.
After the Brexit vote, the conservative (Tory) PM Theresa May called out new parliamantary elections immediately because she thought that she could benefit from the situation and decimate the opposition by using the "right point of time"and riding on that wave (I need a strong majority for the Brexit negotiations with the EU). Again, very little consideration for the opposition.
Very hardball politics to get the most of the public vote for their own.
After this all went badly, I have some sympathy for the opposition not willing to help the conservatives out in that situation under these circumstances to get a majority when their own majority fails.
It's a bit like your neighbor trying to take away your house and your nice car when you are short on money by lowballing you heavily and then he asks you to help him out of a financial trouble because he doesn't want to sell his house and car a bit later.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Cameron did not have to resign. He did not agree with the public's majority decision to leave the EU so like a spineless coont he legged it. This was his one opportunity to act on behalf of the people and would have been seen as a strong PM for doing so but he bottled it plain and simple and that is how he will be remembered if at all? in the history books and personally the Donkey lays the whole current economical mess because that is what it is firmly at his "yellow" door! X-(
While I universally agree on the ‚spineless‘ part of Cameron (Johnson comes to mind, too), I would respectfully disagree with Donk in this case.
Cameron was running as a remainer - the referendum was of another result and he resigned.
I never believed that it was a good idea to have a PM May, who ran with a „Remainer“ hat on, and after the referendum suddenly changed to „Brexit“ hat and acted „on the behalf of the people“.
It just doesn‘t work like that and May is a prime example for that.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I respect Higgins opinion on this one but the message Cameron sent to the UK, the EU and indeed the world is "fook the people". We had spoken & he chose to ignore it. Granted he probably thought the UK would not vote to leave the EU but vote we did and our Government should have acted to represent us and show a strong front but he/they didn't which pretty much fooked the UK economy overnight. We went from something like a $1.55 exchange rate to around $1.30 within a matter of weeks! X-(
I've had an ongoing discussion with Sir Miles and many of the Brexiteers in UK politics never get tired to stress out, that the forecasted downfall of the UK economy has not happened in the last 3 years and take this as a base to discredit many experts having scaremongered on a wrong basis.
The weak Pound exchange rate is usually used to explain that this is an advantage, because it makes industrial products less expensive and so more competitive.
My take is, that most of the predictions where exaggerated so far because basically nothing has happened really yet.
Depending on which political camp you are in, people say that prices have risen since the Referendum but not to a worrying degree.
I still see a much severe things happening, when the UK really pull out without a deal but many Brexiteers will dispute this as well.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I respect Higgins opinion on this one but the message Cameron sent to the UK, the EU and indeed the world is "fook the people". We had spoken & he chose to ignore it.
And here I disagree with Sir Donk.
You had spoken and Cameron accepted it and took the necessary steps and resigned.
Farage and Johnson for example would have heavily criticized him for staying and thus ignoring the vote
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,923Chief of Staff
While the above is true, we‘ve had these discussions right after the Brexit vote was out over months.
That‘s why I have chosen ‚I‘ve had‘ and not ‚I have‘
FAKE NEWS yourself
Your use of the words “I’ve had an ongoing discussion...” in this instance can also give the impression that the ‘dialogue’ is still current...it’s not.
Furthermore the ‘discussion’ certainly wasn’t over “months” at all... 8-)
I see you are using the ‘Trump rule’ of never admitting, never backing down and (as you have been caught) doubling down in your attack and escalating.
I know that you are brilliant in dissecting and chopping down every possible comment to a sense that it looks bad in your view.
- I have not „been caught“
- We‘ve had the discussions about the economic outfall of the Brexit vote
-Those discussions happened over some time.
- And it‘s not important for the content of my explanation or my original post if it was weeks or months.
You are splitting hairs because you have nothing substancial to say except that you think you are smart and „find something smelly“
Your usual modus operandum, nothing new
I know that behind the lines you are very active in this topic and against me. Carry on!
Everybody can read back that we disagreed about the economical outfall of the Brexit vote - over a long time- and with that I‘ll refer to what I have told you in private and am keeping it that way.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
There was discussion betwwen the two of you about Brexit, I think both agree on that at least.
This discussion is about semantics. Isn't the first topic the better one?
Comments
MPs have been offered police protection and those who are threatened are MPs who support Leaving with a Deal.*
Which side is shouting "Treason(ist)"?
Is it remain?
So, to me it's pretty clear from which side most of the hate comes.
Blaming Remain for the hate is like Donald Trump constantly complaining about the hate against him and moaning about "Angry Democrats".
*Yes, I know, Farage caught a Milkshake recently.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Very simple, and easy to understand .
To say all hate is only coming from one direction ( a great band by
The way ) is also simplistic, so simplistic as to be Propaganda.
Or
Brexit supporters wear the black hats while
Remainers wear the white hats
I agree with Higgins that a re-election would be democratic and not undemocratic. I'm not sure it's a good idea, though. Is a re-election likely to lead to Britain leaving the ? That's the key question here. If it's not I don't think Britain and British democracy has anything to gain by calling for a new election.
Different to mine. I feel yours is very authoritarian .
Dictatorial even.
Once again this discussion goes round in circles,
No one has changed their minds, why do you think
A second referendum would change anything
Everybody who has a different opinion is not democratic and dictatorial 8-)
And propagandist.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The three cornerstones of power, headed by the greatest brains in the world.
Correction: Political brains
"Guys" - plural? I'm not saying Higgins is authoritrian (and I saw the emoji), but I have said several times I think Britain should leave the EU after the Brexit referendum and there shouldn't be a second referendum in this situation. Didn't you mean me by the "guys" or have you misunderstood my posts?
Not allowing other opinions is very authoritarian and dictatorial.
Better point out this is in response to Higgins post.
Fact, British voters by a significant majority voted on a remain or leave basis to leave the EU.
Fact. The two biggest political parties that represent the British people BOTH stood on a party manifesto to deliver leaving the EU.
Fact, Parliament is occupied by majoritively remain biased mps.
Fact, many remain mps represent majoritively leave constituencys and were elected on a manifesto that promised to uphold the democratic vote.
Fact, Brexit has not been delivered by Parliament because mps are voting in line with party politics and not the democratic vote on the referendum or the democratic vote in the general election where Party manifestos have been summarily ignored by the elected mps.
Fact, some mps have directly contravened the votes of their constituents to further their own cause, and no longer represent the constituency that voted for them, therefore create an undemocratic and untrustworthy atmosphere and apathy for the political system.
We can argue whether a deal or no deal is best, or whether the vote was a bad idea, hell even arguing if the EU is good or bad, but sat in the UK as a UK citizen what is obviously clear is that many mps are behaving in a narcissistic manner that is wholly undemocratic and totally self serving. The opposition has officially done 3 u turns on this matter amongst months of absolutely no brexit policy or direction while the tories have continued to destroy itself.. It's frustrating times for us brits that's for sure.
Higgins, its a simple matter of fact that Brexit is not being progressed because some MPs are deliberately frustrating the process and defying the electorate, and that is the definition of undemocratic behaviour.
And what a corker it was too.
Your facts are well known, but the dilemma is, that along everyone, there are different interpretations about what „leaving the EU“ really means.
In our parliamentary system, the winning party/ies are running the government and need to get their own parliamentary majority. Blaming the opposition for not helping them if they don‘t manage to get an ‚own‘ majority falls a bit short.
Pretty sure in a Labour-led Parliament, the Tories would do very much the same and not support the leading party with their votes.
I‘d like to ask about your opinion about the 50% of Tory MPs, who
- where running on the party programme that promised to deliver Brexit
- and voted everything down that included a Brexit with a Deal
- because they want a Hard Brexit only.
Isn‘t that behaviour deplorable to the same degree because they have promised to deliver Brexit but voted it down because in their view it was not radical enough - but as a result have failed to deliver the Brexit which they have promised and that party has.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Some additional thought about the claim that the opposition was not being "honest" by voting against the Brexit Deal proposals:
As said, it's not the opposition's job to supply a PM with a majority in general, but let's keep in mind how this all begun:
A conservative (Tory) PM David Cameron started the Brexit discussion by promising a Referendum in order to win an election.
He thought very little about the opposition (rightly so), that was for various and very selfish reasons.
That went pretty bad in the end and he had to resign.
After the Brexit vote, the conservative (Tory) PM Theresa May called out new parliamantary elections immediately because she thought that she could benefit from the situation and decimate the opposition by using the "right point of time"and riding on that wave (I need a strong majority for the Brexit negotiations with the EU). Again, very little consideration for the opposition.
Very hardball politics to get the most of the public vote for their own.
After this all went badly, I have some sympathy for the opposition not willing to help the conservatives out in that situation under these circumstances to get a majority when their own majority fails.
It's a bit like your neighbor trying to take away your house and your nice car when you are short on money by lowballing you heavily and then he asks you to help him out of a financial trouble because he doesn't want to sell his house and car a bit later.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Cameron was running as a remainer - the referendum was of another result and he resigned.
I never believed that it was a good idea to have a PM May, who ran with a „Remainer“ hat on, and after the referendum suddenly changed to „Brexit“ hat and acted „on the behalf of the people“.
It just doesn‘t work like that and May is a prime example for that.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The weak Pound exchange rate is usually used to explain that this is an advantage, because it makes industrial products less expensive and so more competitive.
My take is, that most of the predictions where exaggerated so far because basically nothing has happened really yet.
Depending on which political camp you are in, people say that prices have risen since the Referendum but not to a worrying degree.
I still see a much severe things happening, when the UK really pull out without a deal but many Brexiteers will dispute this as well.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
And here I disagree with Sir Donk.
You had spoken and Cameron accepted it and took the necessary steps and resigned.
Farage and Johnson for example would have heavily criticized him for staying and thus ignoring the vote
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Fake news!
You have refused to have any dialogue with me for months on any subject at all - and made it VERY clear you wish never to speak with me again!
That‘s why I have chosen ‚I‘ve had‘ and not ‚I have‘
FAKE NEWS yourself
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Your use of the words “I’ve had an ongoing discussion...” in this instance can also give the impression that the ‘dialogue’ is still current...it’s not.
Furthermore the ‘discussion’ certainly wasn’t over “months” at all... 8-)
I see you are using the ‘Trump rule’ of never admitting, never backing down and (as you have been caught) doubling down in your attack and escalating.
- I have not „been caught“
- We‘ve had the discussions about the economic outfall of the Brexit vote
-Those discussions happened over some time.
- And it‘s not important for the content of my explanation or my original post if it was weeks or months.
You are splitting hairs because you have nothing substancial to say except that you think you are smart and „find something smelly“
Your usual modus operandum, nothing new
I know that behind the lines you are very active in this topic and against me. Carry on!
Everybody can read back that we disagreed about the economical outfall of the Brexit vote - over a long time- and with that I‘ll refer to what I have told you in private and am keeping it that way.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
This discussion is about semantics. Isn't the first topic the better one?
He dragged the discussion to an explanation about a sub-sub sentence of mine.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
How can you know something that isn’t true? ?:)
I would demand proof but that would be absolutely futile as you don’t have any - as it doesn’t exist
It’s just more misdirection and lies from you! Oh Higgins, what have you become?