Besides ... we are all too busy shouting about having a People's Vote now that the new EU President has been elected having just about scraped in to 'power' in a 1 horse race ... don't you just love democracy? )
This kind of over-simplification is part of the Brexit issue and a reason why populism is just that!
The European Council (which represents the democratic elected Heads of States) has the right to propose a candidate for the European Commission (There is no EU "President" by the way).
The European Parliament (elected by public vote 1 month ago) then votes for or against the proposed candidate.
If they vote against, the EU Concil will propose another candidate - so it's hardly a one-horse race. That claim is just silly (and I am being polite here).
That process has been chosen to balance out national interests (represented by the EU Council) and supra-national people's interest (represented by the members of the EU parliament).
Before mocking about the lack of democracy in the EU, I suggest that you question the way how the soon future PM of your own country is chosen.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Hmmm interesting ... if there is no President of the EU Commission as such, why does Jean-Claude Juncker's own twitter page refer to himself as just that?! ?:) ... he mustn't have got the memo.
Anyway - we previously (respectfully) agreed via PM not to engage on here so will leave that there, however did find that comment interesting.
Besides ... we are all too busy shouting about having a People's Vote now that the new EU President has been elected having just about scraped in to 'power' in a 1 horse race ... don't you just love democracy? )
Juncker is President of the EU Commission - an EU President (as you have called him or her) does not exist!
This kind of over-simplification is part of the Brexit issue and a reason why populism is just that!
By the same token though Higgins, posts like #1,383 quoting Timmermans mocking the UK just add fuel to populism and do little to encourage a favourable view of the EU. There are many who voted to remain in the EU but are starting to wonder if we are not better off outside it. The EU's draconian approach to the UK - before we have even left - and Timmerman's view that "For Germany the EU is much, much more than a market, it’s their destiny" just underscore this view.
If you look a bit into it, Timmermans' comment was referring to the beginning of the Brexit Negotiations.
Timmermans is a lot, but you should not call him a populist. He was downright voicing his impression how the Brexit negotiations have started and how the Brexiteers and David Davis had no plan.
Please watch the short video from the quoted article - it becomes very clear what the context is and what the intention is.
We've had this impression (nobody had a plan but everything substancial has been belittled as scaremongering) since campaining for the vote has started and obviously even after the decision, nobody had a plan how to move forward. That is populism.
The draconian approach of the EU I'd kindly ask you to explain - I just want to remind Juncker's words prior to the last extension:
"Nobody will be kicked out of the EU by us".
And actually, you should more be worried about the view about the UK government and how little it encourages people.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Apologies - I meant that Timmerman's comment adds fuel to the fire of populists such as Farage.
I don't read papers but I do read the BBC - this article appeared today which suggest the EC's Secretary General Martin Selmayr took a different viewpoint to Juncker's, and this is the draconian approach I referred to:
I can't find the draconian approach by Sedlmayr in your interesting article.
Point 1 confirms Timmermans point of view: 1. The UK had no plan for Brexit
I see Brexit as a divorce negotiation and Sedlmayr being the advocate for one party.
Not everything that the advocate suggests is approved by their client who holds the decision of power.
But I would want to complete your half-quote about the EU being Germany's desitny. The most important part is that:
>>It's their destiny,it's not revisiting the horrors of history so even the car industry itself understands that this is fundamentally more importantthan selling cars to the United Kingdom<<
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
But I would want to complete your half-quote about the EU being Germany's desitny. The most important part is that:
>>It's their destiny, it's not revisiting the horrors of history so even the car industry itself understands that this is fundamentally more importantthan selling cars to the United Kingdom<<
If a United EU destiny is 'fundamentally more important than selling cars to the United kingdom' then why is the Backstop so central to the EU's position?
From the BBC article:
" ... Talking to the BBC, the former Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab, sums up their fears:
"The idea that you could leave the EU, be successful and demonstrate that the EU perhaps wasn't all it was cut out to be was for them the thing that made [the EU] the most nervous. ..."
Raab's predecessor David Davis agrees with this position:
"They needed a lever which put us in the wrong and them in the right, I think that's the way they saw it. [With] the Irish border there's a strong political, moral, sentimental argument... based on fiction really, but nevertheless that's how it's used."
In other words the backstop was as much about trade as it was about peace. "
We are now switching gears from why the EU is so important for germans to the backstop.
As far as I know, the Republic of Ireland had serious concerns that during the parting process, the border to Northern Ireland could be raised up again. It was a central promise to Ireland, that there will be no physical border after Brexit.
I personally see the bad days of the conflict coming up again if there is a border.
Another aspect for sure is an economic.
UK wants to leave the Union, so they will lose the trade privileges with the EU.
The EU certainly will not allow that the common market is undermined by an open border in Ireland and the phantasies of a UK tax haven after Brexit are certainly not reassuring that this will not happen.
It‘s unimaginable that UK products that don‘t comply to EU rules ( ergo are cheaper to produce) will be smuggled into the EU thru a big hole.
That backstop is using as leverage is pure fiction. Nobody has solved this dilemma, so backstop was the only possible solution unless the UK are willing to give up NI and place it into the EU or Ireland would become a part of the UK
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I am selling products from China EU-wide.
I am paying huge expenses in duty (6%) and tax (19-23%) when I am selling those items.
Many chinese sellers sell via the UK and flood the European market while not paying a penny for duty ( there is a special clause in one of the trade contracts between HK and the UK) and many don‘t pay taxes as well.
That situation will get far worse, if there is a giant hole in the border of the common market in Ireland because everybody and his dog will abuse it.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Just another example how populists in general, and the future PM work and how UK politicians still follow the pattern to unfairly rant about the EU. Fairness and such goes both ways.
Last Wednesday, Johnson was holding up a plastic-wrapped kipper, stating that he has rec eived it from a fishsmoker from the Isle of Man saying:
"After decades of sending them through the post like this he has had his costs massively increased by Brussels bureaucrats who are insisting that each kipper must be accompanied by a plastic ice pillow"
“Pointless, pointless, expensive, environmentally damaging ‘elf and safety’,” Johnson added
The EU was quick to reply:
“The case described by Mr Johnson falls outside the scope of the EU legislation and it’s purely a UK national competence, so I hope this is clear and the rules must be checked with the national authorities"
Additionally the Isle of Man holds neither membership nor associate membership of the European Union, and lies outside the European Economic Area (EEA).
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
The Isle of Man isn't part of the UK either, though it has to follow EU and UK regulations. The regulations about the plastic ice pillow came from the UK and not the EU. So Johnson was wrong about that.
However, I imagine by tomorrow that Johnson will have stitched Hunt up like a kipper.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Yes, and if that fisherman wants to sell his product to the UK after Brexit, he will have to use the chilled pillow.
If he wants to send to the EU after a Brexit, he will not.
I was trying to highlight, how the EU is still used by UK politicians for explaining everything that goes wrong in the country (and as an example of how much Johnson cares about facts).
And if everything is going arses up in the UK after a Hard Brexit, it will be the EU‘s fault because they did not cater to the Brexiteers wishes.
And if Hard Brexit is being whistled off, it will be the EU‘s fault, because they kept the UK hostage and did „ not allow Brexit to happen“
And anything inbetween, it will be the EU‘s fault still.
You can‘t win an argument with populists because they have other goals than following facts and serving the people.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I saw an interesting definition of populist the other day: When a politician or a party claim they alone represent the people, and the entire population is rarely seen as "the People". I think it's an interesting definition, but it probably fits Nationalism better.
People love to put Labels on people ... or signs with " Kick Me " on people's backs.
In Political news Jo Swinson is the new leader of the Lib Dems. Would they be a
Populist party ? although they must have been annoyed no TV company was
interested in televising any of their Leader Debates )
As far as fishermen go, the British fishermen have been well and truly screwed by
the EU for years.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
A French or German fisherman will confirm that their business has not really increased of the last decades but it has more to do with sustainability than EU bureaucrat sadism.
It's far more complex than saying „The EU screwed them“
And before the moaners come up with the „UK seas for UK fishermen“ let‘s be reminded that UK companies hire their (cheap) staff from an EU wide pool of professionals.
And after a Hard Brexit, UK fishermen may be confronted by an armada of EU ships, that empty the seas before the fish are reaching UKs 12 mile zone and the UK fish may not be fresh anymore when it reaches EU consumers because of border checks.
As said, it‘s all far more complex then „freeing UK fishermen from the evil EU and everything gets better after Brexit“
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
A French or German fisherman will confirm that their business has not really increased of the last decades but it has more to do with sustainability than EU bureaucrat sadism.
It's far more complex than saying „The EU screwed them“
And before the moaners come up with the „UK seas for UK fishermen“ let‘s be reminded that UK companies hire their (cheap) staff from an EU wide pool of professionals.
And after a Hard Brexit, UK fishermen may be confronted by an armada of EU ships, that empty the seas before the fish are reaching UKs 12 mile zone and the UK fish may not be fresh anymore when it reaches EU consumers because of border checks.
As said, it‘s all far more complex then „freeing UK fishermen from the evil EU and everything gets better after Brexit“
I suggest you have a look at the Factortame series of cases to fully appreciate why the UK voted by a majority to leave the EU. In that series of cases the House of Lords were forced to disapply two parts of the Merchant Shipping Act 1988 as they were in conflict with EC law. The doctrine of the supremacy of EC law over national UK law was applied. It was the main reason why I voted to Leave. When a body like the EU trumps sovereign UK law to that extent it should be clear that membership of that body is no longer compatible with the constitutional principle of parliamentary sovereignty. In other words, it is important that we should be free to make our own laws in our own country and for them to apply without being impeded by another body.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
When you team up with other countries, international agreements supreme national law.
It happens always and everywhere - Italy's national law is trumped by EU law, France's national law can not overrule EU law and so on.
Remember the conflict over scallops in France last year?
France's national law does not allow French fishermen to harvest them in certain months.
But according to EU law, UK fishermen were allowed to pick them up - so EU law was stronger then national French law.
And if the UK want to continue trading with the EU, their product must comply with EU laws, otherwise it can't be sold to the EU.
And a potential trade deal with the US or any other country will limit and dominate your national laws and regulations.
That system of supremacy starts on a very small level:
- local law is being overruled by town law
- town law is trumped by county law
- county law is overruled by national law
- national law is overruled by international law and agreements.
So, it's an illusion that after Brexit, you will be "free to make our own laws in our own country and for them to apply without being impeded by another body".
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The Clowns are taking over the circus :v
It just shows how badly conservative parties have been hijacked by libertarian billionaire populists who have nothing to do with serving their own people and keep freedom and democracy alive.
I see another „tax Cut“ which will make the rich more rich and let the poor people pay for the deficit which is then amassed.
The „stimulating economy and it pays for itself by economic growth“ fairytale will be soon told.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I think that whoever wins a contest like that we have to give them a sporting chance, do we not? They deserve a chance to prove themselves and shouldn't be written off from the very start. They should be given at least the first one hundred days to make their mark and that will take us up to the legal Brexit leaving date of 31 October 2019. After that it will be fair game to judge how effective they have been, or otherwise.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Clown Boris had enough time in several offices to demonstrate exactly who is is and what he is.
Of course one can't expect everyone to give him the grace that would be given to any other new prime minister, but there it is. That is what comes from the pessimism and closed minds that make up a percentage of the electorate.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Comments
The European Council (which represents the democratic elected Heads of States) has the right to propose a candidate for the European Commission (There is no EU "President" by the way).
The European Parliament (elected by public vote 1 month ago) then votes for or against the proposed candidate.
If they vote against, the EU Concil will propose another candidate - so it's hardly a one-horse race. That claim is just silly (and I am being polite here).
That process has been chosen to balance out national interests (represented by the EU Council) and supra-national people's interest (represented by the members of the EU parliament).
Before mocking about the lack of democracy in the EU, I suggest that you question the way how the soon future PM of your own country is chosen.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Anyway - we previously (respectfully) agreed via PM not to engage on here so will leave that there, however did find that comment interesting.
Juncker is President of the EU Commission - an EU President (as you have called him or her) does not exist!
Really? Have we? Looks like you again don't have your facts right!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
By the same token though Higgins, posts like #1,383 quoting Timmermans mocking the UK just add fuel to populism and do little to encourage a favourable view of the EU. There are many who voted to remain in the EU but are starting to wonder if we are not better off outside it. The EU's draconian approach to the UK - before we have even left - and Timmerman's view that "For Germany the EU is much, much more than a market, it’s their destiny" just underscore this view.
Timmermans is a lot, but you should not call him a populist. He was downright voicing his impression how the Brexit negotiations have started and how the Brexiteers and David Davis had no plan.
Please watch the short video from the quoted article - it becomes very clear what the context is and what the intention is.
We've had this impression (nobody had a plan but everything substancial has been belittled as scaremongering) since campaining for the vote has started and obviously even after the decision, nobody had a plan how to move forward. That is populism.
The draconian approach of the EU I'd kindly ask you to explain - I just want to remind Juncker's words prior to the last extension:
"Nobody will be kicked out of the EU by us".
And actually, you should more be worried about the view about the UK government and how little it encourages people.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I don't read papers but I do read the BBC - this article appeared today which suggest the EC's Secretary General Martin Selmayr took a different viewpoint to Juncker's, and this is the draconian approach I referred to:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49008826
Point 1 confirms Timmermans point of view: 1. The UK had no plan for Brexit
I see Brexit as a divorce negotiation and Sedlmayr being the advocate for one party.
Not everything that the advocate suggests is approved by their client who holds the decision of power.
But I would want to complete your half-quote about the EU being Germany's desitny. The most important part is that:
>>It's their destiny, it's not revisiting the horrors of history so even the car industry itself understands that this is fundamentally more important than selling cars to the United Kingdom<<
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
"Brexit is like being flashed at in the park, I don't care if it's
Hard or Soft, I just want it to go away ! "
Another interesting point The Draconians were the villians
in Buck Rogers in the 25th century
If a United EU destiny is 'fundamentally more important than selling cars to the United kingdom' then why is the Backstop so central to the EU's position?
From the BBC article:
" ... Talking to the BBC, the former Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab, sums up their fears:
"The idea that you could leave the EU, be successful and demonstrate that the EU perhaps wasn't all it was cut out to be was for them the thing that made [the EU] the most nervous. ..."
Raab's predecessor David Davis agrees with this position:
"They needed a lever which put us in the wrong and them in the right, I think that's the way they saw it. [With] the Irish border there's a strong political, moral, sentimental argument... based on fiction really, but nevertheless that's how it's used."
In other words the backstop was as much about trade as it was about peace. "
As far as I know, the Republic of Ireland had serious concerns that during the parting process, the border to Northern Ireland could be raised up again. It was a central promise to Ireland, that there will be no physical border after Brexit.
I personally see the bad days of the conflict coming up again if there is a border.
Another aspect for sure is an economic.
UK wants to leave the Union, so they will lose the trade privileges with the EU.
The EU certainly will not allow that the common market is undermined by an open border in Ireland and the phantasies of a UK tax haven after Brexit are certainly not reassuring that this will not happen.
It‘s unimaginable that UK products that don‘t comply to EU rules ( ergo are cheaper to produce) will be smuggled into the EU thru a big hole.
That backstop is using as leverage is pure fiction. Nobody has solved this dilemma, so backstop was the only possible solution unless the UK are willing to give up NI and place it into the EU or Ireland would become a part of the UK
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I am selling products from China EU-wide.
I am paying huge expenses in duty (6%) and tax (19-23%) when I am selling those items.
Many chinese sellers sell via the UK and flood the European market while not paying a penny for duty ( there is a special clause in one of the trade contracts between HK and the UK) and many don‘t pay taxes as well.
That situation will get far worse, if there is a giant hole in the border of the common market in Ireland because everybody and his dog will abuse it.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Last Wednesday, Johnson was holding up a plastic-wrapped kipper, stating that he has rec eived it from a fishsmoker from the Isle of Man saying:
"After decades of sending them through the post like this he has had his costs massively increased by Brussels bureaucrats who are insisting that each kipper must be accompanied by a plastic ice pillow"
“Pointless, pointless, expensive, environmentally damaging ‘elf and safety’,” Johnson added
The EU was quick to reply:
“The case described by Mr Johnson falls outside the scope of the EU legislation and it’s purely a UK national competence, so I hope this is clear and the rules must be checked with the national authorities"
Additionally the Isle of Man holds neither membership nor associate membership of the European Union, and lies outside the European Economic Area (EEA).
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/18/boris-johnson-claims-about-kippers-fishy-brussels-says
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
However, I imagine by tomorrow that Johnson will have stitched Hunt up like a kipper.
If he wants to send to the EU after a Brexit, he will not.
I was trying to highlight, how the EU is still used by UK politicians for explaining everything that goes wrong in the country (and as an example of how much Johnson cares about facts).
And if everything is going arses up in the UK after a Hard Brexit, it will be the EU‘s fault because they did not cater to the Brexiteers wishes.
And if Hard Brexit is being whistled off, it will be the EU‘s fault, because they kept the UK hostage and did „ not allow Brexit to happen“
And anything inbetween, it will be the EU‘s fault still.
You can‘t win an argument with populists because they have other goals than following facts and serving the people.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
In Political news Jo Swinson is the new leader of the Lib Dems. Would they be a
Populist party ?
interested in televising any of their Leader Debates
As far as fishermen go, the British fishermen have been well and truly screwed by
the EU for years.
It's far more complex than saying „The EU screwed them“
And before the moaners come up with the „UK seas for UK fishermen“ let‘s be reminded that UK companies hire their (cheap) staff from an EU wide pool of professionals.
And after a Hard Brexit, UK fishermen may be confronted by an armada of EU ships, that empty the seas before the fish are reaching UKs 12 mile zone and the UK fish may not be fresh anymore when it reaches EU consumers because of border checks.
As said, it‘s all far more complex then „freeing UK fishermen from the evil EU and everything gets better after Brexit“
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Perfectly run
It‘s give and take and very complex because everybody‘s needs have to be considered.
Too complex for a populist world of black and white
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I suggest you have a look at the Factortame series of cases to fully appreciate why the UK voted by a majority to leave the EU. In that series of cases the House of Lords were forced to disapply two parts of the Merchant Shipping Act 1988 as they were in conflict with EC law. The doctrine of the supremacy of EC law over national UK law was applied. It was the main reason why I voted to Leave. When a body like the EU trumps sovereign UK law to that extent it should be clear that membership of that body is no longer compatible with the constitutional principle of parliamentary sovereignty. In other words, it is important that we should be free to make our own laws in our own country and for them to apply without being impeded by another body.
When you team up with other countries, international agreements supreme national law.
It happens always and everywhere - Italy's national law is trumped by EU law, France's national law can not overrule EU law and so on.
Remember the conflict over scallops in France last year?
France's national law does not allow French fishermen to harvest them in certain months.
But according to EU law, UK fishermen were allowed to pick them up - so EU law was stronger then national French law.
And if the UK want to continue trading with the EU, their product must comply with EU laws, otherwise it can't be sold to the EU.
And a potential trade deal with the US or any other country will limit and dominate your national laws and regulations.
That system of supremacy starts on a very small level:
- local law is being overruled by town law
- town law is trumped by county law
- county law is overruled by national law
- national law is overruled by international law and agreements.
So, it's an illusion that after Brexit, you will be "free to make our own laws in our own country and for them to apply without being impeded by another body".
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The Clowns are taking over the circus :v
It just shows how badly conservative parties have been hijacked by libertarian billionaire populists who have nothing to do with serving their own people and keep freedom and democracy alive.
I see another „tax Cut“ which will make the rich more rich and let the poor people pay for the deficit which is then amassed.
The „stimulating economy and it pays for itself by economic growth“ fairytale will be soon told.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Can't wait for the excuses, people didn't know what they
Were voting for etc
I think that whoever wins a contest like that we have to give them a sporting chance, do we not? They deserve a chance to prove themselves and shouldn't be written off from the very start. They should be given at least the first one hundred days to make their mark and that will take us up to the legal Brexit leaving date of 31 October 2019. After that it will be fair game to judge how effective they have been, or otherwise.
Clown Boris had enough time in several offices to demonstrate exactly who is is and what he is.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Of course one can't expect everyone to give him the grace that would be given to any other new prime minister, but there it is. That is what comes from the pessimism and closed minds that make up a percentage of the electorate.