The ardent Remainers who don't understand how democracy works or accept it (unless it goes their way of course) is what is truly pathetic. That is what is holding Brexit back and the whole country back. It's time to move on and accept the result of the biggest democratic vote in British history. What more can the Leave side give to those who refuse to accept how a democratic vote works? There isn't going to be a second referendum. That needs to be accepted by the Remain side, over three years on. We need to unite as a country and try to make a success of Brexit.
It's not that simple. The Brexit referendum process was hugely flawed in my opinion. A referendum question should be very clear and precise. Instead people were asked if they wanted the UK to remain in the EU or do something else. "Something else" got the most votes. That could mean anything from a hard Brexit, a trade deal only, an EEA membership, May's deal and probably a lot of other things. That referendum almost had to end in chaos after the Brexit side won. The proper way to do it is what solution has the most support in the people and Parliament (speaking to the party leaders at a minimum), then negotiate with the EU. Only then it's time for a referendum. The people get a clear choice. Referendums results should be open to as little interpretation as possible, but what you got was a result that was open to every intepretation exept Remain. Ironically that leads to exactly that, or it has done so far.
Another " They didn't know what they were voting for "
Argument the question was very simple
Remain or leave ?
( it was also made clear by the remain side that
Leaving meant leaving " everything " ) ) although
As already pointed out only the Brexit side told lies,
The Remain side just made predictions. )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
I'm sure many of the people who voted for Brexit had very clear ideas about what they wanted, but leaving the result so open for interpretation was a huge mistake. It's not that Remain politicians don't want or understand Democracy, they were simply given too much leeway.
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
I'm sure many of the people who voted for Brexit had very clear ideas about what they wanted, but leaving the result so open for interpretation was a huge mistake. It's not that Remain politicians don't want or understand Democracy, they were simply given too much leeway.
That's not really the fault of the UK electorate though, is it? Blame the political Establishment that thought it was going to wing it and win yet another referendum (after the ones in 2011 and 2014)! You can't blame the electorate for voting for the binary choice that was put before them. For anything more we'd have needed better politicians or at the very least better draftsmen! Now all we ask of them is that they deliver on the result that didn't go the way they thought it would, and make good on their repeated promises. It seems reasonable enough to me, but then perhaps I don't understand the basic principle of participatory democracy?!
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
What you are using for "evidence" that the Remainers lied is just an easy attempt to use pretty normal exaggerations during a campaign.
As for Cameron's 3rd WW prediction*: I am pretty sure that this kind of rhetoric has been used 10 fold on the Brexit side.
As for the European Army: I have told you several times now: This idea was non-existent until Donald Trump became president and smashed the Nato Alliance by not repeating their defense promise for Europe.
Nobody could foresee that an US president would basically opt out from Nato until then.
As for the carmakers: Just yesterday, PSA has announced that in the event of a Hard Brexit, the Vauxhall Astra production COULD be moved somewhere else. Basically every other carmaker has announced the same thing in the event of a Hard Brexit and Airbus has predicted to move production out of the UK.
Your unemployment rate may be (still) good - Brexit has not happened yet, but your currency has tanked in the last months, investment in industrial sector is basically nonexistent anymore, parts of the financial sector have been moved, prices in supermarkets went up and you still say that your economy is doing great - aside from stockpiling from the industrial sector to get prepared.
What you are using as "evidence" - particularly by comparing them to what and how things have been done on the Brexit side is just a cheap shot which will only convince the superficial reader.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
"Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? I would never be so rash to make that assumption,” said Cameron. Touching upon Britain’s warring past, Cameron continued by saying: "what happens in our neighbourhood matters to Britain. That was true in 1914, 1940, 1989.... and it is true in 2016." “We should listen to the voices that say Europe had a violent history, we've managed to avoid that and so why put at risk the things that achieve that?" Cameron continued.
So, no, Cameron did not predict that WW3 would come up on us in the event of Brexit.
He was highlighting the horrors in Europe from past wars and said, that this stability and peace that we have since 1945 may be weakened, if parts of Europe fall apart by exiting out of the EU.
Brexit has not happened yet, so we are not able to seriously verify that prediction but I fear that he was not totally wrong with that.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I think it’s a bit of a stretch to go from Cameron’s warning not to ignore the lessons of the past, to the heightened prospect of war if countries leave the EU. Membership of the EU started some 30 years after the last war but there were no major European conflicts in between. I doubt that Britain’s exit will lead to either the breakdown of peace or other countries leaving the EU, many of whom benefit significantly from membership.
If the UK are leaving the EU, that would certainly not improve peace and stability in Europe.
And I certainly hope that we can all agree that Cameron did not predict a WW3 in the event of a Brexit, so that part of TP‘s comment was highly exaggerated by interpretation.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
It merely symbololises Britain: "some chicken, some neck." It's about time that we return to a belief in ourselves as UK citizens and curtailed the three years of national self-doubt projected on the world stage.
a bit strange to hear triumph songs like that about the harm that has been done to others , neighbours caused by a solely selfish action - particularly when the own country will bleed far more.
Cheers to populism and nationalism! {[]
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Apparently the EU don't expect the UK to leave, as they're
Still factoring in our payments in their budget )
You see that's really why they don't want us to leave and are trying to obstruct the outcome of the referendum so vigorously. Their only loyalty is to money. That's not surprising as they need plenty of it to keep bailing out countries who should never have been in the EU in the first place! They're bled dry, to borrow a phrase.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
SM, I know that you are far too intelligent for that.
You are well aware that the payments are for commitments that have been made, for pensions ( also for UK citizens) for bridges, streets that have been already begun and so on.
It‘s not that the UK are paying a goodbye gift, but the UK should do what was mutually agreed and signed.
You should be better than this kind of nonsense.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
And just, if the UK should really fail to pay for what they have promised, this will have effects on their national credit rating and you can go whistle ( to use a Johnson Quote) with further trade talks with the EU.
Then not even FTA terms will be the result in failing to pay for their obligations.
And there will be a lot of unfinished bridges and streets if the UK suddenly fail to follow their commitments.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
It amuses me that Alastair Campbell has said he's leaving the Labour party.
I wonder if this leaving will be " Hard or soft " or will he demand a second
vote, as to whether he should leave at all )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
SM, I know that you are far too intelligent for that.
You are well aware that the payments are for commitments that have been made, for pensions ( also for UK citizens) for bridges, streets that have been already begun and so on.
It‘s not that the UK are paying a goodbye gift, but the UK should do what was mutually agreed and signed.
You should be better than this kind of nonsense.
Thank you, Higgins. It's very kind of you to say that. I respect your knowledge of the EU; it no doubt far outweighs mine! I did study the legal side of the EU more than the political integration side.
I think the UK has always paid its bills. Just look at the World War II debt to the United States and Canada for the best possible example of that. That massive debt was only fully paid back in 2006.* I don't expect the UK to behave any differently now. I think that I made that point before either here or at the other place. We are a nation that keeps our word.
It amuses me that Alastair Campbell has said he's leaving the Labour party.
I wonder if this leaving will be " Hard or soft " or will he demand a second
vote, as to whether he should leave at all )
I'm not sure why he's in the current Labour Party at all as a proponent of New Labour. He's much closer to being a Thatcherite than a dyed-in-the-wool socialist, which is currently in vogue in Corbyn's Labour! He'll probably go and join the Lib Dems now as he voted for them in the recent European parliamentary elections.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Boris went to Scotland and was shown the back door. He went to Wales and was given a chicken. With two of the most prominent contributors to this thread being in Northern Ireland, I'm wondering what he got there?
Boris went to Scotland and was shown the back door. He went to Wales and was given a chicken. With two of the most prominent contributors to this thread being in Northern Ireland, I'm wondering what he got there?
We do know that Boris had a private dinner with the DUP on Tuesday 30 July when he visited NI. The Conservatives rely on the ten DUP MPs to hold a very slim majority of just two in the House of Commons.
This slim majority may be reduced to just one if the Conservatives lose their seat in the Brecon and Radnorshire by-election being held today due to a recall petition after Chris Davies MP was convicted of filing false expenses. Davies was reselected to run as the Conservative candidate in the constituency again.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Comments
It's not that simple. The Brexit referendum process was hugely flawed in my opinion. A referendum question should be very clear and precise. Instead people were asked if they wanted the UK to remain in the EU or do something else. "Something else" got the most votes. That could mean anything from a hard Brexit, a trade deal only, an EEA membership, May's deal and probably a lot of other things. That referendum almost had to end in chaos after the Brexit side won. The proper way to do it is what solution has the most support in the people and Parliament (speaking to the party leaders at a minimum), then negotiate with the EU. Only then it's time for a referendum. The people get a clear choice. Referendums results should be open to as little interpretation as possible, but what you got was a result that was open to every intepretation exept Remain. Ironically that leads to exactly that, or it has done so far.
Argument
Remain or leave ?
( it was also made clear by the remain side that
Leaving meant leaving " everything "
As already pointed out only the Brexit side told lies,
The Remain side just made predictions.
That's not really the fault of the UK electorate though, is it? Blame the political Establishment that thought it was going to wing it and win yet another referendum (after the ones in 2011 and 2014)! You can't blame the electorate for voting for the binary choice that was put before them. For anything more we'd have needed better politicians or at the very least better draftsmen! Now all we ask of them is that they deliver on the result that didn't go the way they thought it would, and make good on their repeated promises. It seems reasonable enough to me, but then perhaps I don't understand the basic principle of participatory democracy?!
What you are using for "evidence" that the Remainers lied is just an easy attempt to use pretty normal exaggerations during a campaign.
As for Cameron's 3rd WW prediction*: I am pretty sure that this kind of rhetoric has been used 10 fold on the Brexit side.
As for the European Army: I have told you several times now: This idea was non-existent until Donald Trump became president and smashed the Nato Alliance by not repeating their defense promise for Europe.
Nobody could foresee that an US president would basically opt out from Nato until then.
As for the carmakers: Just yesterday, PSA has announced that in the event of a Hard Brexit, the Vauxhall Astra production COULD be moved somewhere else. Basically every other carmaker has announced the same thing in the event of a Hard Brexit and Airbus has predicted to move production out of the UK.
Your unemployment rate may be (still) good - Brexit has not happened yet, but your currency has tanked in the last months, investment in industrial sector is basically nonexistent anymore, parts of the financial sector have been moved, prices in supermarkets went up and you still say that your economy is doing great - aside from stockpiling from the industrial sector to get prepared.
What you are using as "evidence" - particularly by comparing them to what and how things have been done on the Brexit side is just a cheap shot which will only convince the superficial reader.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
"Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? I would never be so rash to make that assumption,” said Cameron. Touching upon Britain’s warring past, Cameron continued by saying: "what happens in our neighbourhood matters to Britain. That was true in 1914, 1940, 1989.... and it is true in 2016." “We should listen to the voices that say Europe had a violent history, we've managed to avoid that and so why put at risk the things that achieve that?" Cameron continued.
So, no, Cameron did not predict that WW3 would come up on us in the event of Brexit.
He was highlighting the horrors in Europe from past wars and said, that this stability and peace that we have since 1945 may be weakened, if parts of Europe fall apart by exiting out of the EU.
Brexit has not happened yet, so we are not able to seriously verify that prediction but I fear that he was not totally wrong with that.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
If the UK are leaving the EU, that would certainly not improve peace and stability in Europe.
And I certainly hope that we can all agree that Cameron did not predict a WW3 in the event of a Brexit, so that part of TP‘s comment was highly exaggerated by interpretation.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
It merely symbololises Britain: "some chicken, some neck." It's about time that we return to a belief in ourselves as UK citizens and curtailed the three years of national self-doubt projected on the world stage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIlCJShGiS4
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I'm sure the EU will lose a few feathers, yes. It already has as far as I can see. :007)
Cheers to populism and nationalism! {[]
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Still factoring in our payments in their budget
You see that's really why they don't want us to leave and are trying to obstruct the outcome of the referendum so vigorously. Their only loyalty is to money. That's not surprising as they need plenty of it to keep bailing out countries who should never have been in the EU in the first place! They're bled dry, to borrow a phrase.
You are well aware that the payments are for commitments that have been made, for pensions ( also for UK citizens) for bridges, streets that have been already begun and so on.
It‘s not that the UK are paying a goodbye gift, but the UK should do what was mutually agreed and signed.
You should be better than this kind of nonsense.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Then not even FTA terms will be the result in failing to pay for their obligations.
And there will be a lot of unfinished bridges and streets if the UK suddenly fail to follow their commitments.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I wonder if this leaving will be " Hard or soft " or will he demand a second
vote, as to whether he should leave at all
Thank you, Higgins. It's very kind of you to say that. I respect your knowledge of the EU; it no doubt far outweighs mine! I did study the legal side of the EU more than the political integration side.
I think the UK has always paid its bills. Just look at the World War II debt to the United States and Canada for the best possible example of that. That massive debt was only fully paid back in 2006.* I don't expect the UK to behave any differently now. I think that I made that point before either here or at the other place. We are a nation that keeps our word.
*http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6215847.stm
I'm not sure why he's in the current Labour Party at all as a proponent of New Labour. He's much closer to being a Thatcherite than a dyed-in-the-wool socialist, which is currently in vogue in Corbyn's Labour! He'll probably go and join the Lib Dems now as he voted for them in the recent European parliamentary elections.
I guess we do respect "commitments"
Now we have it.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kMnE80UITU
We do know that Boris had a private dinner with the DUP on Tuesday 30 July when he visited NI. The Conservatives rely on the ten DUP MPs to hold a very slim majority of just two in the House of Commons.
This slim majority may be reduced to just one if the Conservatives lose their seat in the Brecon and Radnorshire by-election being held today due to a recall petition after Chris Davies MP was convicted of filing false expenses. Davies was reselected to run as the Conservative candidate in the constituency again.