Largest shift between 2 consecutive Bond movies

Higgins

Barbel and myself had a disagreement (and for a long time one where he did not threaten me to get banned ) in another thread.

My opinion: TWMTGG --> TSWLM has the largest shift from any Bond Movie.
Barbel thinks, that the gap between DAD --> CR is larger.

What do you think?

Thunderpussy

Ohmss --> DAF

Barbel

In the other thread, Higgins felt that TMWTGG to TSWLM was the point at which Bond changes from spy to superhero. While agreeing that there was a major shift in tone between those two movies, I believe that particular change happened long before this point* and the contrasts between DAD and CR are greater.

I think the change from bowler-hatted midgets to steel-toothed giants is less significant than that between invisible cars and having one's balls attacked with a knotted rope, and that Spy is a deliberately formulaic 007 film (with boxes almost visibly being ticked at regular intervals) while Man is a lazily formulaic one. CR was deliberately anti-formula (you don't need me to list the points**) and succeeded, while DAD made an attempt to be different (1st bit) while still keeping the formula (2nd bit) and most reckon it failed.

* but that's a different argument.

** do you?

Higgins

I think, most of this debate is a clash between an "down to earth - normal working class guy" (me) and philosophical, intellectual dreamers like Barbel

He'll tell you about theoretic layouts and drafts, theories and traditions while I put the movies in the player and judge them from what I see and hear.

While I may agree that the old spydays have been over after OHMSS, it kind of returned in LALD.
To me, 007 was still a usual spy in TMWTGG and that changed dramatically with TSWLM and the budget was bigger, the action by a mile more spectacular , the Stromberg Set and the Liparus miniatures simply stunning and all that gave the franchise a totally new level.

Barbel

"Philosophical, intellectual"???? "Dreamer", yes, granted!

And since when were you working class and normal? You're rich and elite!

Higgins

) ) )

You are not Eva Green, so you don't look good naked!

Barbel

Now there I agree! ) ) )

(Edit- added an extra line to previous post which you may not have seen)

Barbel

Thunderpussy wrote:

Ohmss --> DAF

Yes, a definite change there but more of an attempted return to the earlier style.

Higgins

Barbel wrote:

(Edit- added an extra line to previous post which you may not have seen)

I've seen it and have asked my personel to sue you

IcePak

YOLT to OHMSS to DAF
Bond as superhero, to Bond as spy, and back again.

LTK to GE
A Flemmingesque depiction of Bond to a superhero one.

DAD to CR
Bond the superhero to Bond the fledgling spy

Barbel

Higgins wrote:

I've seen it and have asked my personel to sue you

Let me know when your butler returns.

Barbel

IcePak wrote:

YOLT to OHMSS to DAF
Bond as superhero, to Bond as spy, and back again.

LTK to GE
A Flemmingesque depiction of Bond to a superhero one.

DAD to CR
Bond the superhero to Bond the fledgling spy

Thanks, IcePak, all good points. Any thoughts re TMWTGG to TSWLM?

Revolver66

DAD to CR is definitely the biggest shift in my opinion )

welshboy78

I would prob also go for DAD to CR

DAD - invisible cars, crazy weapons of destruction (and plastic surgery) ) the height of Bond craziness for me

CR - bang, back to earth

Matt S

I think the biggest shirts of the series are:
FRWL to GF
OHMSS to DAF
MR to FYEO
LTK to GE
DAD to CR

I think the biggest shift is from LTK to GE. It's the change in management that makes the difference seem so big to me. It's hard to place my finger on what exactly changed when Cubby left that makes the Bond films without him seem so different to the ones that were made with him. Brosnan's Bond just seemed less believable than all the Bonds that came before him. Then Daniel Craig changed things, but I still never found his Bond any more believable than Brosnan's.

CoolHandBond

I agree with TP, OHMSS to DAF. We go from the best ever Bond movie to a movie with Carry On-esque moments with Wint and Kidd and the switching of cassettes hidden in bikini bottoms.

caractacus potts

sure the change to Casino Royale was by far the biggest shift, aggressively so
some of the other shifts mentioned were also bigger too
but it is true that The Spy Who Loved Me was a major change in approach from the last three (or four) films

most definitely in scale: it came out the same year as Star Wars and was on a comparable scale, with the Liparus and Atlantis being as impressive as the Death Star ... also all those desert scenes (with ancient ruins), and the Lotus much like all those spaceships
whereas the previous three movies looked like early 70s car chase movies in comparison, double feature fare

also the humour: Roger's funny before and after, but somehow the positioning of the jokes has shifted...
for example, in LaLD, its almost like a deconstructed parody of the genre, with the foppish white gentleman spy completely out of place in Harlem, babbling about wine vintages to Mr Big, then doing that crosseyed doubletake midsentence after one of the thugs blackjacks him in the back of the head ... outdated fantasy hero placed in a "real world" situation and exposing the inherent silliness

whereas Spy runs unashamedly with the fantasy aspect, like an old Errol Flynn swashbuckler ... when Roger jokes in this one its a wholistic part of the fantasy, like we expect our cinematic hero to be enjoying his adventure

this all is coincident with the shift in Hollywood filmmaking at the same time, from cynical subversive New Hollywood to escapist bigbudget popcorn blockbusters. I don't think Brocolli had any way of knowing George Lucas would be permanently changing the standards of the film industry the same year this new film came out, somehow he just made a similar stylistic shift at exactly the same time

Jarvio

In terms of style, tone etc, DAD-CR.

In terms of advances in technology, LTK-GE because of the hiatus.

Barbel

Matt S wrote:

I think the biggest shirts of the series are:

Richard Kiel's, Dave Bautista's, and maybe Robbie Coltrane's.

...sorry... ;%

Matt S

Barbel wrote:

Matt S wrote:

I think the biggest shirts of the series are:

Richard Kiel's, Dave Bautista's, and maybe Robbie Coltrane's.

...sorry... ;%

Definitely Robbie Coltrane's. The letters are next to each other, and the lowercase glyphs look so similar at this small size.

chrisisall

I'd go with DAD>CR as well. To paraphrase Bond, "Never argue with Barbel; he's always right."

Barbel

We all do typos, Matt S, I was just having fun with words (I can never resist puns, the worse the better). And I remember seeing Coltrane's Zukovsky shirt at an exhibition and thinking that a family of four could live happily inside there for a week! )

And no, chrisisall, I'm not- I was 100% sure that Brosnan would be back for Bond 21!

Gassy Man

Overall, From Russia with Love to Goldfinger. The first two Bond films were fairly serious and somewhat old-fashioned in their approach. Dr. No could have been made in the 1950s, and From Russia with Love was a cousin of North by Northwest, with some David Lean sensibilities. But Goldfinger took the films in a completely different direction. It's routinely played for laughs and meant to be over-the-top, presupposing the camp fad that would take over television and film a year or two later -- it's not campy, but it signals a major shift in both tone and execution for Bond movies.

A second "seismic" shift occurred from You Only Live Twice to On Her Majesty's Secret Service. The former film is the last to have that "1960s" feel in cinematography and style. The latter film had much more in common with what would be the films of the 1970s and 1980s, from more reliance on close ups and odd angles to tougher and longer action sequences to a kind of spareness to many of the visuals. Though there are a few "crowd" scenes, the camera angles are tighter and the cuts faster, and action is meant to be more intimate, making things just feel "smaller." The film still has some of the sweep of the earlier Bonds, but like many contemporary Bonds, there are more scenes of one or two actors in large settings rather than the more epic feel of the earlier Bonds.

The rest of the shifts mostly feel like back and forths among the various styles. The Spy Who Loved Me tries to return to the style of You Only Live Twice, only with a blowed-dry, disco feel. The same for Moonraker. For Your Eyes Only is an attempt to mimic On Her Majesty's Secret Service, as is Goldeneye to some degree, though that film just seems like a cheap cable TV movie all-around.

Casino Royale more or less looks like a Brosnan era film in its style and cinematography, but it tries to return to the 1960s films in terms of being more character-driven and playing on Bond's mojo. We hadn't real seen an old-fashioned Bond since then, in the sense that his masculinity is both clearly defined, and he makes no apologies for it. Craig embodies the type well -- the best since Connery. And even if the film falls short in terms of having the 1960s films' sweep and style, it's the closest thing we'd seen in 40 years. In this sense, it's more a return to form that a complete shift to something.

Revolver66

=Gassy Man]Overall, From Russia with Love to Goldfinger. The first two Bond films were fairly serious and somewhat old-fashioned in their approach. Dr. No could have been made in the 1950s, and From Russia with Love was a cousin of North by Northwest, with some David Lean sensibilities.

I'm intrigued by this statement Gassy Man. Besides the helicopter scene, what sticks out in From Russia With Love for you that reminds you of North by Northwest and David Leans films?

Revolver66

Interesting thread so I thought I might expand upon my previous answer ) For me I would say that the largest shift is from Die Another Day to Casino Royale. Whilst the other films that this thread has mentioned are all periods where the films shift in style , with some containing sizable shifts, I would have to say that DAD to CR takes the cake. Die Another Day is the cinematic Bond formula amped up to 100, with the added factor that it goes into science fiction territory in the second half. It has all the Bond tropes (Q, Moneypenny, gadgets, over the top villain and henchmen, femme fatale etc) and also has an incredibe amount of CGI, which is unusual for a Bond film. Casino does away with practically all of this and starts from scratch with a new actor, portraying a new inexperienced Bond. He hasn't even gotten his 00 licence at the start of the fim. In fact, look at both films pre-titles sequences as evidence. They couldn't be more different. It's a hard reboot, a completely new start and couldn't be further away from Die Another Day. Also the shift in film quality is most drastic here. I know that Die Another Day has its fans on here but in the context of the general public and critics I'd say that its almost considered the worst in the series, and if its not, it's almost always ranked in the bottom 5. Whereas Casino Royale is seemingly always considered by the general public and critics to be in the top 2 or 3 Bond films. I'd say that this, coupled with the completely contrasting film styles, story elements, and lack of Bond tropes make this the biggest shift for me

Gassy Man

Revolver66 wrote:

=Gassy Man]Overall, From Russia with Love to Goldfinger. The first two Bond films were fairly serious and somewhat old-fashioned in their approach. Dr. No could have been made in the 1950s, and From Russia with Love was a cousin of North by Northwest, with some David Lean sensibilities.

I'm intrigued by this statement Gassy Man. Besides the helicopter scene, what sticks out in From Russia With Love for you that reminds you of North by Northwest and David Leans films?

Some concerns plot and character elements vis a vis North by Northwest -- romance and intrigue aboard a train; a mysterious blond who seduces the hero but may or may not be working for the enemy; theft of a "maguffin" driving the story (the Lektor; the microfilm) but having little to do with the goings on; a psychotic (and implied homosexual) henchman whose hatred for the hero transcends merely being a foe -- and others with production -- Grant and Bond wear similar suits; the slightly muted technicolor cinematography and similar color palette reminds me of Lawrence of Arabia, as do some of the visual stylings and camera angles/lensing.

For instance, both films use a kind of fisheye lens with an actor in the foreground to give the background more depth and scope but also a slight curved quality -- this was a shot that Lean really helped popularize and would use again in other films, like Dr. Zhivago. Unlike modern films, there's an attempt to make sure the background has long depth of field and both breadth and height in shots:

Gassy Man

With regard to the suit thing:

Revolver66

Fascinating Thanks for sharing that. North by Northwest and Lawrence of Arabia are two of my favourite films so I found that quite interesting. I definitely see the links with North by and I see what you mean with the fish eye.

Chriscoop

Im definitely in the dad to cr camp, I can see the points others have are valid, but the large shift in formula does it for me.

Manxman

I'd have said the biggest shift was A View To A Kill to The Living Daylights — from campy Moore fantasy back to a true spy film (for the first time since From Russia With Love).

Matt S

Manxman wrote:

I'd have said the biggest shift was A View To A Kill to The Living Daylights — from campy Moore fantasy back to a true spy film (for the first time since From Russia With Love).

There really wasn't such a big change there. Moore's 80s films had a lot of serious moments and a few dark moments. TLD has some campier Moore-esque moments, such as Bond taking an hour to spend with the girl on the boat or the car chase. The balance of the elements changed from AVTAK to TLD, but the same elements are there along with the same director handling those moments the same way. The only difference between Moore's later films and TLD is that the campier moments were cut back, but the rest stayed the same. FYEO is fairly close to FRWL in tone, and it's a try spy film. Using elements prominently from three of Fleming's stories helped. Octopussy's many serious moments aren't so far off from TLD either.