The real James Bonds watch

Biffy

Hi all. I'm new to this site and have in my possession a vintage watch engraved Wilfred Biffy Dunderdale who is widely regarded as the basis for the James Bond character.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8017038/Real-James-Bond-revealed-in-MI6-archives.html

I just wondered if you thought this was significant and if any museums may be keen to acquire and show this item?

The_Commander

Hello and welcome.

Do you have any provenance for the watch, other than it being engraved. What is the watch, make and model? I'm sure that with a little more info, the members here will be able to help further, especially on the question of significance.

Now then, where can I get any more info on my Freddie Mercury inscribed codpiece? Thunderpussy perhaps?? ;%

Biffy

Hi and thanks for the reply.

Yes I have fully provenance for the watch as my wife's grandfather served alongside him in WWII. I have several other letters etc. As to the make and model I will post details and pics when I get chance later this week.

Commandant

Welcome to the forum.
Interesting story.

Chriscoop

Would love to see some photographs, I also find the story interesting, welcome Biffy

Higgins

hope that the watch is not an Omeeegah

Donald Grant

The Biffy Dunderdale story is an old one. If you have been interested in the James Bond character as long and read about him as widely as I have you will have come across him as THE person who informed James Bond at one time or another. However there are also others. Most notably Patrick Dalzel Job, a member of Fleming's own 30 AU. It is pretty widely accepted that the charachter of James Bond is a pastiche made of of various people that Fleming met in the intelligence/commando community during his time as the DNI's right hand man while WWII was being waged. That pastiche is also liberally sprinkled with elements of Fleming as well.

As to Biffy's watch, I would love to see it. But calling it THE watch is a little like saying Ian Feming's 1016 Rolex Explorer is the literary James Bomd's watch. It is just not true or, since we are speaking of watches, accurate.

DG

welshboy78

Look forward to seeing the watch....

James Brosnan

Thanks for the perspective Donald Grant. Very interesting. -{

Donald Grant

James Brosnan wrote:

Thanks for the perspective Donald Grant. Very interesting. -{

Glad you are interested in what I've said James Brosnan.

To give a little more perspective, what watch did the following people wear ( a modest survey of the people who informed the charachter of James Bond)?:

Patrick Dalzel-Job

Peter Fleming (Ian's brother)

William Stephenson

Sidney Reily

Dusko Popov



DG

Miles Messervy

Donald Grant wrote:

James Brosnan wrote:

Thanks for the perspective Donald Grant. Very interesting. -{

Glad you are interested in what I've said James Brosnan.

To give a little more perspective, what watch did the following people wear ( a modest survey of the people who informed the charachter of James Bond)?:

Patrick Dalzel-Job

Peter Fleming (Ian's brother)

William Stephenson

Sidney Reily

Dusko Popov



DG

Unless the OP has been edited, I don't think he stated that the watch in his possession is "THE watch." I'd still like to see it though.

Donald Grant

Miles Messervy wrote:

Donald Grant wrote:

James Brosnan wrote:

Thanks for the perspective Donald Grant. Very interesting. -{

Glad you are interested in what I've said James Brosnan.

To give a little more perspective, what watch did the following people wear ( a modest survey of the people who informed the charachter of James Bond)?:

Patrick Dalzel-Job

Peter Fleming (Ian's brother)

William Stephenson

Sidney Reily

Dusko Popov



DG

Unless the OP has been edited, I don't think he stated that the watch in his possession is "THE watch." I'd still like to see it though.

I'd like to see the watch as well, but Biffy did use the following language:

"Dunderdale who is widely regarded as the basis for the James Bond character"

DG

Matt S

Donald Grant wrote:

I'd like to see the watch as well, but Biffy did use the following language:

"Dunderdale who is widely regarded as the basis for the James Bond character"

DG

It doesn't mean he meant that the watch had any basis for Bond's watch. The "real" in the title refers to "James Bonds", not "watch". We'll have to wait and see if it's a Rolex or something else before we jump to conclusions. But I would also be interested to see the watch.

Donald Grant

Matt S wrote:

Donald Grant wrote:

I'd like to see the watch as well, but Biffy did use the following language:

"Dunderdale who is widely regarded as the basis for the James Bond character"

DG

It doesn't mean he meant that the watch had any basis for Bond's watch. The "real" in the title refers to "James Bonds", not "watch". We'll have to wait and see if it's a Rolex or something else before we jump to conclusions. But I would also be interested to see the watch.

This thread is titled "The Real James Bond Watch" and if Dunderdale is considered the real James Bond then his watch would be the real James Bond watch. I understand, but apparently you don't.

I'd like to see the watch too.

DG

James Brosnan

Donald Grant wrote:

James Brosnan wrote:

Thanks for the perspective Donald Grant. Very interesting. -{

Glad you are interested in what I've said James Brosnan.

To give a little more perspective, what watch did the following people wear ( a modest survey of the people who informed the charachter of James Bond)?:

Patrick Dalzel-Job

Peter Fleming (Ian's brother)

William Stephenson

Sidney Reily

Dusko Popov



DG

Do we know what watch these people wore? That would be interesting to know. I wonder how much influence the watches these folks wore had on flemmings own watch choices and his choice for James Bond's watch. Been a while since I've read OHMSS, but didn't he specificially mention Rolex in that book?

Charmed & Dangerous

James Brosnan wrote:

Do we know what watch these people wore? That would be interesting to know. I wonder how much influence the watches these folks wore had on flemmings own watch choices and his choice for James Bond's watch. Been a while since I've read OHMSS, but didn't he specificially mention Rolex in that book?

Yes, he does specifically refer to Rolex.

And forgive me for this but it's my pet hate X-( , but it's Fleming not flemming, which always reminds me of...

Miles Messervy

Donald Grant wrote:

Matt S wrote:

Donald Grant wrote:

I'd like to see the watch as well, but Biffy did use the following language:

"Dunderdale who is widely regarded as the basis for the James Bond character"

DG

It doesn't mean he meant that the watch had any basis for Bond's watch. The "real" in the title refers to "James Bonds", not "watch". We'll have to wait and see if it's a Rolex or something else before we jump to conclusions. But I would also be interested to see the watch.

This thread is titled "The Real James Bond Watch"

DG

Actually, the title is "The Real James Bonds Watch." The missing apostrophe might be causing the confusion. Even as I type this, I realize that the discussion has become trite. My apologies for that. -{

Matt S

Miles Messervy wrote:

Donald Grant wrote:

Matt S wrote:

It doesn't mean he meant that the watch had any basis for Bond's watch. The "real" in the title refers to "James Bonds", not "watch". We'll have to wait and see if it's a Rolex or something else before we jump to conclusions. But I would also be interested to see the watch.

This thread is titled "The Real James Bond Watch"

DG

Actually, the title is "The Real James Bonds Watch." The missing apostrophe might be causing the confusion. Even as I type this, I realize that the discussion has become trite. My apologies for that. -{

This was what I was thinking, that there is supposed to be an apostrophe as they are commonly left out or misused online.

Donald Grant

Miles Messervy wrote:

Donald Grant wrote:

Matt S wrote:

It doesn't mean he meant that the watch had any basis for Bond's watch. The "real" in the title refers to "James Bonds", not "watch". We'll have to wait and see if it's a Rolex or something else before we jump to conclusions. But I would also be interested to see the watch.

This thread is titled "The Real James Bond Watch"

DG

Actually, the title is "The Real James Bonds Watch." The missing apostrophe might be causing the confusion. Even as I type this, I realize that the discussion has become trite. My apologies for that. -{

Quite right. I stand corrected. However, the intent is still the same. What watch did the real James Bond wear? In this instance it has been posited that the real James Bond was Biffy Dunderdale.

DG

James Brosnan

Charmed & Dangerous wrote:

James Brosnan wrote:

Do we know what watch these people wore? That would be interesting to know. I wonder how much influence the watches these folks wore had on flemmings own watch choices and his choice for James Bond's watch. Been a while since I've read OHMSS, but didn't he specificially mention Rolex in that book?

Yes, he does specifically refer to Rolex.

And forgive me for this but it's my pet hate X-( , but it's Fleming not flemming, which always reminds me of...

) no worries man. I've got those things that get under my skin too. Actually, people correcting my spelling is one of those things ), but seeing as my spelling leaves something to be desired in general and it was a pet peeve of yours, I completely understand you feeling the need to call me out on it. Additionally, now I will always spell Fleming properly, so I got something out of it too.

Thanks for the response. It was a Rolex Oyster Perpetual right? So, I'm guessing people assume that his usual watch was a Rolex Explorer because Fleming wore one.

Donald Grant

James Brosnan wrote:

Charmed & Dangerous wrote:

James Brosnan wrote:

Do we know what watch these people wore? That would be interesting to know. I wonder how much influence the watches these folks wore had on flemmings own watch choices and his choice for James Bond's watch. Been a while since I've read OHMSS, but didn't he specificially mention Rolex in that book?

Yes, he does specifically refer to Rolex.

And forgive me for this but it's my pet hate X-( , but it's Fleming not flemming, which always reminds me of...

) no worries man. I've got those things that get under my skin too. Actually, people correcting my spelling is one of those things ), but seeing as my spelling leaves something to be desired in general and it was a pet peeve of yours, I completely understand you feeling the need to call me out on it. Additionally, now I will always spell Fleming properly, so I got something out of it too.

Thanks for the response. It was a Rolex Oyster Perpetual right? So, I'm guessing people assume that his usual watch was a Rolex Explorer because Fleming wore one.

Yes, that is correct. A Rolex Oyster Perpetual and yes Ian Fleming owned a 1016 Rolex Explorer when OHMSS was written. Around the same time when Dr. No was being filmed. However Fleming did not own the Explorer when he wrote LALD which also featured a Rolex Oyster Perpetual worn by James Bond.

DG

Donald Grant

To be clear, LALD was Fleming's second Bond book and was published in 1954. OHMSS was Fleming's eleventh Bond book and published in 1963.

DG

Asp9mm

Donald Grant wrote:

To be clear, LALD was Fleming's second Bond book and was published in 1954. OHMSS was Fleming's eleventh Bond book and published in 1963.

DG

And in LALD, Bond dives... A LOT :v

Donald Grant

Asp9mm wrote:

Donald Grant wrote:

To be clear, LALD was Fleming's second Bond book and was published in 1954. OHMSS was Fleming's eleventh Bond book and published in 1963.

DG

And in LALD, Bond dives... A LOT :v

Yes, and that is precisely the point. You can imagine any Rolex onto Bond's wrist as long as it is an Oyster Perpetual. Evidently that is precisely what Broccoli and Saltzmen did when they put a Rolex Submariner on the wrist of Sean Connery in the first scenes of Dr. No filmed in Jamaica. Notice I said first scenes filmed, not the first scenes that appear on screen. All this despite the fact that Fleming wandered onto the set of Dr. No in Jamaica apparently wearing an Explorer.

DG

Herr Michael

What's the hold up on these photos?

Asp9mm

I don't think we'll be seeing them anytime soon )

Matt S

Would the Explorer have served Bond as well underwater as the Submariner?

Asp9mm

Matt S wrote:

Would the Explorer have served Bond as well underwater as the Submariner?

No.

Matt S

Asp9mm wrote:

Matt S wrote:

Would the Explorer have served Bond as well underwater as the Submariner?

No.

Ah, so that's why the Explorer theory doesn't hold up well.

Asp9mm

RN divers were issued early Submariners, Fleming was an avid diver and loved new gimmicks. Subs have expandable bracelets and luminous numerals, as did the Explorer. But Fleming describes the watch as large/heavy. A description you couldn't really apply to the Explorer back then. There is slightly more evidence to suggest Fleming would have given Bond a Sub, but then he himself many years later bought an Explorer. Or did he? Is there any evidence to suggest he bought it himself, or was it a gift from Anne? If Fleming had the Explorer BEFORE he wrote Bond wearing a Rolex, then the case would be stronger for the Explorer. But he didn't. We will never know what Fleming had in mind when first equiping Bond. It's fun talking about it though.

Matt S

Asp9mm wrote:

RN divers were issued early Submariners, Fleming was an avid diver and loved new gimmicks. Subs have expandable bracelets and luminous numerals, as did the Explorer. But Fleming describes the watch as large/heavy. A description you couldn't really apply to the Explorer back then. There is slightly more evidence to suggest Fleming would have given Bond a Sub, but then he himself many years later bought an Explorer. Or did he? Is there any evidence to suggest he bought it himself, or was it a gift from Anne? If Fleming had the Explorer BEFORE he wrote Bond wearing a Rolex, then the case would be stronger for the Explorer. But he didn't. We will never know what Fleming had in mind when first equiping Bond. It's fun talking about it though.

It is fun. When he wrote LALD, the Sub was brand new, and the fact that he liked the latest gadgets and that Bond would have new technology meant that the Sub was a possible choice. It's not wrong to assume that Fleming could have given Bond his own watch as Fleming gave Bond many of his own traits, and it's possible Fleming himself may have even owned an early Submariner. Because it was a large/heavy watch (but not by today's standards), Fleming may have not worn it much if he had one. It's not like Fleming had a Facebook or Instagram and was posting photos of everything he did and everything he wore. There's so much about Fleming nobody will ever know, and there's even less we can know about his characters. But that's all just fun speculation.